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famousmortimer · Jun 2, 2013

Seanspeed said:
If the vast majority of consoles sold come with it, then the savings aren't going to be all that great and it just means that NA consumers get a bum deal comapred to everyone else.

I wouldn't rule out it being a part of a higher price sku (though that's me guessing, no one told me that).

And it's only a bum deal if you want it. So that's a personal thing. As someone that isn't buying a X1 because of forced Kinect this was very exciting news to me when I was leaked it (and shared it) back in March and April.

BigDug13 · Jun 2, 2013

Bgamer90 said:
Why should someone who likes it explain that to you?

If you aren't interested in it then you aren't interested in it.

Because I'm hoping someone can make me understand how it really benefits gaming to the point that every system should have one, even if we pay another $50 or $100 for it.

Playsation_ · Jun 2, 2013

I really wasn't expecting this..

Wynnebeck · Jun 2, 2013

Jeez, Sony is damned if they do bundle it, damned if they don't. You guys need to make up your minds.

Bgamer90 · Jun 2, 2013

BigDug13 said:
But wouldn't that feature work a lot better on something like Oculus Rift? It seems like if I turn my head, I'm no longer looking at my TV. So how am I seeing other stuff?

No... My head is still directed towards the TV. I don't have to turn my head that much for the feature to work.

And personally I wouldn't want oculus rift for the feature. I mean, I think the oculus rift is cool but I would be uncomfortable using it for this -- would prefer my head to be free/open.

Bunta · Jun 2, 2013

Seanspeed said:
If the vast majority of consoles sold come with it, then the savings aren't going to be all that great and it just means that NA consumers get a bum deal comapred to everyone else.

Not if they don't want it in the first place.

Zekra Dezivad · Jun 2, 2013

GodofWine said:
Its a DS4 video, if you buy an separate DS4 it will not include a camera, that's all that disclaimer says to me...corporate legal stuff. But I hope it doesn't come with all PS4s.

If the camera is bundled with every PS4 it makes no sense at all selling it seperately.
Why someone would buy something that already come with the console?

If you buy a DS4 controller you'll never have to worry about the camera, because if you have a PS4 you'll have also a PS4 Camera.
If they say "warning, the ds4 doesn't come with a camera, you have to buy it seperately" it means that even if you have the console you might not have the camera. It makes sense to me

Insane Metal · Jun 2, 2013

gutter_trash said:
I guess it will be:
$349.00 basic SKU
$399.00 deluxe SKU

I hope the deluxe is 1TB (not 1 tuberculosis but 1 Terabyte)

1 SKU only with a 750GB HDD @ $399. BELIEVE.

TheBrain76 · Jun 2, 2013

boredandlazy said:
Maybe they just mean it'll be sold separately from the controller? Rather than being sold separately from the console itself...

This is the first thing I thought. It's a "We have to say this because otherwise some dumbass will see this and then sue us if we don't bundle a camera with every DS4, because yes there ARE some people who are that fucking stupid" legal statment. Don't understand why everyone is missing that.

Holly Caust · Jun 2, 2013

Praise Allah

cyberheater · Jun 2, 2013

Tadger said:
Hardware mem compression/uncompression, may be...just maybe one of the gems..possible

If this turns out to be true. And results in a much higher data throughput. I wonder how close it would come to GDDR5 speeds.

Looks like Tadger is banned. I take it because he was a junior then it's permanent. Sorry to hear that.

Bgamer90 · Jun 2, 2013

boredandlazy said:
Maybe they just mean it'll be sold separately from the controller? Rather than being sold separately from the console itself...

Oh man... Missed this post.

This is a good point.

dagamer34 · Jun 2, 2013

Not including it = wasted R&D (no one will but it), gamers happy.
Including it = pissed off gamers (though Blu-ray did the same thing), but at least developers will make games with it somehow.

So... yeah. Regardless, I don't think it matters about launch price whether its $399 or $499, every system will be sold. The question is how does PSEye affect the price 1 year later when supply is better. It's certainly not the difference between the box costing $399 and $499, maybe adds $20-25 worth of BOM in the end.

As a gamer, I just want to avoid the scenario where because not everyone had a Kinect, the only games developers made where the pandering ones like Dance Central and Kinect Sports. I'd rather see more stuff like Mass Effect 3 with voice recognition.

QaaQer · Jun 2, 2013

Seanspeed said:
The Kinect claimed the Guinness World Record of being the "fastest selling consumer electronics device" after selling a total of 8 million units in its first 60 days.[18][19][20] 24 million units of the Kinect sensor had been shipped as of January 2012.[1]

and that could really hurt them if the majority of those people aren't still using OG kinect. A big reason why the wii u failed, i believe, is that there are a lot of people with wiis that have gone untouched for a long time. Why upgrade to a new wii or kinect if someone isn't using the old one?

Eurocult · Jun 2, 2013

Great news as I never would have plugged that thing in anyway. Hopefully it means $399 or less.

cyberheater · Jun 2, 2013

Insane Metal said:
1 SKU only with a 750GB HDD @ $399. BELIEVE.

Nope.

lostones · Jun 2, 2013

famousmortimer said:
It wasn't an afterthought. They do believe in it. But something had to give when they upped the ram from 4gb to 8. And that was what gave way.

But like I said earlier in this thread it's only in the US that it for sure is not a pack in. I've heard that 'several' EU territories will have it included. I think the reason for this is twofold... many of those territories Sony dominates so they can get away with it... but also in the EU they have a much larger kid demo than they do in the US.

And the approach of packing it in where they can and keeping costs down in territories where that will be more important is pretty damn brilliant. It means there will be enough of them out there for developers to support it (which will then spur on sales of it as an accessory) but it doesn't force it on people who don't want it. Like me. I want nothing to do with that thing.

So they're giving up on US non hardcore gamers essentially interesting ....

qa_engineer · Jun 2, 2013

TheBrain76 said:
This is the first thing I thought. It's a "We have to say this because otherwise some dumbass will see this and then sue us if we don't bundle a camera with every DS4, because yes there ARE some people who are that fucking stupid" legal statment. Don't understand why everyone is missing that.

I sure hope that is the case. They made the current PS EYE optional this gen and we all know how well that did.

#TEAMPSEYEINTHEBOXORBUST

can we make that a thing?

Giant Panda · Jun 2, 2013

Bgamer90 said:
I'm guessing it would have added about $50 to the price of the system.

More like $12-$20. It's two cheap webcams and a mic.

Seanspeed · Jun 2, 2013

ironcreed said:
Indeed, it was an accessory that was optional for those who wanted one, but now it's being forced whether one wants it or not. Many of us don't like the idea of having to mount a bulky camera on our televisions just to be able to use the system period, nor do we have any use for it in general. The least Microsoft could have done is let people use the system without having the damn thing connected. You can't make people like something by forcing it. '

You're not getting that its not merely 'an accessory' anymore. They want it to be the future of how you interact with your entertainment center. Its like calling a controller an optional accessory. They are pushing innovation. And yes, you can make people like something by forcing it if you show that this 'future' is actually really interesting and useful, which it may well be. Dismissing it early without really knowing what potential it has is the epitome of narrow-mindedness.

I remember when cell phones first started getting lots of additional functionality. The vast majority of people I knew couldn't care less and 'just wanted to be able to call people'. Yet once cell phone technology developed and new phones proved capable of some very convenient and useful additional functions(that worked well), pretty much every single one hopped onboard.

It may not interest you at the moment, but we'll see how things turn out in 5-7 years. I'm certainly not writing it off.

QaaQer · Jun 2, 2013

Wickerbasket said:
Just the ones that registered with marketing firm email addresses, according to bish.

I wouldn't worry about that if it's not you.

It certainly makes it harder to trust the new batch of juniors though.

I wish Bish would just make the thread outing them; I'm aware that some consumers genuinely do argue against their own interests, but some of the posts in the DRM threads are ridiculous.

I wish there was an easy way to identify them, not everyone uses an easily traceable email addy.

famousmortimer · Jun 2, 2013

lostones said:
So they're giving up on US non hardcore gamers essentially interesting ....

How in the world did you take that from what I wrote?

Bunta · Jun 2, 2013

lostones said:
So they're giving up on US non hardcore gamers essentially interesting ....

How so? A lower price point can attract more people. If the "casuals" want the PS4 Eye, they can buy it separately.

Monty Mole · Jun 2, 2013

Disappointing for me. Optional means barely any support in games. Was hoping we'd see more Move support, head tracking, in-game squad voice commands etc. Kinect haters will hate, but there is merit in using camera/mics/motion control to enhance the core experience, and not only to replace it.

Bunta said:
How so? A lower price point can attract more people. If the "casuals" want the PS4 Eye, they can buy it separately.

Why not make the controller optional? If the "hardcore" want the DualShock 4, they can buy it separately

BigDug13 · Jun 2, 2013

Bgamer90 said:
No... My head is still directed towards the TV. I don't have to turn my head that much for the feature to work.

And personally I wouldn't want oculus rift for the feature. I mean, I think the oculus rift is cool but I would be uncomfortable using it for this -- would prefer my head to be free/open.

Ok that's cool then if it worked that way. And if that's a genre you enjoy and that feature makes it a bit better, that's good. Not "everyone must buy this with their system for a $50-$100 price hike" good, but good nonetheless. Features like that can be simply added, even if the device isn't mandatory, just like your example as Kinect was never mandatory this gen.

Elios83 · Jun 2, 2013

dagamer34 said:
Not including it = wasted R&D (no one will but it), gamers happy.
Including it = pissed off gamers (though Blu-ray did the same thing), but at least developers will make games with it somehow.

So... yeah. Regardless, I don't think it matters about launch price whether its $399 or $499, every system will be sold. The question is how does PSEye affect the price 1 year later when supply is better. It's certainly not the difference between the box costing $399 and $499, maybe adds $20-25 worth of BOM in the end.

As a gamer, I just want to avoid the scenario where because not everyone had a Kinect, the only games developers made where the pandering ones like Dance Central and Kinect Sports. I'd rather see more stuff like Mass Effect 3 with voice recognition.

Remember that PS4 will be sold with a headset included.
A microphone will be standard.

140.85 · Jun 2, 2013

boredandlazy said:
Maybe they just mean it'll be sold separately from the controller? Rather than being sold separately from the console itself...

Yeah, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here. That may have been put in to prevent people from thinking you get a camera when you buy a DS4.

I think its a big gamble leaving it out. Better to pack it in in case they need to counter any of Xbones camera featurse if they really take off with consumers and MS is able to leverage that against them at retail.

ironcreed · Jun 2, 2013

Bgamer90 said:
Oh man... Missed this post.

This is a good point.

I'm thinking that is all this means as well. If it comes with the camera, then so be it. But it would still be a strike in the negative column for me.

Seanspeed · Jun 2, 2013

Bunta said:
Not if they don't want it in the first place.

You could always sell it if you really dont want it. Either way, as a NA customer, you'd be getting less for your money than other people. Its a bum deal.

PaNaMa · Jun 2, 2013

I can't believe I'm saying this but my chief concern with the Eye is it won't be nearly as good as Kinect 2.0. Microsoft has invested millions into Kinect 2.0 (and 1.0 for that matter) r&d and has years of "try hard" experience with the first one.. and while still early, it looks l like they've got it to a place where it might actually deliver some fun gaming utility/enhancements/interactivity (hey, I'm trying to be positive about Kinect for once).

Another posted mentioned they worry about a "mee too" approval from Sony, just throwing in a camera and ticking the "yeah we have a camera too" box.. then never doing anything with it. Microsoft has This thing integrated with Xbox at the operating system level. Teams of people devoted to it, etc. Are a similar amount of resources and design being into Eye? I just can't see it. Spec wise, is there a write up on how the two cameras line up ?

Biker19 · Jun 2, 2013

Untalkative_Bunny said:
and that could really hurt them if the majority of those people aren't still using OG kinect. A big reason why the wii u failed, I believe, is that there are a lot of people with wiis that have gone untouched for a long time. Why upgrade to a new wii or kinect if someone isn't using the old one?

I agree, though I don't think a lot of people are going to rush out to buy the Xbox One because of another version of Kinect. The popularity of it has shipped & sailed, just like with the Wii-mote.

Bunta · Jun 2, 2013

Seanspeed said:
You could always sell it if you really dont want it. Either way, as a NA customer, you'd be getting less for your money than other people. Its a bum deal.

You don't think the prices would reflect the fact that the camera would / wouldn't be included?

famousmortimer · Jun 2, 2013

Seanspeed said:
You could always sell it if you really dont want it. Either way, as a NA customer, you'd be getting less for your money than other people. Its a bum deal.

As a NA customer you're getting a lower priced system. Which is far more important.

GodofWine · Jun 2, 2013

Zekra Dezivad said:
If the camera is bundled with every PS4 it makes no sense at all selling it seperately.
Why someone would buy something that already come with the console?

If you buy a DS4 controller you'll never have to worry about the camera, because if you have a PS4 you'll have also a PS4 Camera.
If they say "warning, the ds4 doesn't come with a camera, you have to buy it seperately" it means that even if you have the console you might not have the camera. It makes sense to me

Yea...but corporate legal mumbo jumbo needs to be stated even in almost impossible scenarios.

I think its gonna be packed in, I do, but they will sell DS4s and those DS4s will not include Eyes, so if they show it as a commercial along side an Eye (and a PS4 even) they need to tell you its not sold with them.

NOW, if they make a PS4 commercial and show the Eye, read the fine print and THEN we'll know with certainty (actually E3 will probably come first)

quest · Jun 2, 2013

Great news if this can get the price to 399.99. I think it really is the right move. I think Sony sees that the casual market has moved on to tablets. They are going hard after the core gamers and bro-dudes. I just hope they don't have horrible DRM and making me skip it like the xbone.

Bgamer90 · Jun 2, 2013

Giant Panda said:
More like $12-$20. It's two cheap webcams and a mic.

How many console prices do you see end in $_12 or $_62 up to $_20 or $_70?

I have a feeling that they would just round the price up for the system to either end in $_50 or $_00.

dagamer34 · Jun 2, 2013

Seanspeed said:
If the vast majority of consoles sold come with it, then the savings aren't going to be all that great and it just means that NA consumers get a bum deal comapred to everyone else.

You end up crapping on developers if you include it in some SKUs in some countries and not in others. For example, the lack of an HDD in every Xbox 360 SKU meant that it isn't possible to rely on it being there to act as a cache for the optical drive. It means developers have to deal with 2 scenarios: with a hard drive and without one. Extra work just to save a few bucks... And the thing is, a person who doesn't have a hard drive won't buy TV shows, movies, music or XBLA games. In the end, I don't think it was worth cutting it.

lostones · Jun 2, 2013

famousmortimer said:
How in the world did you take that from what I wrote?

The ps4 is going to be expensive as it is ...making the pseye a peripheral will make it an unrealistic buy for non hardcore gamers. It'll basically be 599 gate for them. It doesn't make sense for us to get less then EU territories for odd reasonings.

Bunta said:
How so? A lower price point can attract more people. If the "casuals" want the PS4 Eye, they can buy it separately.

I doubt casuals will want to buy a peripheral to an already expensive system.

Bunta · Jun 2, 2013

lostones said:
The ps4 is going to be expensive as it is ...making the pseye a peripheral will make it an unrealistic buy for non hardcore gamers. It'll basically be 599 gate for them.

I doubt casuals will want to buy a peripheral to an already expensive system.

Without the eye it would be less expensive than if it were included.

ThoughtsOfSpeaking · Jun 2, 2013

dagamer34 said:
Not including it = wasted R&D (no one will but it), gamers happy.
Including it = pissed off gamers (though Blu-ray did the same thing), but at least developers will make games with it somehow.

So... yeah. Regardless, I don't think it matters about launch price whether its $399 or $499, every system will be sold. The question is how does PSEye affect the price 1 year later when supply is better. It's certainly not the difference between the box costing $399 and $499, maybe adds $20-25 worth of BOM in the end.

As a gamer, I just want to avoid the scenario where because not everyone had a Kinect, the only games developers made where the pandering ones like Dance Central and Kinect Sports. I'd rather see more stuff like Mass Effect 3 with voice recognition.

What kind of R&D are Sony really going to have considering this is their 3rd camera assessory? Id imagine the PSeye4 is just everything sony experiemented with kinect (remember sony rejected it before microsoft bought it) put into a next gen device. Id imagine the R&D costs are negilable.

besides people will still buy the eye for move games so its win/win.

ironcreed · Jun 2, 2013

Seanspeed said:
You're not getting that its not merely 'an accessory' anymore. They want it to be the future of how you interact with your entertainment center. Its like calling a controller an optional accessory. They are pushing innovation. And yes, you can make people like something by forcing it if you show that this 'future' is actually really interesting and useful, which it may well be. Dismissing it early without really knowing what potential it has is the epitome of narrow-mindedness.

I remember when cell phones first started getting lots of additional functionality. The vast majority of people I knew couldn't care less and 'just wanted to be able to call people'. Yet once cell phone technology developed and new phones proved capable of some very convenient and useful additional functions(that worked well), pretty much every single one hopped onboard.

It may not interest you at the moment, but we'll see how things turn out in 5-7 years. I'm certainly not writing it off.

Yes, I am getting that it is not an accessory anymore. My point is that it was introduced as one, and those who had no use for it at least had the luxury of it not being required. Now, those same people who do not like Kinect are having it forced on them if they want the new Xbox.

Again, while it may be exciting and innovative for some, others simply do not want a mandatory camera that has to be connected in order to use the console... period. Not everyone loves Kinect and the fact that it is now an integrated part of the system does not make it all of the sudden more appealing.

King326 · Jun 2, 2013

Would the DS4 be able to function without the camera?

Bgamer90 · Jun 2, 2013

lostones said:
I doubt casuals will want to buy a peripheral to an already expensive system.

This is a good point too.

If the Xbox One has all of the major/popular multiplatform games that the PS4 has on top of Kinect 2 at the same (or cheaper) price than what the PS4 will be then a decent number of people will see the Xbox One as a better value.

lostones · Jun 2, 2013

Bunta said:
Without the eye it would be less expensive than if it were included.

Not necessarily Sony could easily eat the extra cost by selling other peripherals , its a short term cost but a long term investment IMO

Seanspeed · Jun 2, 2013

famousmortimer said:
As a NA customer you're getting a lower priced system. Which is far more important.

I still dont understand how including the Eye in every market but one is enough to save that much money that it covers the costs of the increase in RAM and allows them to sell for $50 cheaper. That seems hard to grasp.

famousmortimer · Jun 2, 2013

lostones said:
The ps4 is going to be expensive as it is ...making the pseye a peripheral will make it an unrealistic buy for non hardcore gamers. It'll basically be 599 gate for them.

I doubt casuals will want to buy a peripheral to an already expensive system.

Casuals aren't buying either system... PERIOD. Casuals that want a console either have a wii u or and 360 with kinect. They aren't the people who buy new systems.

The only system which ever sold well to the casual market in its first 18 months is the Wii... and that was due to how cheap it was. Casuals aren't buying the X1 or PS4 no matter what the camera situation is. There's not even any proof that they are interested in consoles anymore. Kinect software has gone downhill saleswise. The Wii's fall was extremely fast. And the most recent explosions in casual gaming are on tablets and Facebook.

The idea that these people are magically coming back during the launch of a new console is foolhardy. There's absolutely no precedence to the idea that these people are going to drop $400 to $500 for a system just because Kinect 2 is better at tracking than Kinect 1 was.

DBT85 · Jun 2, 2013

King326 said:
Would the DS4 be able to function without the camera?

They have already said yes to this. The DS4 does not need the PS Eye to function.

dagamer34 · Jun 2, 2013

Elios83 said:
Remember that PS4 will be sold with a headset included.
A microphone will be standard.

Microphones are dumb inputs, they have no extra silicon to do voice recognition. If it does, that'll be one rather expensive mic, and if it's going to be expensive, I'd rather it not be even more expensive because it has to be small enough to attach to your head. No developer wants to waste cycles translating sounds into voice commands (they won't be any good at it). They'd rather the platform does that for them.

QaaQer · Jun 2, 2013

ironcreed said:
Yes, I am getting that it is not an accessory anymore. My point is that it was introduced as one, and those who had no use for it at least had the luxury of it not being required. Now, those same people who do not like Kinect are having it forced on them if they want the new Xbox.

Again, while it may be exciting and innovative for some, others simply do not want a mandatory camera that has to be connected in order to use the console... period. Not everyone loves Kinect and the fact that it is now an integrated part of the system does not make it all of the sudden more appealing.

yup. Someone wants a camera included in their purchase, there is a product for them. Those that don't, now have an alternative. Its funny how some are trying to spin this as some colossal fuck up on Sony's part. Not quite as funny as the spinning on used games & mandatory check ins, but still funny.

Ah, marketing...

Uno Venova · Jun 2, 2013

lostones said:
I doubt casuals will want to buy a peripheral to an already expensive system.

Or the expensive system at all.

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