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Campus police shoot and kill LGBT activist armed with knife at university

Two Words

Member
You can only die if you got no training. And yes, that's the job, and that's also why there is such a big problem in the US regarding the police. Oh a student with a knife ! We outnumber him ! Let's shoot him !
You can absolutely die from a knife attack even if you are properly trained. The reduction of how dangerous knives are is absurd.

It literally is not a cop's job to put other's lives over their own.

We have a lot of problems with police. A fucking lot of problems. Many times cops do kill with that bullshit "I was in fear for my life" excuse. I am 100% in the belief that anybcop shooting should be treated like a suspicious act and the cop must justify their actions. That includes his case. And in the case where the person was willing to attack the police officer with a knife, it is absolutely reasonable for a cop to be in fear of their life.
 
Just look at the stats of how many shooting incidents and deaths there are in most western countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

Most are in the single digits as far as deaths go, double digits just for using and wounding.

Compare that to the number of deaths in the US, it is pretty clear there is a huge difference in approach.

I'm not at all arguing the approach is different. Anyone with half a brain knows that. I'm arguing that shooting someone in the leg isn't an effective tactic that anyone does on a regular basis. Furthermore, I'm saying it shouldn't be done at all because it's a very high risk low reward means of disabling someone.
 

Briarios

Member
They were advancing on the police and the police are liable to any harm to any bystanders. They don't have time to run off and go get shields. You don't respond to a gunman with a riot shield. You're asking for a scenario that doesn't exist here.

Most every other 1st world nation can assume a guy with a knife just has a knife.



Your frame of reference appears to be Jason Bourne movies. There's no easy, safe way to take someone down 1v1 when they have a knife. Even with a stab vest, it isn't hard to take a fatal wound.

You're acting like they don't have radios, more than one employee, and can't assess a situation they're presented with ...
 

Beefy

Member
This is 100% wrong by the definition of their job. And really, there is no reason to expect a cop to risk their own life once they are in a truly dangerous situation where their life is actually in serious risk. They are human beings and it is absurd to expect them to risk their lives over a person intending to harm them. Even if their job was literally always put their own life at risk even against people intending to kill, people would not follow this job rule. Why should they? Nobody is going to put their job's rules over their own life. Would you? I don't know what work you are in, but I'm sure if you found yourself in a dangerous situation due to your job's rules, you would say "to hell with the rules" if your life is actually at risk.

So basically, it is false that police's job is to put their own life's as a bottom priority over the public's. Like, look it up, there have been court cases that it isn't the police's job. And even if it were, it is irrational to expect police to actually follow that policy since they are human beings that value their life more than their job.

Other countries seem to handle and do it far better. In the US it seems to be that's not think of a non violent ending and go with the easy shit.
 

blackflag

Member
U.S. Policing is a tragedy. Like they never even tried to tase this person at all? If you tase them, pepper spray them, and that doesn't work then sure you've got to go with guns but the fact they didn't either have or deploy any non lethal means is disgusting.
 
This is 100% wrong by the definition of their job. And really, there is no reason to expect a cop to risk their own life once they are in a truly dangerous situation where their life is actually in serious risk. They are human beings and it is absurd to expect them to risk their lives over a person intending to harm them. Even if their job was literally always put their own life at risk even against people intending to kill, people would not follow this job rule. Why should they? Nobody is going to put their job's rules over their own life. Would you? I don't know what work you are in, but I'm sure if you found yourself in a dangerous situation due to your job's rules, you would say "to hell with the rules" if your life is actually at risk.

So basically, it is false that police's job is to put their own life's as a bottom priority over the public's. Like, look it up, there have been court cases that it isn't the police's job. And even if it were, it is irrational to expect police to actually follow that policy since they are human beings that value their life more than their job.

I have no doubt a cop would rather look out for his own than protect the community. The law just needs to stop protecting cops all because they said, "I feared for my life."
 
I don't think I can really blame the cop for this one. Knives are crazy dangerous and it was probably the best option they had at the moment, assuming they weren't trained for anything better that's non-lethal in situations like this. Of course they should be trained for that, but I can't blame the officer too much. Shame it had to end like this. Poor student needed help.
 

Aurongel

Member
U.S. Policing is a tragedy. Like they never even tried to taste this person at all? If you tase them, pepper spray them, and that doesn't work then sure you've got to go with guns but the fact they didn't either have or deploy any non lethal means is disgusting.
Our police might be corrupt and racist at times but they're not cannibals.

EDIT: Ahh, your edit-fu is mighty.
 

HariKari

Member
You're acting like they don't have radios, more than one employee, and can't assess a situation they're presented with ...

The person is advancing on them. If they retreat, they might just go stab some nearby person or run somewhere else, creating an even more dangerous problem. The police are liable for their non-actions as much as they are their actions. These are time compressed, stressful situations. The response you are looking for just doesn't apply to this scenario. The person that called it in that they had a gun probably sealed their fate.
 

Two Words

Member
Other countries seem to handle and do it far better. In the US it seems to be that's not think of a non violent ending and go with the easy shit.
Other countries have better figures because they don't have as much of the actual bullshit we deal with police. This isn't an example of one of those bullshit police issues.
 

kirblar

Member
Other countries seem to handle and do it far better. In the US it seems to be that's not think of a non violent ending and go with the easy shit.
Other countries do not have the US's gun laws, which are the source of the mismatch in police response escalation. US police standard response policies being more quick to go to shooting is a rational response to US gun laws and culture because anyone can be a lethal threat.
 

Briarios

Member
The person is advancing on them. If they retreat, they might just go stab some nearby person or run somewhere else, creating an even more dangerous problem. The police are liable for their non-actions as much as they are their actions. These are time compressed, stressful situations. The response you are looking for just doesn't apply to this scenario. The person that called it in that they had a gun probably sealed their fate.

If they can't handle the stress, they shouldn't be doing the job. Again, more than one cop, circle the suspect, retreat when they advance until the proper equipment arrives. Every other police force is trained to do it.
 
How many is "many" to you? I'm not arguing as I'd be very interested in the frequency this happens. The ideal situation as I've stated is to not use a gun at all.



Fair enough, I'm mainly talking about actually shooting someone in the legs. I don't think a gun was required at all for this situation.



Only one of those reads like a similar situation, the other 2 were shot at a distance while not actually coming at the officers.

I don't have any statistics, but it's very rare that our police use their guns and most often it seems to be leg shots when it actually happens.

Here's a few news stories (swedish) I could find from a quick google:

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/knivbeväpnad-man-skjuten-av-polis-1.4624822

http://norran.se/nyheter/man-skjuten-i-benet-av-polis-660823


http://omni.se/man-med-kniv-skjuten-i-benet-av-polis/a/vXmmw

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=112&artikel=5791932

http://www.dn.se/arkiv/nyheter/knivman-skjuten-i-benet-av-polis/

Saying that it only happens in the movies is certainly not true.
 
Again, I think it's easy to sit back and say "that's what you signed up for" when talking about risking your life disarming someone with a knife, but not exactly realistic. I'd call engaging someone with a knife in hand to hand combat reckless risk of your own life. Protect and serve doesn't mean protect and serve with no regard to your own safety.

Not saying shooting to death is a good answer (it's not), but I think people severely underestimate the lethality of knives.

Who's saying that? That's where training and equipment come in.

You mean to tell me that there is no way to train a police force to apprehend a student with a knife without killing with a gun?
 

L Thammy

Member
I thought the shooting in the leg thing is a myth. That you can still kill someone from shooting them in the leg, and so police are trained to shoot in the chest because at least you're going to reliably hit them.

Anyway, this is the exact situation that tasers are made for. You have the advantage against the person with the knife but still don't have to kill them.
 

BosSin

Member
Writing he/she (or "he or she") then choosing one gender descriptor for the remainder of the paragraph is grammatically correct when gender pronouns are unknown, I believe. It is unrelated to the derogatory term "he-she."
Ah ok, my bad
 
No disarm tactics? No other option than end the person's life? You really need this explaining?

Disarm tactics is Hollywood bullshit.

Knives are no joke and even an untrained person flailing with a blade can do serious or even terminal damage to somebody.

My father is a Vietnam Vet and when he went through boot camp he was taught that the most efficient way to disarm a knife wielder – assuming you aren’t armed – is to basically let them stab you through the hand or forearm and then try and kill them once you’re in close.

That isn’t to say I’m justifying what happened here because I don’t know the full circumstances but the notion that a cop – or anyone else for that matter – is going to wade into somebody swinging a knife is ridiculous.

I have a close friend who is a 265 pound cage fighter and he once had somebody brandish a knife at a gas station and my buddy backed right off and I can promise you he's better trained than any of these cops.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
the "non-lethal" shit in this thread is bonkers.

someone is coming at you with a knife.. do you idiots even realize how much damage can be done with a knife?

"they should have restrained her"... yes, 3+ cops they could have restrained her.. it just would have sucked for the 1 or more cops who would have been stabbed in the process.. possibly causing their death, incapacitate, disability, etc.

"they should have shot her in the leg". Yes, because all officers are incredibly well trained marksmen who can pull off a pinpoint shot on a small area on a moving target. and in the (likely) case they miss? see above.

pepper spray or taser.. so this is the most reasonable of the suggestions, BUT also (aside from the idiotic restrain suggestion) is also the one that puts the attacker closest to the officers. assuming they had tasers on maybe they could have.. but we don't know if they had them. pepper spray I am mostly going to just say is also a poorly thought out idea. Needing to unholster it, spray it (close enough), and then you STILL have a fluke chance that someone gets stabbed.

police do a lot of bullshit. and unquestionably they set themselves up for these kind of comments (as utterly silly as they are in this case)..but yeah... they were 100% justified in this case.
 

Kill3r7

Member
U.S. Policing is a tragedy. Like they never even tried to tase this person at all? If you tase them, pepper spray them, and that doesn't work then sure you've got to go with guns but the fact they didn't either have or deploy any non lethal means is disgusting.

If some is charging at you, you get to use one or the other. It is not a checklist of solutions especially if they are within pepper spray range, roughly 10 feet. At that point you commit to one of the non lethal solutions and rely on close combat training.
 

Seiryoden

Member
Lots of sane and harmless people do this too.

What is this supposed to mean?

In a thread speculating about the state of mind and intentions of a dead person it would nice if people were respectful enough to refer to them by the pronoun they preferred in life when posting their hot takes.
 

HariKari

Member
I thought the shooting in the leg thing is a myth. That you can still kill someone from shooting them in the leg, and so police are trained to shoot in the chest because at least you're going to reliably hit them.

Anyway, this is the exact situation that tasers are made for. You have the advantage against the person with the knife but still don't have to kill them.

A pelvic shot can drop someone but it can still be very lethal. Cops are responsible for every bullet fired out of their gun so they are trained to shoot center mass so they don't miss. There's really no such thing as a disarming or disabling shot.
 
This.

There's a few things I've learned in this thread. For one, some people think that a knife is somehow not dangerous. Just, wow. Secondly, people don't understand that most know the police in the US need more training and whatnot. We all agree with that and I see no one against that. I a black man from the South can tell you that. With that said, people are so quick to blame police in every single situation without any details. We don't know a thing about what weapons they had besides the gun, if they received extra training to disarm and etc. All we know is what was said, the gun and the weapon were in play and exactly what happened.

Judging the links in the thread and say that's correct ill say that I can't blame them personally for what they did. Sure, I still blame the police in general for the lack of training but if that's what they were told to do with their training then that's just what happened.

Sad situation overall. I wonder what the student was going through. Very sad.

Seems reasonable. US Police training seems to emphasise Officer safety first. If you are in danger, you shoot to kill, no matter what. This cop was following his training, I'm sure he trained for this exact scenario and this is how he was trained to react.

The issue is not even the training itself, it's the underlying emphasis on stacking the odds in favour of officer safety, even if that means killing someone who could be disarmed with very little, but still some, risk.

If you look at situations where mental health or suicide are in play, you have to look at the subject as someone who is both the aggressor and the victim. You have to take down the aggressor but you also have to save the victim and you can't do that if you just shot him in the chest.

Verbal deescalation, containment, improvisation, non-lethal weaponry and shields.
 

Two Words

Member
Killing a person with mental health issues is still bullshit.
That can not be said as an absolute statement. The police do fail many many many times when it comes to mental health issues. When it comes to personal safety, if the mentally ill person is a genuine lethal risk and they are functionally capable of being lethal, the fact they are mentally ill is a moot point.

Honestly, you have to remember that police officers are 100% human beings. Every single human being is going to look out for themselves when it becomes a potential life or death situation. It's the only rational decision. Too many people have been growing up to shows like Law and Order where the cops always manage to talk down the criminal from being lethal and somehow everybody walks away unharmed.
 

Greedings

Member
Disarm tactics is Hollywood bullshit.

This really needs to be restated. Disarming is something that's incredibly dangerous to do, and would just as likely result in the police getting stabbed as not getting stabbed. The police are no in the job to risk their own life.

Also let's not miss the point that these guys are campus police. They're not highly trained agents of the law. They're basically there to bully young people into not pissing on the buildings while drunk.
 
the "non-lethal" shit in this thread is bonkers.

someone is coming at you with a knife.. do you idiots even realize how much damage can be done with a knife?

"they should have restrained her"... yes, 3+ cops they could have restrained her.. it just would have sucked for the 1 or more cops who would have been stabbed in the process.. possibly causing their death, incapacitate, disability, etc.

"they should have shot her in the leg". Yes, because all officers are incredibly well trained marksmen who can pull off a pinpoint shot on a small area on a moving target. and in the (likely) case they miss? see above.

pepper spray or taser.. so this is the most reasonable of the suggestions, BUT also (aside from the idiotic restrain suggestion) is also the one that puts the attacker closest to the officers. assuming they had tasers on maybe they could have.. but we don't know if they had them. pepper spray I am mostly going to just say is also a poorly thought out idea. Needing to unholster it, spray it (close enough), and then you STILL have a fluke chance that someone gets stabbed.

police do a lot of bullshit. and unquestionably they set themselves up for these kind of comments (as utterly silly as they are in this case)..but yeah... they were 100% justified in this case.

You're right that shooting the knife wielder is the best option to protect the police.

However, if you are ok with a society where the police escalate force to the point that they use deadly force in an attempt to minimize any danger to themselves at any cost, don't be surprised when you live in society that has a problem with violence.
 

iPorygon

Member
Georgia Tech (Not Georgia Tech University) student here. The situation all around is pretty bad, not everything has come from the investigation, but Scout was clearly not in the right frame of mind, and in my opinion was probably suicide by cop.

Also before jumping to conclusions, GTPD are not like most american police officers, before this they touted the fact they never had to discharge their weapons during duty, and in general they are pretty laid back. However the fact that they don't carry taser or other non-lethal forces should be changed and will probably come about through the GBI investigation.

It's sad as a fellow LGBT member campus to see this happen, and the main takeaway is that conuseling and support really needs to improve on campus when you have the rigor of being at a top college along with other background issue, something which GT has been trying to improve.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
You can absolutely die from a knife attack even if you are properly trained. The reduction of how dangerous knives are is absurd.

It literally is not a cop's job to put other's lives over their own.

We have a lot of problems with police. A fucking lot of problems. Many times cops do kill with that bullshit "I was in fear for my life" excuse. I am 100% in the belief that anybcop shooting should be treated like a suspicious act and the cop must justify their actions. That includes his case. And in the case where the person was willing to attack the police officer with a knife, it is absolutely reasonable for a cop to be in fear of their life.
The problem here is that in reality the officer's lives never really were in danger, this person never had the upper hand on them and they should all be ashamed.
 

Hissing Sid

Member
Can't Americans aim?

Reminds of the old WWII adage.

When the Germans shoot the British duck.

When the British shoot the Germans duck.

When the Americans shoot everyone ducks!

And when the Italians shoot the ... lol what am I thinking? The Italians ain't got enough hands to shoot with and hold up in surrender at the same time right?

In all seriousness though It's probably a training issue although I wonder if the US military's ethos of saturating a target with overwhelming force has crept into civilian policing. Wouldn't surprise me.

I watched a tv show about American police a couple of nights ago and I honestly thought some of the cops were soldiers judging by their dress and manners. Very militarised.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
You're right that shooting the knife wielder is the best option to protect the police.

However, if you are ok with a society where the police escalate force to the point that they use deadly force in an attempt to minimize any danger to themselves at any cost, don't be surprised when you live in society that has a problem with violence.

come the fuck on... if someone intentionally puts someone else's life in imminent danger, that person has defacto forfeited their right to life. period. you pretend to be painting fine detail while using a shop broom to do it....

with that being said, I DID state that police have brought this level of scrutiny on themselves. However as intelligent individuals we have to be able to say "ok, in this specific time the cops were justified"

if we bitch about this cops doing justified actions EVERY time, we are to blame for the situation almost as much as they are.. well not almost.. but we are contributing to the problem.
 

Briarios

Member
the "non-lethal" shit in this thread is bonkers.

someone is coming at you with a knife.. do you idiots even realize how much damage can be done with a knife?

"they should have restrained her"... yes, 3+ cops they could have restrained her.. it just would have sucked for the 1 or more cops who would have been stabbed in the process.. possibly causing their death, incapacitate, disability, etc.

"they should have shot her in the leg". Yes, because all officers are incredibly well trained marksmen who can pull off a pinpoint shot on a small area on a moving target. and in the (likely) case they miss? see above.

pepper spray or taser.. so this is the most reasonable of the suggestions, BUT also (aside from the idiotic restrain suggestion) is also the one that puts the attacker closest to the officers. assuming they had tasers on maybe they could have.. but we don't know if they had them. pepper spray I am mostly going to just say is also a poorly thought out idea. Needing to unholster it, spray it (close enough), and then you STILL have a fluke chance that someone gets stabbed.

police do a lot of bullshit. and unquestionably they set themselves up for these kind of comments (as utterly silly as they are in this case)..but yeah... they were 100% justified in this case.

The problem is the machine American bullshit that you can't retreat. Staying out of range of the suspect while other officers surround them works. In America, it's - you come towards me, I kill you -- that's the problem. If there was only one officer present, I would understand ... But, that wasn't the case here.
 

Two Words

Member
The problem here is that in reality the officer's lives never really were in danger, this person never had the upper hand on them and they should all be ashamed.
Upper hand? There is no point where the person would have the upper hand and the police could retaliate. I cannot watch th video right now, but the comments state the person went after the cops with the knife. At that point, there isn't much else the cops can wait for.
 

Beefy

Member
That can not be said as an absolute statement. The police do fail many many many times when it comes to mental health issues. When it comes to personal safety, if the mentally ill person is a genuine lethal risk and they are functionally capable of being lethal, the fact they are mentally ill is a moot point.

Honestly, you have to remember that police officers are 100% human beings. Every single human being is going to look out for themselves when it becomes a potential life or death situation. It's the only rational decision. Too many people have been growing up to shows like Law and Order where the cops always manage to talk down the criminal from being lethal and somehow everybody walks away unharmed.

Just watched the video. UK cops would have handled that completely differently. They would have backed off to a safe distant and kept on a eye on them, then called for shields. Why didn't the cops back off?
 
To get some off of the Hollywood trip, this is the reality of knife attacks if someone gets near you:

realityi9phk.gif



This vs. pepper spray, good luck.
 
Upper hand? There is no point where the person would have the upper hand and the police could retaliate. I cannot watch th video right now, but the comments state the person went after the cops with the knife. At that point, there isn't much else the cops can wait for.

Couldn't they let themselves be stabbed once or twice just to make sure the attacker was really serious before responding with deadly force?
 

Kill3r7

Member
Reminds of the old WWII adage.

When the Germans shoot the British duck.

When the British shoot the Germans duck.

When the Americans shoot everyone ducks!

And when the Italians shoot the ... lol what am I thinking? The Italians ain't got enough hands to shoot with and hold up in surrender at the same time right?

In all seriousness though It's probably a training issue although I wonder if the US military's ethos of saturating a target with overwhelming force has crept into civilian policing. Wouldn't surprise me.

I watched a tv show about American police a couple of nights ago and I honestly thought some of the cops were soldiers judging by their dress and manners. Very militarised.

The police are a long way away from military training. They might look the part but the training is not there. A military trained individual can pin down and keep several cops at bay simply by relying on their training.
 
come the fuck on... if someone intentionally puts someone else's life in imminent danger, that person has defacto forfeited their right to life. period. you pretend to be painting fine detail while using a shop broom to do it....

with that being said, I DID state that police have brought this level of scrutiny on themselves. However as intelligent individuals we have to be able to say "ok, in this specific time the cops were justified"

if we bitch about this cops doing this stuff EVERY time, we are to blame for the situation almost as much as they are..

Ok. I'm just saying, consider the consequences of that policy. You will continue to live in a violent society that distrusts police.
 

Briarios

Member
Just watched the video. UK cops would have handled that completely differently. They would have backed off to a safe distant and kept on a eye on them, then called for shields. Why didn't the cops back off?

It's what I just posted - macho American bullshit doesn't allow for a tactical retreat. The police should surround the suspect and move their cordon with knife wielder until either the suspect stops or you have the proper equipment.
 

RangerX

Banned
The police here in Ireland don't even carry guns and they have to deal with the same situations. There are other ways to incapacitate people.
 
to the people who say "what should the police have done"....

i say... not fucking shoot ? they only had a knife.... how do cops works in other countries when faced with this situation? Some policeforce never wear guns... Do they let themselves be killed by the knife? OF COURSE NOT, they have tasers, and many other ways to disarm the person holding the knife

there's no freaking excuse, even if it's suicide by cops here... i mean other cops even in america mange to disarms this kind of treats without guns....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9TFvh6Xps4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfMcjRWESVA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6nSGqQoao
 
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