In that case we better get used to JRPGs being relegated to handhelds or browser games. That kind of sales potential isn't enough justification to put one on a home console, the development costs are too high.
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What would it take for JRPGs to be popular in the west again? Is it even possible?
- Thread starter BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
- Start date
In that case we better get used to JRPGs being relegated to handhelds or browser games. That kind of sales potential isn't enough justification to put one on a home console, the development costs are too high.
Manmademan
Member
this I can agree with. There were a few franchises and games that sold well in the post FF7 Boom, but even a lot of GAF darlings (suikoden 2, smt nocturne, valkyrie profile, vagrant story) were retail disappointments
Clairvoyance
Member
Valkyria
Banned
Wow, hold your horses.
1) Not every English speaking person have issues pronouncing other languages.
2) And more important USA is not the whole WEST, so many people speaks dozens of different languages.
If you have an issue with names in other languages I feel sorry for you.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Ehhh I dunno about that. I realize that there are other variables involved (like bigger, less-selective access to way more titles now than before, etc.) but it still feels like moe has spread out like a pandemic across anime. Way, way more shows feature moe aspects than not. Giant robots, existential stuff, sci-fi, fantasy, action, sports, etc have all been tossed to the corner in favor of "cute" girls doing "cute" things presented in a way that feels like the viewer is seeing it from hiding behind a closet or something. The designs and sensibilities spill into games too.
There are still amazing anime coming out, ones that cover the other genres but they pale in numbers compared to the fetish-fuel stuff. I can't wait till this whole trend dies off and the backlash for it overtakes it.
As consoles have gotten more expensive to develop for and handhelds have gotten more capable and popular, more JRPGs have wound up on handhelds.
Also, grass is green, water is wet, and the sky is blue.
"Atelier" is French, although I suppose you know that since you know what it means.
Anyway, nobody should forget that super-deformed anime style RPGs are hardly popular in Japan these days, either. They sell only to a dedicated hardcore, which is why they pander to their audience so much.
The only RPGs with mainstream appeal in Japan are also the ones that are popular in the West, namely Final Fantasy, Pokemon, and Dragon Quest. If anybody wants a greater variety of non-niche, non-deformed jRPGs, they have to convince the Japanese developers to make more games like that for their home market first.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Pretty much. Outside of Square-Enix (mostly Final Fantasy & Kingdom Hearts) & Nintendo (Pokemon & the Mario RPGs), most JRPGs released here were lucky to break 100k even during the height of PS1-PS2 JRPG mania. If a game manages to sell a few hundred thousand (and wasn't from Nintendo or Square-Enix), it should be considered a huge hit.
This is also the reason why I'm a little surprised we never saw a Lost Odyssey sequel. IIRC, it sold around 350k-400k in NA which should have been considered a huge hit for a brand new JRPG IP in the West, but maybe the budget demanded FF-level sales.
Some of the female designs are good and are in good taste(alittle sex appeal doesn't hurt) but lolita has to go.
You can't sit there and tell me people are happy seeing their favorite genre constrained by the limitations of a mobile platform when others are thriving and making the most of advanced hardware. That's a bitter pill to swallow.
Clairvoyance
Member
9 out 32 animes airing this season have 'moe' in them. 23 don't. 23>9.
I can sit here and tell you that the main audience for that genre is buying a lot of them on portables, so that's what a lot of developers are catering to. It's just the way things are right now.
Part of this may be me lacking the romantic notion of incredibly popular AAA JRPGs on consoles. There are some JRPGs I really like, but that particular idea isn't a holy grail to me.
Romars202129
Member
Remember Trigun and Cowboy Bebop? Where did those days go...
I watched Akira last month for the first time. Modern anime is not like that! It's one of the best things I've ever seen!
... But, i think jrpg's need to focus on realistic artstyles non the less, in the AAA space anyway, so they need to step away from it regardless to be taken more seriously.
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
Welcome to reality. I would love to see ambitious console JRPGs, but that's not going to happen. If a game with HD development costs sell fewer than 500k units, that would likely be a huge failure.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think people were saying they cared what they were called.
Just that stuff with names like Ni No Kuni or Shin Megami Kensei aren't going to sell big in the west as the average consumer sees them on the shelf or sees an ad or review headline on gaming site etc., and just thinks it's a weird/foreign game with a foreign name and doesn't give it a second glance
Just doing a literal translation does't work, but a simple English name like Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior/Quest can go a long way to games not being written off/ignored just based on title alone.
That said, I don't think a normal name is goign to get the average western gamer to play something like SMT anyway, so it's probably mostly moot.
They don't or haven't for years. I just think the west has moved into its shooter phase. Before JRPGs it was fighting games. Fads come and go.
I think was has died isn't the JRPGs but the mid level game.
Black Door
Banned
Just because you stopped watching anime in 1996 doesn't mean that "moe is taking over"
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
Touch a nerve?
To further complicate matters, quite a few games in the SMT series don't even have the "Shin Megami Tensei:" supertitle in Japan.
That seems awfully low. Even mecha series like Gundam 00 and Code Geass had some obvious moe bait in them last time I checked.
Yeah, it seems like the genre has zero chance of being even remotely popular in the West because of this dynamic. Japan loves their handheld gaming, the West loves their PC/console gaming. So even if they adopted many of the changes being proposed here, they'd still have to overcome the development financing hurdles and stiff competition from WRPGs.
It depends on what you consider popular. Is 2 or 3 million enough or does it need to sell 7 million plus for it to be considered popular? With a few tweaks I think 3 million sellers is a possibility, but you would need major tweaks to hit the 7 million mark. It is definitely a niche genre and some of the things people have recommend changing would put the game in a new genre, they wouldnt be jrpg unless you consider all rpgs coming out of Japan jrpg.
Changing almost every element that makes it a jrpg would disqualify it from being called a jrpg. CoD it has raised the bar a lot of what is considered popular and successful. I think quality jrpgs can sell in the 3 million range and I would consider it popular. In order to sell huge numbers over 7 million, you would have to change the games so drastically that they would no longer fit the definition of a jrpg. Jrpgs were never huge sellers outside Final Fantasy and a few random titles, so I dont think they were ever really all that popular in the west to begin with.
Jrpgs are niche genre like moba, fighting games, or cave/treasure shooters, a few titles will break through and sell very well, but I dont very many will be must have games for the majority of gamers. The industry realized this fact and that is why most have smaller budgets, developed for the popular consoles in Japan mainly handhelds, and why many are never localized for the US. If they could make a lot of money on them, we would see a lot more of them. They are tough to profit on them in the West, so we dont see as many as Japan does. The same can be said about popular games in the West selling poorly in Japan.
Changing almost every element that makes it a jrpg would disqualify it from being called a jrpg. CoD it has raised the bar a lot of what is considered popular and successful. I think quality jrpgs can sell in the 3 million range and I would consider it popular. In order to sell huge numbers over 7 million, you would have to change the games so drastically that they would no longer fit the definition of a jrpg. Jrpgs were never huge sellers outside Final Fantasy and a few random titles, so I dont think they were ever really all that popular in the west to begin with.
Jrpgs are niche genre like moba, fighting games, or cave/treasure shooters, a few titles will break through and sell very well, but I dont very many will be must have games for the majority of gamers. The industry realized this fact and that is why most have smaller budgets, developed for the popular consoles in Japan mainly handhelds, and why many are never localized for the US. If they could make a lot of money on them, we would see a lot more of them. They are tough to profit on them in the West, so we dont see as many as Japan does. The same can be said about popular games in the West selling poorly in Japan.
zeopower6
Member
It helps that those are the original names of those game series. I think it's better to keep the original Japanese name so that the brand is universal rather than having it called one thing here and another thing in some other country. I find any attempts to make a 'simple English name' would just result in some generic name like Seiken Densetsu becoming "Secret of Mana"... :/
I think that could be because "Persona" isn't part of SMT? I remember reading that it was more of a Megami Tensei branch than SMT.
Valkyria
Banned
Yeah, sure, not like you sounding selfish at all.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
I think that just comes from the fact there's more anime now then ever. I think there's something like 40 new shows this season. We'd be lucky to get that in a year in the past. Moe is popular, so there's a bunch of shows that have it, but I wouldn't call it the majority outside of specific seasons (like summer of 2010 I think). There's still a bunch of stuff that doesn't fall under that category (unless your definition of "moe" is really wide).
DarkLordMalik
Member
What it comes to character designs and art, you have mimic 'Souls' to appeal to the Western audience. The only Japanese aesthetics appropriate in the West for an 'animated' game is the ones by Studio Ghibli / Pokemon and to a minor extent, SMT ones. Even then the impact is niche, just look at Spirited Away box office and compare it to other animated films.
Either that, or wait for the rise of Asia is next 20-50 years for a more receptive region to these aesthetics.
Either that, or wait for the rise of Asia is next 20-50 years for a more receptive region to these aesthetics.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Exactly! Even things like Utena, Eva, GiTS, etc. There was so much that felt like works that actually offered substance. Biggest hit we've had in a while that's been genuinely amazing is Madoka, and even that has moe designs inside out. (At least it doesn't feel gross though.)
We've been beaten to death for practically ten years with this shit, and in droves. If the latest season is just barely (thankfully) abandoning it, I wouldn't say we're out of the woods yet.
Whatever trends happen in anime though, they're bound to (at least aesthetically) reflect the same thing in games.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
JRPG's were never that popular to being with, and some of the best series like Shin Megami Tensei and Etrian Odyssey are largely ignored by the mainstream audience.
Also, the anime/moe thing is overblown, it's not that bad and only in several JRPG's like Neptunia.
I don't know if more marketing would even help those games tbh.
Also, the anime/moe thing is overblown, it's not that bad and only in several JRPG's like Neptunia.
I don't know if more marketing would even help those games tbh.
Romars202129
Member
One piece and JoJo don't redeem the two to three dozen 'moe' shows that come beside them.
And oversexualization and creepiness pours into even non moe shows, like naruto and Bleach. It's troubling.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
Selfish?
Look, just offering an opinion. I never asked for you to agree with me. I just think that titles help sell games and Japanese titles probably turn a few potential buyers off. I could be wrong and if I am...it won't hurt my feelings.
That1BlackGuy
Member
How can the Final Fantasy brand be going down if each mainline entry is unrelated beyond the franchise's common tropes. Final Fantasy X sold more than Final Fantasy IX shipped, Final Fantasy XII sold less than X and XIII. I don't believe that the reception of the XIII games will factor into XV's sales/mindshare as it has not been proven to do so historically.
Not even taking this into account, like I said earlier in the current market landscape Final Fantasy can still pull numbers well above many others in the genre.
zeopower6
Member
Aokiume's wideface, agh, lol.
There have been MANY more hits than Madoka and plenty of shows that offered substance. However, shows tend to only last one season/cour nowadays and you must be ignoring the shows that try to NOT be moe in some way if you think that it's all we've gotten in the last 10 years.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
You know, I wonder if something like LO "bombing" is where this false notion that standard JRPGs in the past were mega hits. People see that 400k did not meet expectations and then look at the high frequency of games like that released in the PS1/2 era, so they could assume those games did well and thus sold much more than the disappointing 400k of LO, maybe even making it into the millions.
Ian's daughter kinda fills that role. I guess.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Stop making snap judgments about what people play.
Yep. The first one was "Megami Ibunroku Persona," and the rest just use "Persona."
They're probably highlighted as SMT games in the West because of the way Atlus revived localization efforts for the brand with Nocturne.
Clairvoyance
Member
No, Madoka wasn't the last show with substance.
Last season was 7/32 with moe. Next season is at 5/33. Please feel free to make up some more false claims though.
I watched only the first few episodes, but Liu Mei certainly seemed like that.
Granted, I watched it years ago when I was trying to get into Gundam.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Not saying it's all we've gotten. Again, there are still some amazing stuff coming out. It's just that the ratio feels undeniably tilted towards the moe/fetish side of things. You then get the aesthetic in games, since lots of games share the same aesthetic. That stuff should stay in the underbelly where it belongs.
Didn't say it was the last show with substance. I said it was the last show that's enjoyed a level of success of its size. While it's fantastic, you can't deny that it totally panders to the whole moe trope aesthetically. It just manages to not be creepy. (Also, if this is gonna head into "but moe has substance!!!1!!" territory, I'm just not gonna do it. If someone loves all that waifu/moe/lollita shit, that's fine, but you're not gonna convince me that something like Sword Art Online/Clannad/K-On/Uppote etc. is on the same level as the good stuff.)
cosmicblizzard
Banned
We've been "out of the woods" since 2010. That's when the moe shows really exploded and it's been on a decline since then.
Clairvoyance
Member
Bahaha. One Piece anime as a highpoint of modern anime. Especially funny when that's way more guilty of oversexualization than a lot of anime. You should watch some good shows instead.
Jasper Avenue
Member
Make them 20 hours long to get through the story. Make everything else optional.
Romars202129
Member
Ignorant? More like have some semblance of a life, it's hard enough keeping up with those two. Though, I might make time if there's an actually new Gits...!
But, you've missed the point. We shouldn't have to 'ignore' moe, it shouldn't be there in the first place! Neither should it's gender opposite equivalent, btw.
Red Blaster
Member
if there's a way for jrpg devs to easily move on from ps2-spec asset creation then maybe
encephalon
Member
I can see the argument for a game like Ni no Kuni, but for a game where "Japanese" is part of the essence of the game and the title isn't a translatable concept, then it should probably stay in Japanese. If English speakers can handle words like Ninja and Samurai, they can probably deal with Japanese titles in Japanese centric games. Especially the target audience of SMT games.
Yes, that can be, here's how.
Too many JRPG's share the same tropes, similar character, same basic structure and goals. This makes them easy to predict, and reduces the value of their story telling, which is a critical flaw for a genre where story is so vitally important. They also need to brand out into different genres, different settings, and most importantly different artstyles. If they're going to be popular in the rest, they shouldn't be specifically aiming at capturing the Japanese Kotaku or fashista market. These are fine for low budget titles that they never expect to leave Japanese shores, but if they're making a game with the intention of it selling in the east as well as the west, they're going to need to play a balancing games.
Too many JRPG's take odd shortcuts in game design, that hurt the overall experience. A classic case in point would be using a menu instead of an overworld. There was a time when developers could get away with this, but now gamers can spot shoddy lazy game design like this, from a mile away.
Finally, Japanese developers need to stop developing videogames, with the intention that only children will play them. Too be fair, gaming as an adult is not as culturally acceptable as in the united states. Regardless, they cannot keep using storylines intended at capturing twelve year old, and expect it to capture American gamers, whom frequently skew older.
This is related to the diversity issue. It's okay if some RPG's have a childish plot, but games meant for older teens and adults should be written with the idea that they'll appeal to both young audiences, and older slightly more discerning audiences as wel.
- Diversify
- Stop Taking Shortcuts
- Grow Up
Too many JRPG's share the same tropes, similar character, same basic structure and goals. This makes them easy to predict, and reduces the value of their story telling, which is a critical flaw for a genre where story is so vitally important. They also need to brand out into different genres, different settings, and most importantly different artstyles. If they're going to be popular in the rest, they shouldn't be specifically aiming at capturing the Japanese Kotaku or fashista market. These are fine for low budget titles that they never expect to leave Japanese shores, but if they're making a game with the intention of it selling in the east as well as the west, they're going to need to play a balancing games.
Too many JRPG's take odd shortcuts in game design, that hurt the overall experience. A classic case in point would be using a menu instead of an overworld. There was a time when developers could get away with this, but now gamers can spot shoddy lazy game design like this, from a mile away.
Finally, Japanese developers need to stop developing videogames, with the intention that only children will play them. Too be fair, gaming as an adult is not as culturally acceptable as in the united states. Regardless, they cannot keep using storylines intended at capturing twelve year old, and expect it to capture American gamers, whom frequently skew older.
This is related to the diversity issue. It's okay if some RPG's have a childish plot, but games meant for older teens and adults should be written with the idea that they'll appeal to both young audiences, and older slightly more discerning audiences as wel.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
some games are amazing even if they are longer, gamers should be happy that they get more content. Just take out all the filler.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
One good Final Fantasy game.
Romars202129
Member
I don't really care if you don't like One Piece... but.... How is it oversexualized? It's like the most vannila show I've ever watched. Just cause everyone's big breasted? I can deal with that.
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