Support NeoGAF

[Rouke]

Pokemon's most powerful marketing tool was word of mouth. I remember in elementary school, not a day went by when we weren't all setting up trades and battles at lunch and recess lol. In those days, everybody knew what pokemon was and everybody was playing it. In 3rd grade I remember trading somebody some GBA games for a copy of Pokemon Yellow just so I could have Pikachu follow me everywhere.

... nowadays, I can't be bothered to waste my time with Pokemon. I totally fell out of love with it.

Of course word of mouth had a lot to do with it. However, rushing after school to catch the latest episode helped quite a bit.

 

[CuckFupertino]

Fair points. One problem I have with it though is the idea that western games are that much grown up. Most jrpgs of note don't target kids, they target teenagers. The problem with making this argument is that it could easily be argued that wrpgs do the same exact thing. Do you really think Mass Effect - a game whose most famous feature is picking who you want to bone - is aimed at adults? Adults stuck in adolescence, maybe. But adults, really? The idea of Mass Effect and other western games period, as being for adults is beyond comical.

I don't think it can "easily" be argued that most Western RPGs target teenagers, or children specifically. Although Western games certainly tend to be "grittier" and "darker" than Japanese games, you do have a valid point in that they generally appeal to man-child power-fantasies that we perceive as "adult" because there are more blood and guts and boobs and curse words.

Now that I've acknowledged that, I'd like to point out that by laughing at the idea that Mass Effect or "other western games" are designed for adults, you're falling in to the same trap as the person you are quoting. You're generalizing about a very large and diverse group of games, some of which are made for kids, others for adults - but most lie somewhere in between. The truth is, a good RPG (or any game) is designed for a wide audience. They have layers that each generation can appreciate.

Comparing most of the bigger-budgeted JRPGs that come stateside to their WRPG cousins, I can't help but find myself agreeing to some degree with the OP here. The narrative of JRPGs seem to overwhelmingly be concerned with the coming-of-age story of a mid- to late-teen, and all the requisite lessons about friendship that those journeys entail. I'm not saying that I do not enjoy such stories, but for many of us that have grown up playing JRPGs, it's hard not to wish the genre would grow up with us. It's ironic that Ni no Kuni, a game whose narrative and entire existence (on the surface) seem to be geared toward young children, is a breath of fresh air because we get a protagonist still in his pre-teens and seemingly devoid of any angst.

tl;dr, There's a bit of truth in both arguments here: WRPGs (and Western games in general) are certainly not "grown up," but at the same time JRPGs by and large seem to be stuck telling the same story over and over again.

 

[Espada]

I do wonder how Persona 5 will do because I think it will be a PS3 game coming out in late 2014 or 2015.

Yeah, I'm expecting it to be a PS3/360 game (rather than the silly handheld notion some people entertain). Its sales performance is something that'll be interesting to see, since Persona 4 only moved ~100k units in North America. And that was with the PS2's massive install base.

 

[Opiate]

Look at the best selling franchises of the generation on PS3/360:

Call of Duty
Grand Theft Auto
Skyrim
Halo
Assassin's Creed

While casual gamers seem less concerned, hardcore gamers show a strong preference for games that have very high budgets a la Blockbuster movies. If you can't spend like the biggest companies, your odds of having a substantial breakout hit are extremely small.

JRPGs join a list of myriad genres (P&C adventures, SHMUPs, Strategy games and SRPGs, Roguelikes, etc) which don't sell enough to justify the budget needed to compete at the retail PS3/360 level.

 

[Watashiwa]

I do wonder how Persona 5 will do because I think it will be a PS3 game coming out in late 2014 or 2015.

The sooner it releases the better. If they wait to long people are going to jump on the next-gen ship using their current consoles as a stepping stone. 2015 could be bad, but I think they'll be okay if they get it out next year.

Spoiler

Still want to see it on a handheld just because of the screams of rage it would cause.[/spoiler

EDIT: And Opiate's hit it on the head. In order to capture the popular imagination and thus the market, you need money to create a spectacle.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Look at the best selling franchises of the generation on PS3/360:

Call of Duty
Grand Theft Auto
Skyrim
Halo
Assassin's Creed

While casual gamers seem less concerned, hardcore gamers show a strong preference for games that have very high budgets a la Blockbuster movies. If you can't spend like the biggest companies, your odds of having a substantial breakout hit are extremely small.

JRPGs join a list of myriad genres (P&C adventures, SHMUPs, Strategy games and SRPGs, Roguelikes, etc) which don't sell enough to justify the budget needed to compete at the retail PS3/360 level.

I'm suddenly glad JRPG's aren't AAA games.

The sooner it releases the better. If they wait to long people are going to jump on the next-gen ship using their current consoles as a stepping stone. 2015 could be bad, but I think they'll be okay if they get it out next year.

Spoiler

Still want to see it on a handheld just because of the screams of rage it would cause.

That would be beautiful, the delicious tears.

 

[Toxi]

Pokemon Red and Green got big in Japan thanks to the secret 151st Pokemon capturing people's imaginations.

I'm still pissed that I got all 150 Pokemon and got a lousy diploma instead of a Mew.

 

[zeopower6]

I do wonder how Persona 5 will do because I think it will be a PS3 game coming out in late 2014 or 2015.

Hints are pointing at it being announced for not just PS3, but I don't really know what exactly is being said anymore... just that it will probably be shown off before TGS and that it 'won't exactly be PS4-only' or something.

P4 did pretty well despite coming out after the PS3's launch so I don't think P5 will be affected all that much... however if it's on the PS4, that's a different story.

 

[kswiston]

I think some of the perception that JRPGs have lost a lot of popularity comes from the fact that console games in general tend to sell more than they did in the 90s, while JRPGs haven't experienced any growth in the last 15 years. In the PS1/N64 era, Final Fantasy VII was firmly in the top 5 best selling games of the generation behind Super Mario 64, the Gran Turismos and maybe Mario Kart 64. However, Final Fantasy VII sold less than 10M copies. If Final Fantasy XIII came out to similar sales this past generation, how would it have placed? Maybe the Top 30? Perhaps lower? The 360 version of Minecraft alone is well on its way to outselling Final Fantasy VII and that's the best the JRPG genre has ever done outside of Pokemon saleswise.

Best selling games went from selling 1-2 million copies worldwide to 5 million plus. Outside of Pokemon, Final Fantasy, and Dragon Quest, JRPGs struggled to break 1M worldwide even in the PS1 era. In an era where flops regularly break the 1M barrier, a genre that hasn't experienced real growth since the 90s is going to be relegated to niche status (with a few exceptions).

 

[squadr0n]

Jrpgs are not very popular in the west anymore because they don't localize them anymore. Tales of vesperia and Valkryia Chronicles were the last two great jrpgs that made it over here. Since there have only been handheld titles released due to large development costs.

Why is smt IV being released on a handheld, the game could have been amazing on ps3. Gamers want to be taken seriously. I want games that don't treat me like I'm a 12 year old anymore. Deus ex HR is a great square Enid game and it wasn't developed in Japan. I want more games like that.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Jrpgs are not very popular in the west anymore because they don't localize them anymore. Tales of vesperia and Valkryia Chronicles were the last two great jrpgs that made it over here. Since there have only been handheld titles released due to large development costs.

Why is smt IV being released on a handheld, the game could have been amazing on ps3. Gamers want to be taken seriously. I want games that don't treat me like I'm a 12 year old anymore. Deus ex HR is a great square Enid game and it wasn't developed in Japan. I want more games like that.

SMT4 is an amazing game, stop thinking handheld games is any less than console gaming, graphics and power aren't everything

Wanna know why it isn't a ps3 game? budget. The game is huge and making it a HD game would have needed it to sell A LOT more.

 

[zeopower6]

SMT4 is an amazing game, stop thinking handheld games is any less than console gaming, graphics and power aren't everything

I think that's probably why handhelds aren't that big in the West though... people don't really take them seriously.

 

[Espada]

SMT4 is an amazing game, stop thinking handheld games is any less than console gaming.

That's going to be a hard fight, Mauricio. Technically, handheld games are lesser than home console titles. The developers are working with a relatively limited set of tools on a smaller canvas. While in Japan it's probably viewed as the primary form of gaming, that's not the case abroad.

 

[Mxrz]

Saying FF lives off dedicated fans sounds pretty silly. Unless you suddenly count everyone who bought FF13 as a dedicated fan.

Jrpgs aren't going to be 'popular' in the West as long as their stuck with silly looking characters and anime cliches. I'm a fan of most conventional systems, and even I'm turned off by how terrible some of the games have looked.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

That's going to be a hard fight, Mauricio. Technically, handheld games are lesser than home console titles. The developers are working with a relatively limited set of tools on a smaller canvas. While in Japan it's probably viewed as the primary form of gaming, that's not the case abroad.

I think that's the notion because western developers have always been lazier with the handheld counterparts of their games(like Assassins Creed and Uncharted), SMT4 is a great game and it stands in the same ground as any console/PC game quality wise.

I think that's probably why handhelds aren't that big in the West though... people don't really take them seriously.

Because of lazy developers, while Japanese devs are proving THIS YEAR that isn't true, the lineup of the 3DS has been amazing and it isn't stopping at all.

 

[Watashiwa]

Jrpgs are not very popular in the west anymore because they don't localize them anymore. Tales of Vesperia and Valkryia Chronicles were the last two great jrpgs that made it over here. Since there have only been handheld titles released due to large development costs.

Why is SMTIV being released on a handheld, the game could have been amazing on ps3. Gamers want to be taken seriously. I want games that don't treat me like I'm a 12 year old anymore. Deus Ex HR is a great Square Enix game and it wasn't developed in Japan. I want more games like that.

SMTIV is great on handheld, everyone not hung up over the power of the Cell agrees. And it's because Atlus has always released their games where their audience is: the Famicom, the Saturn, the PS1 and 2, and now Nintendo's DS line.

Also, Deus Ex isn't a JRPG and was developed by Eidos, not SE.

By the way, I fixed your typos. Lots of capitalization errors.

I think that's the notion because western developers have always been lazier with the handheld counterparts of their games(like Assassins Creed and Uncharted), SMT4 is a great game and it stands in the same ground as any console/PC game quality wise.

This, exactly. Handhelds were always seen as lesser consoles in the West, not as platforms that can offer up their own unique experiences. Treating their portable consoles as portable consoles with strengths of their own is why Nintendo owns that market. Also, Etrian Odyssey could not exist on a home console, that alone justifies the continued existence of handhelds.

 

[kswiston]

Jrpgs are not very popular in the west anymore because they don't localize them anymore. Tales of vesperia and Valkryia Chronicles were the last two great jrpgs that made it over here. Since there have only been handheld titles released due to large development costs.

Why is smt IV being released on a handheld, the game could have been amazing on ps3. Gamers want to be taken seriously. I want games that don't treat me like I'm a 12 year old anymore. Deus ex HR is a great square Enid game and it wasn't developed in Japan. I want more games like that.

Since you don't care about handheld games, how many amazing console JRPGs do you think you have missed this generation due to publishers not bothering to localize them?

Since the two games you listed, we have received Demons Souls, Dark Souls, Xenoblade, Ni No Kuni, The Last Story, and several other JRPGs that were met with good-great reviews/reception.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

jrpgs are inherently too big. dozens of towns, dungeons, characters, dialogue, its just too costly compared to your linear 8 hour shooters.

Its just not financially feasible

The problem with this, of course, is that you can't make a game with a AAA budget if it isn't selling AAA units. It's a chicken and egg problem; you first need to sell tons of units to get the AAA budget, but you need the AAA budget to sell tons of units.

And this is the really sad truth of the matter. The only HD next-gen full fledged JRPGs are probably going to come out of Square Enix. They're the only ones who's consistently push sales +5million. Most other companies will either scale back the open world aspect of JRPGs (Kingdom Hearts) or take a hit in graphical development to save money. JRPGs are by nature huge 40+ hour epics. It just can't be done with out considerable marketing anymore.

Even Square Enix seems to be abandoning the tradition of stand alone Final Fantasy titles. FFXIII was a trilogy, FFXIV runs off a subscription system, and FFXV has already mentioned sequels. It's just too expensive, and assets have to be reused to make the endeavor profitable ):

I think JRPGs will come back to consoles this generation, but they will sadly never be the same. Prepare for the spin-offs. And honestly, if that means they can continue making HD JRPGs, I will gladly support their efforts.


EDIT: I called Kingdom Hearts a different company. Stupid slip of the tongue. I meant franchise.

 

[† Tenshi †]

That's going to be a hard fight, Mauricio. Technically, handheld games are lesser than home console titles. The developers are working with a relatively limited set of tools on a smaller canvas. While in Japan it's probably viewed as the primary form of gaming, that's not the case abroad.

Sad but true. D: My Vita JP import games far far (really far) out-number my collection of western titles.

 

[Romars202129]

Pretty soon this will hit wrpgs. Maybe not Bethesda, but Bioware's on the cusp of feeling this right now. Next gen is going to be even worse.

I think things are already better than a couple years ago. Some reviewers are even acknowledging shooter fatigue!

 

[Village]

Because of this handheld thing becoming more of a thing, my consumption of jrpgs has gone down.

There are very few rpgs I will actually play on a hand held, other than that I do not like buying them, I rather they be on a console.

 

[Skenzin]

JRPG probably reached its high watermark of popularity, in the west, in the mid-late 90's. its anime inspired style bordered mainstream at about that time but never gained mass appeal outside anime, counter culture (hipsters), hardcore gamers. I doubt it will ever gain that much appeal again, but who knows. It will take some quality work and a bit of luck. As for me the genre lacks emotion and tries to hard to be weird and focuses way too much on androgyne

 

[kswiston]

Well, I'm not talking about that so much as I'm talking about budgets going over demand. Right now, something like Mass Effect sells well, because the budget isn't that much over demand. So it can still be a success. But wrpgs are at the point where they keep making more and more, with bigger budgets, that far exceed their appeal. Which is unfortunate. And it WILL make big damage next gen unless certain companies restrain themselves and budget more effectively which, haha, ain't gonna happen.

Where are all these big budget WRPGs you speak of? Bethesda and Bioware are pretty much the only companies making those. Eidos made one game (Deus Ex: HR). Obsidian has had a few titles. Most of the rest are coming from Eastern European devs who don't need to sell millions to break even.

 

[imtehman]

Look at the best selling franchises of the generation on PS3/360:

Call of Duty
Grand Theft Auto
Skyrim
Halo
Assassin's Creed

While casual gamers seem less concerned, hardcore gamers show a strong preference for games that have very high budgets a la Blockbuster movies. If you can't spend like the biggest companies, your odds of having a substantial breakout hit are extremely small.

JRPGs join a list of myriad genres (P&C adventures, SHMUPs, Strategy games and SRPGs, Roguelikes, etc) which don't sell enough to justify the budget needed to compete at the retail PS3/360 level.

seriously, how big of a budget does call of duty have? its not anything special unless we're tlaking about its marketing budget

 

[Videoneon]

All of the western scum studios and dudebro franchises have to go out of business

More moe art, waifus

Niche JRPGs more popular. Atelier, Yakuza don't need to learn anything from Pokemon or other popular franchises. The hell with what's popular for its own sake. Pokemon is super interesting in its systems but it's too specialized (not to its detriment)--we're the past the era of studios trying to make Pokemon clones.

There's basically not a chance in hell a new JRPG will be popular in the west again unless it has a low barrier or has tons of popular western, otherwise relatable aesthetic choices. They'll have to be more mid-tier, B-tier, or A-tier/whatever. Only the established franchises like Final Fantasy are safe bets, the ones going to retain their name capital. I think it's much more preferable to be in the position that the Tales series is in than something like Final Fantasy. Yakuza though...the more hardcore Nagoshi gets (i.e. Yakuza 5 is a huge ass game) the more our odds hurt a bit.

It will take some quality work and a bit of luck. As for me the genre lacks emotion and tries to hard to be weird and focuses way too much on androgyne

I agree with the first, and I think some JRPGs totally fumble attempts at engaging the player emotionally or have dopey stories. I like the "being weird" and the androgyny part. Those are refreshing, things I don't think are celebrated in big western sellers.

 

[trickyhero]

The people in the west just have diffrent tastes, instead of strategic first person rpgs like SMT, they like games with "story" and production values, with crappy gameplay.

 

[encephalon]

I think that's the notion because western developers have always been lazier with the handheld counterparts of their games(like Assassins Creed and Uncharted), SMT4 is a great game and it stands in the same ground as any console/PC game quality wise.



Because of lazy developers, while Japanese devs are proving THIS YEAR that isn't true, the lineup of the 3DS has been amazing and it isn't stopping at all.

The biggest barrier to SMT4 to me is re-used, 2D assets from previous games. What devs are "lazy?" What does it take for a dev to be "lazy?"

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

The people in the west just have diffrent tastes, instead of strategic first person rpgs like SMT, they like games with "story" and production values, with crappy gameplay.

That's a huge dilemma for me, I personally love SMT/EO because of the whole strategy aspect of them... make one mistake and you're dead, the tension from being able to lose hours of progress is amazing. Planning every single step and hoping you can overcome the huge obstacles which gives you a huge sense of accomplishment.

All of that is suicide in today's mainstream market.

The biggest barrier to SMT4 to me is re-used, 2D assets from previous games. What devs are "lazy?" What does it take for a dev to be "lazy?"

the handheld games of AAA series are usually are toned down in a lot of ways, that's what I call lazy.

SMT4 has 500 demons while SMT3 only had 100, the game is FULL of content which totally makes the reuse of old assets okay for me, I get why others would care and respect it.

 

[Mupod]

Persona 5 will fix everything and then we'll get our AAA next-gen Skies of Arcadia 2, which will sell all the millions.

Seriously I'm okay with handhelds and I'm fine with Atlus' way of doing things, but I do miss when it was common for JRPGs to be the big showcase titles. I guess FF could still probably pull that off but my well of faith in squeenix ran dry a long time ago.

I do think there's quite a few people out there who just need to have their eyes opened to the SMT series. Persona 3 and 4 were working out as a gateway drug for a while there but kinda hard to keep your momentum rolling when you skip a generation.

 

[Romars202129]

Well, I'm not talking about that so much as I'm talking about budgets going over demand. Right now, something like Mass Effect sells well, because the budget isn't that much over demand. So it can still be a success. But wrpgs are at the point where they keep making more and more, with bigger budgets, that far exceed their appeal. Which is unfortunate. And it WILL make big damage next gen unless certain companies restrain themselves and budget more effectively which, haha, ain't gonna happen.

This high budget thing can't sustain itself. It cuts down too much on creativity, it will eventually bore the mainstream gamer just as much as it bores us, it's only a matter of time.
And when that happens, the industry will change.
At least, that's what I hope will happen. Otherwise, oooh baby, I don't know.

 

[zeopower6]

Because of lazy developers, while Japanese devs are proving THIS YEAR that isn't true, the lineup of the 3DS has been amazing and it isn't stopping at all.

That doesn't change the fact that most people in the West probably don't give a damn about the lineup because it's on the 3DS...

 

[encephalon]

the handheld games of AAA series are usually are toned down in a lot of ways, that's what I call lazy.

SMT4 has 500 demons while SMT3 only had 100, the game is FULL of content which totally makes the reuse of old assets okay for me, I get why others would care and respect it.

SMT4 may have 500 demons, but how much of that constitutes new content that was created for SMT4? From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the vast majority of the art is repurposed concept art that was used in SMT: Devil Summoner and Soul Hackers for the Saturn. The game definitely seems to have a lot of work put into the 3D world you traverse, however. But ATLUS is the one developer that generally seems to design their games around strict limitations on assets, whether it's the original Persona, Soul Hackers, Persona 3, or SMT4. These games may have a lot of content, but I can't help but take in consideration the existence or lack of variety and unique assets when considering how much "content" a game has. A game could be the largest game ever created, if it all consisted of a single dungeon with the same wall and floor graphics, would that be praise worthy? Edit: Then again, Demons are more than just assets. They have their own behavior, skills, etc. So then again, maybe I'm glazing over the fact that that's 500 demons with unique programming.

I generally agree with the idea that handheld games should be accepted, although I don't know if it's a feasible for JRPGs to catch on in the west on handhelds. Handhelds work in Japan because the country has a great public transportation system that's a part of daily life. In United States we don't really have that and there's a social stigma as well.

 

[Dinda]

They should just make a good one! I still think that would be enough.

The old Final Fantasy titles sold fantastic, and then after FFX Squeenix decided that they have to change things. But why where they so sure a title like FFX wouldn't sell anymore?

Probably because someone told them they had to go cater to the western action gamers, then they started to make them real time (FFXII) or super linear (FFXIII) and now a straight up action title (FFXV)

They didn't try to make a game like they used to becasue they think it wouldn't sell well, even thought every game they made that way sold well. I really can't understand them.


When i say this people like to point out that Lost Oddysse and for example Last Remnant didn't sell well, but the fact is they where released on the 360.
I know a lot of people that bought a PS3 after having a PS2 waiting to get their hands on good JRPGs. And of course would they think they would be there after the PS1/2 were JRPG heaven, but they where nowhere to be seen.

Instead the few JRPG's that were released where on the 360 (probably because of MS money) and of course the, at that time, mainly shooter and west oriented 360 owners didn't buy these games in great numbers.
I and a few others bought a 360 because of those games, but not everyone was able to buy 2 consoles, and as i said, i know a lot of people where betting on the PS3 for that. It was the Japanese console after all.

And then the way of thinking that those games where a thing of the past and don't work on HD Consoles began to settle in with the Japanese developers. And they didn't even try it anymore.

I had hope that something like Persona would at least partially fill the gap that FF left, but this Generation is nearing it's end and we didn't even have an announcement of a new Title. Not one Atlus JRPG the entire Generation.
No, Persona wouldn't do FF Numbers, but i think it would sell quitw a bit more than the PS2 Personas which would at least be a good sign. But now it will probably be released on current gen a long time after the new consoles where released.

And then they try to think why it didn't sell, and when that happens, you can bet they think of every reasons other than those that truly where the case, like it always is.

 

[WolvenOne]

Just a few last thoughts, and clarifying points.

I do tend to buy into the idea that the popularity of the JRPG genre in the west, largely revolved around Final Fantasy, so restoring Final Fantasy to a greater degree of popularity would go a long way towards fixing the perception that the genre in floundering. Final Fantasy itself, however, has suffered from a few problems in recent years. The two biggest ones, being readily obvious in Final Fantasy 13.

The two problems were, in short, that the game both suffered a severe identity crisis, and, for the most part was actually a step backwards in terms of storytelling.

The identity crisis is obvious. This was an RPG, that didn't want to be an RPG, but didn't know what else it could be either. It jettisoned major aspects of traditional JRPG gameplay, and replaced them with either broken systems or nothing at all. There was no real item management system, equipment could largely be ignored through much of the game, there were no real towns or NPC's, and the overworld were even more linear than the already horribly linear FF10's. In short, it felt less like a role playing game, and more like an event playing game, and I'd attribute this to the designers not actually having a clear vision for which direction it actually wanted to go.

Then, there's the story. To be blunt, I know people who beat the game, and still have no idea what the game was supposed to be about. The plot was full of self referential terms that made zero sense to the audience, and therefore most individuals never had anything beyond a vague notion what the core plot was supposed to be about. So instead the story would've had to have relied on the characters, but ended up failing here too. As another commentator pointed out, the game really did feel like bad anime fanfic. Most of the characters were direct copies of common tropes in anime, and some were even direct retreads of characters the FF13 development team created during FF10. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice how many similarities between there were between Vanille and Rikku.

In essence, the story was far below the expectations of fans and consumers, and this hurt the franchise considerably. Perhaps more than any other JRPG franchise, Final Fantasy had to grow and become more mature with the audience, and instead we got a title that was more juvinile, and more clumsy than any entry in the franchise before it.

All this said I'm actually somewhat optimistic about Final Fantasy in the long term. I think Square has at least learned some lessons off 13, and how that the trilogy is about to be over, we can finally wave goodbye too that flawed storyline for good.

 

[Toxi]

The people in the west just have diffrent tastes, instead of strategic first person rpgs like SMT, they like games with "story" and production values, with crappy gameplay.

Dark Souls and Pokemon are popular in the West. Neither of those games are story-focused.

That doesn't change the fact that most people in the West probably don't give a damn about the lineup because it's on the 3DS...

They might start giving a damn when Pokemon comes out. It's easily a system seller.

 

[zeopower6]

They might start giving a damn when Pokemon comes out. It's easily a system seller.

Pokemon doesn't really count for anything. It'd sell regardless as long as it's a main title on a Nintendo handheld. It's not really counted in this "JRPGs aren't popular in the West!" thing at all. Pokemon will sell LOADS and there's no doubt about that. Now those other JRPGs people are talking about on handhelds... they'd be lucky to even total Pokemon's first day with their lifetime sales combined.

 

[trickyhero]

Another point, the Japanese don't seem to have big budgets to make "AAA" games, something that a recent Nintendo thread made very clear to me. JRPGs are gonna stay niche until people can get over the graphics, and enjoy them for what they are. The only games that I see making JRPGs (other than pokemon) mainstream is the next FF and Kingdom Hearts games having amazing production value and localization, which might happen.

 

[Skilletor]

What the hell is moe?

 

[† Tenshi †]

Just a few last thoughts, and clarifying points.

I do tend to buy into the idea that the popularity of the JRPG genre in the west, largely revolved around Final Fantasy, so restoring Final Fantasy to a greater degree of popularity would go a long way towards fixing the perception that the genre in floundering. Final Fantasy itself, however, has suffered from a few problems in recent years. The two biggest ones, being readily obvious in Final Fantasy 13.

The two problems were, in short, that the game both suffered a severe identity crisis, and, for the most part was actually a step backwards in terms of storytelling.

The identity crisis is obvious. This was an RPG, that didn't want to be an RPG, but didn't know what else it could be either. It jettisoned major aspects of traditional JRPG gameplay, and replaced them with either broken systems or nothing at all. There was no real item management system, equipment could largely be ignored through much of the game, there were no real towns or NPC's, and the overworld were even more linear than the already horribly linear FF10's. In short, it felt less like a role playing game, and more like an event playing game, and I'd attribute this to the designers not actually having a clear vision for which direction it actually wanted to go.

Then, there's the story. To be blunt, I know people who beat the game, and still have no idea what the game was supposed to be about. The plot was full of self referential terms that made zero sense to the audience, and therefore most individuals never had anything beyond a vague notion what the core plot was supposed to be about. So instead the story would've had to have relied on the characters, but ended up failing here too. As another commentator pointed out, the game really did feel like bad anime fanfic. Most of the characters were direct copies of common tropes in anime, and some were even direct retreads of characters the FF13 development team created during FF10. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice how many similarities between there were between Vanille and Rikku.

In essence, the story was far below the expectations of fans and consumers, and this hurt the franchise considerably. Perhaps more than any other JRPG franchise, Final Fantasy had to grow and become more mature with the audience, and instead we got a title that was more juvinile, and more clumsy than any entry in the franchise before it.

All this said I'm actually somewhat optimistic about Final Fantasy in the long term. I think Square has at least learned some lessons off 13, and how that the trilogy is about to be over, we can finally wave goodbye too that flawed storyline for good.

Weird. I loved FFXIII, story and characters. It's extremely lore heavy so I guess people who can't be bothered to read the in-game encyclopedia would be left out there. I don't understand, what didn't make sense?

The story in FF is always the same. Save the world, fight a power that considers themselves above you. ... Only in FFXIII, you literally are fighting the "gods." The story makes perfect sense in the world and lore it's presented in. Somebody please explain to me what exactly is so confusing. Was it all the new terms? The ones that you could read about in your encyclopedia at any time? Or has COD dumbed us all down to the point where we expect spoon-fed stories?

 

[Syntax]

I think that's probably why handhelds aren't that big in the West though... people don't really take them seriously.

I kinda fall into that category.

My preferred platforms are PC and console (own all the current gen), but handheld isn't that appealing to me. When I leave the house it's usually with a purpose in mind and I don't usually have time to play video games; the thought that I'd be able to enjoy an RPG of all things while out and about in the world is silly to me. So I haven't purchased a handheld since the DS first came out.

While graphics and power aren't everything, they're definitely important to me. It's why I love my PC. So when I'm home the options available to me on handhelds obviously can't compete in that department.

For me, at least, it would be nice if more JRPGs came to PC/consoles. That'd increase their appeal.

 

[† Tenshi †]

What the hell is moe?

Boom. Thank me later.

 

[Pikma]

I do. Just not as much as I used to because the things I mentioned bother me too much. Star ocean, FFXIII, Neptunia, Infinite Undiscovery. So many shitty jrpgs came out this gen.

It's not the genre's fault that you've been playing the wrong games. That's like saying Shooters suck because I tried Homefront, Medal of Honor, Brink and Haze and they were all shitty.

 

[Videoneon]

Analytical Treatise for Increasing JRPG Popularity:

---Several JRPG's include a jpop song. For the localized version of a JRPG, get Bruno Mars, Rhianna, Kanye West, Mumford and Sons or whoever the fuck to do a song. Same thing with that awful remix of "In the Air Tonight" for Dead Space 3 used to advertise it

---"Cross promotion". The main protag lost his airship? That's okay, because he can borrow his childhood friend's Lamborghini. Instead of potions or elixirs, change the items to Bud Light or something.

---Have Chuck Norris do voice acting because people love Chuck Norris!!!!

***yes, I know Lamborghini is Italian and not America, I just know it's a luxury car maker or something, no I don't know if they make well-performing cars

Persona 5 will fix everything and then we'll get our AAA next-gen Skies of Arcadia 2, which will sell all the millions.

Seriously I'm okay with handhelds and I'm fine with Atlus' way of doing things, but I do miss when it was common for JRPGs to be the big showcase titles. I guess FF could still probably pull that off but my well of faith in squeenix ran dry a long time ago.

I do think there's quite a few people out there who just need to have their eyes opened to the SMT series. Persona 3 and 4 were working out as a gateway drug for a while there but kinda hard to keep your momentum rolling when you skip a generation.

Sounds like a plan. Get on that shit Atlus. And Sega, but I have much less faith in Sega seeing as Skies of Arcadia is older, Sega is reticent on JP output right now. At least Atlus is working on Persona 5.

I also think that there's an untapped audience that ignores JRPGs because of the timing. I freely admit I grew up in a golden era for JRPG's, being a twentysomething. I had a JRPG childhood and I barely even seized on it. What with the change in trends as far as audience and development and AAA Western stuff, I feel like a potential audience, although probably not extremely huge, is lost.

 

[Skilletor]

Boom. Thank me later.

I play a lot of JRPGs, none of which feature much of this.

 

[Tevious]

The avatar cutscenes allow for more fleshing out of the characters and world imo. Do you want more in-engine cutscenes or something? I loooove the skits in Tales of games. They're even fully voiced now!

Just more cinematic cut-scenes with a bit more interaction. Not just standing around with still avatars to express emotions. Even voiced, its only on par with MGS1's codec dialog and that even has the excuse that its basically a phone call. You can call it an artistic choice, but I think its just lazy.

Why doesn't anyone try to replicate what Square-Enix did during the PS1 era? I understand these developers don't have huge budgets, but doing a game with 2D backdrops (in HD) and 3D models should be doable. They can have cinematic cut-scenes and with a decent battle/leveling system and a well written story, I think it'd do pretty well. Someone should do a Kickstarter....

 

[Durask]

Most JRPGs are relatively niche in Japan as well.

If you look at PSP or DS games which is where most JRPGs are these days, 200K is very good sales.

Also, can someone name me a bestseller JRPG in Japan that was not brought over here? I can't think of anything...

 

[zeopower6]

I play a lot of JRPGs, none of which feature much of this.

You must not be playing the moe ones then. (which is what people were complaining about earlier since the moe ones are apparently why they're not popular in the West)

Most JRPGs are relatively niche in Japan as well.

If you look at PSP or DS games which is where most JRPGs are these days, 200K is very good sales.

Also, can someone name me a bestseller JRPG in Japan that was not brought over here? I can't think of anything...

Well, I think most people would name Type-0 or Mother 3, lol. Both victims of being released late in a console's life cycle in the West....

 

[encephalon]

Wouldn't a new Skies of Arcadia be a fairly expensive JRPG to produce?

 

[† Tenshi †]

I play a lot of JRPGs, none of which feature much of this.

Bingo. Proof that people who want all these changes to JRPG's and claim that they're too "moe" actually have no fucking clue.

People just like to shit on the things they don't understand. It's pathetic and annoying.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Also, can someone name me a bestseller JRPG in Japan that was not brought over here? I can't think of anything...

Final Fantasy Type 0