zeopower6
Member
Honestly, even 500-700k is really rather good in Japan too. Doesn't Tales on average sell quite a bit more than SMT/Persona?
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What would it take for JRPGs to be popular in the west again? Is it even possible?
- Thread starter BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
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Honestly, even 500-700k is really rather good in Japan too. Doesn't Tales on average sell quite a bit more than SMT/Persona?
PlanetSmasher
Banned
Adult protagonists would be a nice start. As long as JRPGs are about teenagers or little kids saving the world, they're going to be a really tough sell in the west.
Megidolaon
Member
I think there's room for kid, teen, and adult casts.
Persona and Kingdom Hearts have teen casts and pull it off. Not too many RPGs with a kid cast. Maybe a few kid party members. Pokémon and Ni no Kuni come to mind.
I wouldn't mind more adult casts like FFXII (most were adults), if it's done well.
zeopower6
Member
Brave Story on the PSP had a kid cast and was really rather good. (but that was mostly due to following the novel somehwat) I wanted more games like that this generation.
That game needed more attention.
Nightengale
Member
The problem is not that JRPG lacks those kind of games, it's that those particular JRPGs have not succeeded to be 'relevant' in the current console space.
Take Suikoden for example. Very grounded low-fantasy, with mature themes like politics, race, revolution, rooted in a more grounded national-level conflicts than world-destroying cliches. Rich cast of core characters that have been primarily adults, and an interesting cast of side-characters, totalling up to 108. Army building, castle building, etc. Battles that combine personal battles & strategic war-scale battles.
But because it doesn't sell well, so it's failed to be relevant.
Which is a pity, given that many games have went on to use those elements of Suikoden well, be it western or japanese games.
PlanetSmasher
Banned
Suikoden games have always had a history of being released immediately around other major JRPGs, like Final Fantasy VIII and Suikoden II being released within days of each other. Or Suikoden V coming out around the same time as Kingdom Hearts 2. They're doomed from the start.
Tye The Czar
Member
More gamers should give Trails in the Sky a spin. A deep battle system, endearing characters, outstanding music, excellent writing. It does everything few JRPGs do nowadays.
OK, this is totally off topic.
He is absolutely correct in his analogy, however the belief that dark coffee is good is something held by the general public and NOT by coffee geeks. Same as the general public thinks that Starbucks has good coffe, among coffee geeks mentioning Starbucks is like mentioning Bose to audiophiles.
My own opinion is that it is VERY hard to make dark roast that actually has any flavor aside from charcoal.
Should have been the first damn post. Seeing a game you would be interested in buying only for it to be "Japan only" gets you to the point of why even care
Nightengale
Member
Bad business decisions have killed great products before.
Falcom is great that way. It's kind of a pity that they would probably never ever attempt to make a high-production value game, be it Ys or Legend of Heroes.
I would love to see a console-Zelda quality Ys title out of Falcom.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Cliches I like are way more nuanced and well written than cliches I hate.
Oh man,
Mikado totally is just a medieval-themed Vault.
zeopower6
Member
Outside of a lot of handheld titles... what games have been Japan only on the consoles? Just curious... :x
story...
it's all about a good story.
also the rpg that really made a big impression in me was final fantasy vii and the reason was because i have never seen a game with so many different "engines". (i played chrono trigger after ff7). but for me it always comes down to a good story.
it's all about a good story.
also the rpg that really made a big impression in me was final fantasy vii and the reason was because i have never seen a game with so many different "engines". (i played chrono trigger after ff7). but for me it always comes down to a good story.
It could be included in a good vs bad armor design in jrpgs with demon's/dark souls.
JustRiffled
Banned
To be fair Shin Megami Tensei is a pretty shitty name.
Should have had been translated. Leaving Japanese name as they are is stupid
PokemasterTT
Neo Member
Release them on PC.
dark_prinny
Banned
Just make them as good as Persona 4 and problem solved.
Paracelsus
Member
This is what the thread turned into.
The recipe for a potentially successful title was already there with TLR, they blew it with the wrong platform, total lack of marketing and on top of that you could say anything about the combat system except that it's accessible.
Black Door
Banned
I wonder what this thread would be like if the WRPG/ Dark Fantasy fad was over.
"Make them like Football Manager!"
JustRiffled
Banned
According to sales, Final Fantasy is more popular than Persona in the west
Senor Kami
Banned
It depends on how you define popular. They are foreign products made for people of a very different and homogeneous cultural background. They will always be kinda niche in the west because of that unless they go the Pokemon route and play things incredibly safe and bland and target children who don't know any better and can only compare them to Facebook games and like god awful Ben 10 games.
I don't think any regular JRPG will put up Skyrim numbers and still be considered a JRPG. A lot of the suggestions in this thread boil down to, abandon everything that makes a JRPG and JRPG and they'll be more popular. They'll never be more popular unless they take an approach makes them feel like a WRPG that just happened to be made in Japan. Luckily though, being popular isn't equal to being successful. I think JRPGs can be and are successful in the West and that's all that really matters to me. As long as they can put up numbers that justify their creation and localization, I'm good.
I don't think any regular JRPG will put up Skyrim numbers and still be considered a JRPG. A lot of the suggestions in this thread boil down to, abandon everything that makes a JRPG and JRPG and they'll be more popular. They'll never be more popular unless they take an approach makes them feel like a WRPG that just happened to be made in Japan. Luckily though, being popular isn't equal to being successful. I think JRPGs can be and are successful in the West and that's all that really matters to me. As long as they can put up numbers that justify their creation and localization, I'm good.
(makes a face) Go play Zwei II. -_-
You even get some of JDK's best music ever.
Did none of you play Dragon's Dogma or something? And what was wrong with God Eater Burst or the Tactics Ogre remake? I have yet to see something which validly defines a JRPG other than it being a "RPG made in Japan".
It is true though that over the years chara design changed, trending towards a more clean, minimal, "perfect-ified" or "doll-ified", style. I don't play JRPG, but in anime this "evolution" is evident to me, and from the little I see about newly JPRG, it carries over (it's natural afterall). I don't necessarily dislike the doll-like characters, though sometimes it is overdone (especially certain male designs) and I'd still like to see more not-embellished stuff (Fujiko Mine.. you too can see how different it is from the current generic anime aesthetic); but indeed they can frankly be a turn off.
Anime also is narratively becoming more self-referential, “too near to the fanbase” (I don't remember who said this), tropes more and more becoming staples or even cornerstones onto which build series*. While shortening the distance with the fanbase the distance with the others is widened. And I guess this too might carry over to JRPG, which would be another turn off element.
So maybe the whole extent of the "problem" is simply that JRPG and anime are too near: until they're bounded to animes (especially aesthetics) like they are, people will see them as “anime RPGs”. For people who already like anime stuff (and the aesthetics, and the tropes) this is fine or even a good thing, but for people who don't o just don't care, as soon as they get a whiff of that stuff presence in the game, they have little-to-no incentive in giving the game a chance.
(Maybe in the past having anime aesthetics was more accepted because the graphics detail was low and a gap remained: the games looked like having “japanese style drawn graphics", but they didn't convey the “this is an anime game” message that the detailed graphics now convey.. and if you add "doll designs" to that...).
I'm just pondering, please don't kill me.
* some people don't agree with this.
Enosh
Member
doesn't DA2 have different armor design for different classes and this is the mage one?
"True Reincarnation of the Goddess"? Even in Japan the Megami Tensei title was only relevant in one game, which is probably why they don't even use it most of the time.
That's why I've been saying for a while Konami should sort of "reboot" Suikoden with a slightly more realistic visual style, especially seeing how popular Game of Thrones is right now.
RE Transitions
I don't always want to see them go, but I'd like to see them done differently. Chrono Trigger had a good transition, you run into an enemy and more pop out and fight you right there, but if you avoided it you were in the clear. On the opposite side of that, there were totally unavoidable battles. Compare to Star Ocean 4, you can avoid every non-boss enemy aside from, just from memory, two, and get to where you're going as you wish.(The two in Question is an ambush in the mothership and the first fight in the Miga Insect Warren).
Infinite Undiscovery and FF12 are the total opposite of transitions, all the fighting taking place on the same map you're on. I'd like to see this more, to be honest.
Tales, Final Fantasy 13, 13-2, LIghtning Returns and Star Ocean 3/4 have you run into an enemy to start the fight. Sometimes you can run into their back or attack them to get an advantage, but there's still a transition.
Then there's random battles which suck. A totally empty map and if you take one step too many you swoosh onto a different screen and fight some things. I can't say I like this at all. Makes places feel so empty. Dragon Quest 8 is my favorite game that does this, however. Even though there were random battles I still ended up enjoying that game immensely.
Basically what I'm saying is give me more Infinite Undiscovery and FF12
I don't always want to see them go, but I'd like to see them done differently. Chrono Trigger had a good transition, you run into an enemy and more pop out and fight you right there, but if you avoided it you were in the clear. On the opposite side of that, there were totally unavoidable battles. Compare to Star Ocean 4, you can avoid every non-boss enemy aside from, just from memory, two, and get to where you're going as you wish.(The two in Question is an ambush in the mothership and the first fight in the Miga Insect Warren).
Infinite Undiscovery and FF12 are the total opposite of transitions, all the fighting taking place on the same map you're on. I'd like to see this more, to be honest.
Tales, Final Fantasy 13, 13-2, LIghtning Returns and Star Ocean 3/4 have you run into an enemy to start the fight. Sometimes you can run into their back or attack them to get an advantage, but there's still a transition.
Then there's random battles which suck. A totally empty map and if you take one step too many you swoosh onto a different screen and fight some things. I can't say I like this at all. Makes places feel so empty. Dragon Quest 8 is my favorite game that does this, however. Even though there were random battles I still ended up enjoying that game immensely.
Basically what I'm saying is give me more Infinite Undiscovery and FF12
PlanetSmasher
Banned
Any battle system where enemies can damage me with their attacks when I'm running away and they're nowhere physically near me (a la MMORPGs, FFXII and Xenoblade) need to go die in a fire.
If I'm trying to run away from a battle and my characters are faster than the things I'm running from, they should not be able to damage me with their normal attacks. Especially when said battle system requires my characters to be close to the enemies in order to hit them.
If enemies are going to be roaming around on the field, make it like Kingdom Hearts, not FFXII.
If I'm trying to run away from a battle and my characters are faster than the things I'm running from, they should not be able to damage me with their normal attacks. Especially when said battle system requires my characters to be close to the enemies in order to hit them.
If enemies are going to be roaming around on the field, make it like Kingdom Hearts, not FFXII.
That's because those aren't action games, they're still purely RPGs. In RPGs physical placement in the world is rarely even a factor in the effectiveness of an action. The fact that you can walk around in battle in games like FF12 is really of little consequence at all.
PlanetSmasher
Banned
And that's what's backwards and stupid about FFXII and Xenoblade's battle systems - YOU have to be right next to an enemy and facing them to hit them, but they can hit you no matter where you are.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Do you know how rare ranbats are now? There's that game design komissar thing again...
You were in-range when the ranged hit went off, and, well, it was ranged.
I've always been a fan of the Grandia/Trails style of combat, along with Valkyrie Profile 2 and Tales. Note: The Tales with actual good battle systems like Graces F and Destiny PS2 Remake, not the boring broken mashy Tales like Symphonia and Abyss.
By the way, regarding market appeal, Tales games have always been incredibly anime, it's not like story-wise Symphonia was different at all from Graces, really. They're products of the time they were made in but they still hinge on taking cliches from that space. If the Symphonia HD collection actually made the combat system not-broken and fun instead of just mindless mashing and chugging potions (I'm so glad Graces F got rid of the dumb TP mechanic), then I would actually get it.
By the way, regarding market appeal, Tales games have always been incredibly anime, it's not like story-wise Symphonia was different at all from Graces, really. They're products of the time they were made in but they still hinge on taking cliches from that space. If the Symphonia HD collection actually made the combat system not-broken and fun instead of just mindless mashing and chugging potions (I'm so glad Graces F got rid of the dumb TP mechanic), then I would actually get it.
Fimbulvetr
Member
There were a lot of different costume designs when you changed your equipment, but yeah there was one "signature" costume for each class. I'm not too fond of any of them.
Not that different from all the other uninformed diatribe that goes into these threads.
Gillian Seed
Banned
Make more Masterpieces like Ni No Kuni.
radios shipping overview
Member
Well, first of all, they need to start making them again, which would require a reduction in development costs and increased Japanese interest in console gaming (neither are too likely). Next, they need to achieve some cultural resonance in the way that FF7 did, and they can achieve that by telling great stories and creating worlds people want to be in, and doing it in a relatively fresh and vibrant way.
I want to say that making them edgy and "mature" isn't the right path to making them palatable, but by and large, these are products for teenagers and young adults with a lot of time to spend on them. So, JRPGs will have to follow fashion to some extent to catch eyeballs.
I think discussion of mechanics and gameplay styles is beside the point. FF7 didn't sell on the basis of those. Those are the least important things devs should be looking at in Western games. You give people a cohesive and exciting world they can sympathize with and escape to and they'll love you for it.
I want to say that making them edgy and "mature" isn't the right path to making them palatable, but by and large, these are products for teenagers and young adults with a lot of time to spend on them. So, JRPGs will have to follow fashion to some extent to catch eyeballs.
I think discussion of mechanics and gameplay styles is beside the point. FF7 didn't sell on the basis of those. Those are the least important things devs should be looking at in Western games. You give people a cohesive and exciting world they can sympathize with and escape to and they'll love you for it.
It's called Yakuza
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