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[SatelliteOfLove]

Hold up.

Assets have everything to do with "craft," and I believe "craft" is relevant to "quality." SMT4 doesn't just reuse assets. It reuses assets that appear to be drawings directly lifted from concept art and then converted into floating still forms in games in the mid 90s, then applies very poor animations to them. My concern with SMT4 isn't that even as much that it re-uses the graphics, it's that it doesn't do it very well. In other words, it looks "bad" or "low quality." It doesn't really appear to be congruent with the rest of the game, either. That's my personal impression.

Don't conflate this with a "hunger" for more more, and more. The kind of attitude that can't approach NieR without being taken aback by "PS2 level" graphics. I definitely agree that more acceptance of a smaller production values is a value that is gamers' best interests. At the same time, I don't think that necessarily means divorcing yourself of judging a game based on its visuals.

And thank YHVH for that, as it's due to one of those visionaries I mentioned earlier. One that is very inexpensive compared to vast batteries of artists, animators, texture guys, etc that makes more expensive games nowadays and looks cooler and has a narrative depth that those lack and again was like how JRPGs in classic days of yore did (which some fine fellow/lady pointed out using Bahamut Lagoon and SE's stable of visual visionaries pointed out in a previous post).

I find it hard to take complaints of gibberish seriously from people who use 'addicting'.

None of that stuff is new, there was plenty of gibberish nonsense, emo main characters and silly weapons in PSOne/PS2 JRPGs too, unless hitting people with cooking implements in FFIX doesn't count. Not only that, but in Skyrim I was running around in glass armour, turning people into chickens with a wabberjack, so it's a triple-whammy for silliness and gibberish there. It was still pretty cool.

Stocke from Radiant Historia is probably one of the more practical, capable JRPG protagonists ever created.

The issue with JRPGs isn't a matter of but the quality of it. It needs to be written better and not to be steered away from what components it's made out of. Whatever they're using is fine, just make it more interesting and less stupid.

It also encourages circular reasoning- if only games with cartoony art styles are counted as JRPGs, we then get people accusing JRPGs of all looking the same etc etc.

I'm going to triple-quote these as they go very well together to illustrate my point about the double standard. I swear, if it didn't come off as so completely baseless, that so many naturally gravitated to a stronger Gen 7 NA-based library of games, then pulled a logic leap that the older Japanese stuff they liked as a kid/teen/college-goer was immature, and since they're now a Grown-Ass (Wo)Man, what they play now is naturally more mature, nuanced, and of a higher quality. Common evidence from both camps of this being an inherently mixed idea is ignored, and voila: Double Standard cuz you certainly ain't seeing a mass throng of 30yo+ gamers clamoring for Crimson Shroud, SMT4, Drakengard 3, or a small litany of other titles that juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust don't seem to quiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite get that broad groundswell their supposedly clamoured-for maturity, depth, and darkness would supposedly will into being. Fancy that.

That's why your idea for better writing has, is, and will fall on deaf ears, Shouta: it was never about quality or even maturity, but what someone likes, despite confusion on the subject.

Yeah. JRPGs have very loyal fans, but as dev costs rise having 200k people that will surely buy your game might not be enough. It's kind of a pity.

This too, and it's a rising tide that sinks all genre ships.

 

[zeopower6]

To answer the OP:

No more Moe.
Final Fantasy not involving Lightning or any of the other FFXIII cast. Basically, a project where Toriyama was banned from giving input or influence.
No more Moe.
Reduction of the stylized anime characters in favor of more realistic character design. Possibly a JRPG that finally features an Asian looking cast instead of a mainly European one with a stereotypical Japanese guy/girl.
No more Moe.
Writing that isn't reliant on basic 'pure hero/heroine saves the world from diabolically evil caricature of a antagonist' plotlines and characters.
No more Moe.

Moe isn't really that big of a thing when it comes to JRPGs outside of a few titles.

Ha, if there was one JRPG franchise that would transition well into a WRPG-style game or storytelling, it would be Suikoden.

It helps that Suikoden was loosely based on a legendary Chinese novel.

 

[Snakeyes]

This is an interesting discussion, but before even trying to answer the question, we need to figure out what "being popular in the West again" really means. Because...

A quick search on *that* sales site (I know, but it's still the easiest way to get a very rough estimate) shows that more JRPGs were sold across all last gen platforms outside Japan than in the PS1 or PS2 days, without even taking Pokemon, Monster Hunter or the rampant piracy on DS and PSP into account. If we strictly look at sales, the genre was healthier worldwide in the last generation than in what is considered as the golden age of JRPGs.

That being said, if being popular means "having a huge library of relatively high-budget console JRPGs that are mainstream enough to discuss with your non-geeky gamer friends", this becomes a bit more difficult.

The rise of the console JRPG in the mid-90s was kind of a perfect storm; developers were eager to work with polygons and the bigger storage space of the CD format, but development costs were still low enough to allow for experimentation. At the same time, all the kids born near the end of Japan's 1970s population boom were entering their mid-teens or early twenties, an age when staying at home and playing games in front of the TV for extended periods of time is still seen as somewhat socially acceptable, and devs targeted that demographic hard. Meanwhile, anime was becoming extremely popular in the West, which made the average gamer more receptive to the JRPG aesthetic and gave Japanese publishers an incentive to bring their franchises over. To top it all off, FF7 was propelled by a record-breaking marketing campaign and became a mega hit, pushing the genre into the spotlight.

You can probably tell that such a perfect combination of commercial and cultural events is unlikely to repeat itself anytime soon, but all hope is not lost. Basically:

- Mid-tier console development needs to become affordable for the average Japanese studio.
- Barring another anime boom, the characters and stories have to be targeted to an older demographic, or at least keep the juvenile stuff to a minimum.
- The genre needs a commercial hit that will make it more visible to the average consumer.

If all else fails, handheld graphics will eventually become advanced enough that games could be ported to consoles and still look good on a TV with minimal effort.

 

[redcrayon]

I really like JPRGs, but it's not much of a stretch to say that Game of Thrones features complex characters, with well reasoned motivations and solid world-building, while most JRPGs don't. Not just JRPGs, but games in general.

I agree with this. To go off on a tangent, games are about visuals as much as writing, but usually character design in any genre from any country seems to revolve far more about their outfit than their motivations.

Need a badass who can stand poetically on a cliff while raising his sword to the sky? Well, he'll need a long coat, or at least a sash, surcoat, scarf or bandana for maximum billow factor. Japanese characters seem to like wearing the whole lot, but I've always found it strange that the Assassins creed protagonists seem to love climbing and running around in at least four layers of differently cut clothing!

I suppose part of this comes down to the character needing to stand out on screen, but often I wonder why characters acclaimed as stealthy thief-types decide that a bright yellow scarf, a white cloak or just wearing lingerie is just the right accessory for them.

At what point does practical outfits limit creativity and start to impact on how sensible a character appears? Some medieval worlds seem to have a thought-through approach to clothing and fashion that still allows characters to look cool and practical, but often characters are designed to be pop stars first and sensible adventurers second. That goes for Japanese design to a greater extent but western design isn't immune to it.

For example, Cloud looks like a special ops type as they are described in that world. That's cool. Tifa is dressed like a boxer from the slums. Thats cool too- both stand out from the others while fitting into their role in the story, but their outfit says a lot about them too. It informs what they know and where they have come from. A western Equivelent would be Aveline in Dragon Age 2- she always looks appropriate as a guard captain. Or even Nathan Drake- he wears jeans and a long sleeve dirty t-shirt, and wouldn't look out of place in a bar pretty much anywhere away from a major city.

To take a TV reference, Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica wears the same military gear as the others, but her haircut is enough to make her standout, along with her body language and dialogue. Any time she's on screen, she draws attention- it's good acting, you expect her not to conform as her character screams that she doesn't, even while part of a large military organisation. She doesn't need four tabards and two huge cloaks and a magic hat to stand out. Same goes for Tyrion Lanister- his gear is of fine quality compared to others, but it's not ostentatious. Gold trim and deep reds appear everywhere as his house colours, but he doesn't try to stand out- he comes across as reserved, smart, practical but not without means, all with fairly minimalist design for a noble.

Every time I look at characters like Vanille, with an outfit made of beads, string, eight square inches of material and belts, while living in a dangerous, monster-infested wilderness, I wonder, 'Why do you dress like that? How do you survive? Your motivations seem utterly at odds with how you have dressed to achieve them'. Is that weird? Maybe it's just me.

I've gone way off topic here-

TL:dr:
reasoned motivations and solid world building applies to character outfits/visual design too. They don't have to be boring, they can tell a story, stand out from the crowd and be practical too. Don't expect me to believe the main character is a master thief if they run around with bright orange hair and a long white scarf.

 

[Toxi]

I agree with this. To go off on a tangent, games are about visuals as much as writing, but usually character design in any genre from any country seems to revolve far more about their outfit than their motivations.

Need a badass who can stand poetically on a cliff while raising his sword to the sky? Well, he'll need a long coat, or at least a sash, surcoat, scarf or bandana for maximum billow factor. Japanese characters seem to like wearing the whole lot, but I've always found it strange that the Assassins creed protagonists seem to love climbing and running around in at least four layers of differently cut clothing!

I suppose part of this comes down to the character needing to stand out on screen, but often I wonder why characters acclaimed as stealthy thief-types decide that a bright yellow scarf, a white cloak or just wearing lingerie is just the right accessory for them.

At what point does practical outfits limit creativity and start to impact on how sensible a character appears? Some medieval worlds seem to have a thought-through approach to clothing and fashion that still allows characters to look cool and practical, but often characters are designed to be pop stars first and sensible adventurers second. That goes for Japanese design to a greater extent but western design isn't immune to it.

For example, Cloud looks like a special ops type as they are described in that world. That's cool. Tifa is dressed like a boxer from the slums. Thats cool too- both stand out from the others while fitting into their role in the story, but their outfit says a lot about them too. It informs what they know and where they have come from. A western Equivelent would be Aveline in Dragon Age 2- she always looks appropriate as a guard captain. Or even Nathan Drake- he wears jeans and a long sleeve t-shirt, and wouldn't look out of place in a bar pretty much anywhere (maybe with a clean shirt though.).

Every time I look at characters like Vanille, with an outfit made of beads, string, eight square inches of material and belts, while living in a dangerous, monster-infested wilderness, I wonder, 'Why do you dress like that? Your motivations seem utterly at odds with how you have dressed to achieve them'. Is that weird? Maybe it's just me.

I've gone way off topic here-

TL:dr:
reasoned motivations and solid world building applies to character outfits/visual design too. They don't have to be boring, they can tell a story, stand out from the crowd and be practical too. Don't expect me to believe the main character is a master thief if they run around with bright orange hair and a long white scarf.

I've been wanting to post this image for a while anyway. A problem with a lot of outfits in video games is that they don't seem like things people would actually want to wear.

 

[redcrayon]

I've been wanting to post this image for a while anyway.

I love the way other posters say what I want to say with a hundredth of the words.

Bonus points for a DA2 reference as I used Aveline as a good example. I do like a nice 'bitching' surcoat!

 

[Mandoric]

IMO, another important factor to consider is that the (visual) argument isn't "western tastes" vs. "eastern tastes", it's -the tastes of diehards in each niche-.

This can cut both ways; an average middle-aged Japanese woman will find, say, Neptunia just as skeevy as an average middle-aged American woman would, because moe does exist as an extremely limited but profitable niche market comparable to, say, the '80s trend to have Boris Vallejo imitators illustrate EVERYTHING fantasy/SF.

On the other hand, the MANLY MAN power-fantasy philosophy that drives a disgust with perfectly-reasonable designs like, say, Vaan has little to do with mainstream Western tastes. There's a few small niches of people, many of whom like SatelliteOfLove said are long-term fans who played visually boyish heroes throughout their boyhoods and, graduating college around the Xbox or 360 launch and gravitating to their fresh and then-unique lineups, convinced themselves that the appeal was that they were now playing men.

This doesn't mean that the new "WRPG standard" design is more popular in the west in general, just that it's the option a particular visually-picky niche selects for. For a mass-market product, your Final Fantasies and so on, joining that niche is not particularly important.

IMO it's comparable to something like comics, where in the US there's a very small niche who are into manga, a larger but still small niche who are into spandex suits and loathe manga with every fiber of their being, and then the general public who aren't really interested in either for the most part but will buy whatever gets a decent marketing push whether it's Batman or Bleach.

"Nerdy" media are basically defined by a heightened pickiness about the exact details of (something), as the consumer scratches a particular itch or fills out a mental checklist; it's replicated in everything from the moe anime with color-coded hair and a girl for every cup size, to the superhero comics where there are several evil Spider-men in black running around distinguished by what super-parasite has infected them, to the plethora of model train gauges, to the robot model kits that are regularly reissued with a rocket launcher instead of a bazooka.
In some way, it's how the industries survive; the collector compulsion drives repeat sales, while the (faux-)creative compulsion drives high-value sales to users who will pay dearly for something that's EXAXTLY their taste.
It's incredibly important to adjust to these tastes in order to survive in the niche market.
But at the same time, the mass market will just buy a porno mag, or is showing up in theater primarily to see Tobey Maguire or Kirsten Dunst; if you have a property that you CAN sell to the mass-market, diving down the rabbit hole of fulfilling niche tastes is suicidal.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

10/10 would summon

 

[verbatimo]

Gameplay form this:

+

Art style from this:

Then we are talking.

Many of my friends would love to try EO-series, but the series art style is not their cup of tea.

 

[redcrayon]

I'm much the same in that I've been raving about it for years, but despite most of my remaining gaming pals all growing up on Wizardry, D&D, Knightmare and other dungeon-crawling antics, the anime art puts them off what would otherwise be exactly what they are looking for.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Gameplay form this:

+

Art style from this:

Then we are talking.

Many of my friends would love to try EO-series, but the series art style is not their cup of tea.

So basically demons souls. Dungeon crawling using the mechanics and a darker art style of the Souls series. EO's gameplay is far from attractive for your average rpg fanatic and the art style is a straight up disservice to the game.

 

[2+2=5]

Imo western gamers still love jrpgs, they just don't like:
-bad games
-moe, pantsu and pedo bullshits
-handhelds(where the best jrpgs are)

Sorry but this is bullshit, this is not wrpg vs jrpg, but wrpg(not even true, elder scrolls and most of the other wrpgs have full armors) vs dark souls, average jrpg armors are very different...

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Don't cater many of the games to pedophiles.

 

[redcrayon]

Sorry but this is bullshit, this is not wrpg vs jrpg, but wrpg(not even true, elder scrolls and most of the other wrpgs have full armors) vs dark souls, average jrpg armors are very different...

The red text is a bit inflammatory. It looks more like an example of good, practical-yet-awesome design vs poor, impractical-yet-silly design, for two characters that are comparable due to being in plate armour to me. That one is western and one isn't is irrelevant to the point of the original artwork, as it looks like the red text was added later.

It kinda works as an example that not all JRPG armour is silly and not all western costumes are great though.

 

[2+2=5]

The red text is a bit inflammatory. It looks more like an example of good, practical-yet-awesome design vs poor, impractical-yet-silly design, for two characters that are comparable due to being in plate armour to me. That one is western and one isn't is irrelevant to the point of the original artwork, as it looks like the red text was added later.

It kinda works as an example that not all JRPG armour is silly and not all western costumes are great though.

I think you are right, the pic makes sense this way

 

[TalesOfWin]

The Last Remnant is easily top 3 of the entire generation as far as Jrpg go and the main story stripped of all the quests lasts about ten hours. It's designed so that the lore is given to you via questing, the entire game is heavily quest-based and it feels very rewarding. If you ask most people who 100%ed the game they'll tell you they barely remember the story and that's because there's none.

Last Remnant PC is definitely the best jrpg i played this gen

 

[Zwei]

Sunny D pouch? That made me fall out of my chair laughing..

 

[Mandoric]

Don't cater many of the games to pedophiles.

The "pedo" stereotype is also, by and large, an artifact of a particular fanbase's views. Not to say that many Japanese games aren't aimed squarely at people who want a 16-year-old romantic option... Just that these people are 16 -themselves-.

Interestingly, most western media don't have significant issues with the lead character and their romantic interest being high school-aged. The inability to separate character from self, whether it be for raunchy comedy or just wish fulfillment, definitely didn't keep Hollywood from giving us American Pie or Back to the Future.

 

[TalesOfWin]

people really overreact when it comes to jrpgs. There are some big stinkers in the wrpg genre also this generation.

 

[Parfait]

Less Neptunias, less Time and Eternity

More Star Ocean(hire a new cutscene director/animator), Xenosaga, X, NiER, Final Fantasy 12, Resonance of Fate, Valkyrie Profile, kay?

Make Atelier games much better presentation wise.

And marketing.

It's as simple as that

Tales fills in the moe anime that some people need,

 

[Yellowflashdude]

people really overreact when it comes to jrpgs. There are some big stinkers in the wrpg genre also this generation.

I noticed this too. People tend to overreact when it comes to foreign industries or media of any kind (like film) because of the tendency to have skewed or myopic views, generalising things and whatnot.

 

[thesolidshark]

Sounds like a lot, or maybe most points for improvement for JRPG's goes to "make it more relatable to the west." I envision something most people would like as an idea, on paper, but fear of the execution for it - Japanese company handles the gameplay, Western company handles the rest.

If by popularity you mean financial, it was never a genre that was going to do Mario or FPS #. Too much storytelling and fantasy for many casual gamers, no matter how good it is. If you mean critical reception, and the West is judging, look to the ones more marketed for you, or for wider markets like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma.

And to give my opinion on other successes mentioned:

FF7 - the people who bring up the circumstances around that game have it right. Right time, right system to be released on, good marketing, etc. Game is very good in it's own regard, but could've bombed just as easily if one of those circumstances changed.

Game of Thrones - Forgive me for not having seen any of the show, but are most people asking for characterization and drama of that series to be in an RPG? I sort of imagine a game like that to be a Spec Ops: the Line among shooters, unless you can get some GREAT gameplay to make an awesome package. Wasn't there a Game of Thrones game released (and is it automatically terrible as a licensed game)?

3DS/Portables - This really is a pickle, if many of the good JRPGs are there and missed because few are willing to play them on portables. And it's sad because outside of digital releases (?), these games may never end up on the big consoles. Nintendo's region-lock stance really hurts stuff too. If at least half of the good JRPGs out there have made it to America, it'd be nice for Nintendo to label itself as a (not the) great JPRG center. Hope those unwilling now may try out games they've missed later when the system and games are cheaper.

FFXV - Scary how a genre's reputation for next-gen feels like it's riding on how well this game does. Glad it's already showing positives to look forward to, but I really fear how it'll do for the PS/XBX crowd if it ends up as disliked as XIII (Please do extremely well). I don't mention KH because of Disney.

 

[redcrayon]

Less Neptunias, less Time and Eternity

More Star Ocean(hire a new cutscene director/animator), Xenosaga, X, NiER, Final Fantasy 12, Resonance of Fate, Valkyrie Profile, kay?

Make Atelier games much better presentation wise.

And marketing.

It's as simple as that

Tales fills in the moe anime that some people need,

I loved the first couple of Star Ocean games, but now, after the travesty that is IV, it needs much, much more than that. While I enjoyed the battle system, it badly needs new writers, level designers, character artists, a focus on less palette-swap enemies, that's just for starters. I still have no idea how they managed to put out such a heinous game when IV's core background of space exploration after WWIII is awesome.

And another minor plot point- they actually tried to justify why the main cast use medieval weapons rather than rifles, as one enemy species have shields that block fast projectiles. Why bother? Any answer you give is going to be contradicted somewhere along the line, everyone knows its just the JRPG heritage, why not just leave it as 'medieval weapons are cool and heroic.' Worked for Star Wars.

What I would have done is give the characters the choice to use rifles if they wish, but they are useless against some species and good against others, encouraging swapping between them. Again, its about practicality making the laws of the world feel more cohesive, that kind of thing just makes more sense rather than binning the pinnacle of firearms technology, that the leads are actually familiar with, at the start after meeting one species. I know I wouldn't immediately just assume it was therefore useless against everything and my frail human form was permanently better off with a sword against flying predators! The lead characters are implied to be trained astronauts, therefore scientists, therefore a bit of scientific method wouldn't go amiss in Star Ocean. Teenage spaceship pilots with a futuristic understanding of physics, space exploration and gunplay can perhaps be allowed to react slightly better to space exploration issues than typical medieval teenagers, that kinda thing.

I admit I'm ranting about the least of its issues here, but it's kind of connected to what I said above about cohesive character design- cohesive, understandable reactions and motivations are good too, rather than claiming that someone has the discipline to train for years to fly a spaceship as part of mankind's last hope (the subtitle of the game) but is still utterly dumb in all other situations.

 

[Eusis]

Gameplay form this:

+

Art style from this:

Then we are talking.

Many of my friends would love to try EO-series, but the series art style is not their cup of tea.

Well, Wizardry 6-8 DID hit GOG a short while ago.

 

[zeopower6]

Tales fills in the moe anime that some people need,

Tales may be animeish but it is not moe.

 

[Mandoric]

And another minor plot point- they actually tried to justify why the main cast use medieval weapons rather than rifles, as one enemy species have shields that block fast projectiles. Why bother? Any answer you give is going to be contradicted somewhere along the line, everyone knows its just the JRPG heritage, why not just leave it as 'medieval weapons are cool and heroic.' Worked for Star Wars.

Conversely, justifying it worked for Dune.

 

[redcrayon]

Conversely, justifying it worked for Dune.

Yes, but just because a slow knife penetrates power fields doesn't mean that the Sardukar immediately abandoned ranged weapons across the board for melee weapons, did it. They got a knife out because Duncan Idaho turned his power field on, that's smart, rather than running at the longarm-wielding House Atriedes defenders with swords just in case, which would be foolish.

My point for SOIV was that, yes, melee was justified when introduced, but they never even tried guns again when meeting new, mainly melee-based species on new planets, which is a bit odd for characters presumably trained in a spot of science. If they really wanted the crew to use melee throughout the game, then really they needed to give a reason why the rifles couldn't be used throughout too, rather than just against that species.

 

[kswiston]

Well, Wizardry 6-8 DID hit GOG a short while ago.

More modern PC games like Legend of Grimrock and the upcoming Might and Magic X also exist.

 

[rpmurphy]

So basically demons souls. Dungeon crawling using the mechanics and a darker art style of the Souls series. EO's gameplay is far from attractive for your average rpg fanatic and the art style is a straight up disservice to the game.

Well, Atlus did try to sell Dark Spire here in NA, and no one bought it.

 

[redcrayon]

Well, Atlus did try to sell Dark Spire here in NA, and no one bought it.

Dark Spire just wasn't fun though. Whereas EO has the odd nod to modern ideas, Dark Spire is just needlessly tough and random in combat. I imported it but was really disappointed.

I admit that it being that way wasn't what sunk it though, being a niche dungeon crawler is enough of a limitation on sales on its own, even one with retro Western stylings. Dark Spire's art style was cool though, that mixed with EOs gameplay would have been the best shot outside of Japan.

 

[Parfait]

I loved the first couple of Star Ocean games, but now, after the travesty that is IV, it needs much, much more than that. While I enjoyed the battle system, it badly needs new writers, level designers, character artists, a focus on less palette-swap enemies, that's just for starters. I still have no idea how they managed to put out such a heinous game when IV's core background of space exploration after WWIII is awesome.

And another minor plot point- they actually tried to justify why the main cast use medieval weapons rather than rifles, as one enemy species have shields that block fast projectiles. Why bother? Any answer you give is going to be contradicted somewhere along the line, everyone knows its just the JRPG heritage, why not just leave it as 'medieval weapons are cool and heroic.' Worked for Star Wars.

What I would have done is give the characters the choice to use rifles if they wish, but they are useless against some species and good against others, encouraging swapping between them. Again, its about practicality making the laws of the world feel more cohesive, that kind of thing just makes more sense rather than binning the pinnacle of firearms technology, that the leads are actually familiar with, at the start after meeting one species. I know I wouldn't immediately just assume it was therefore useless against everything and my frail human form was permanently better off with a sword against flying predators! The lead characters are implied to be trained astronauts, therefore scientists, therefore a bit of scientific method wouldn't go amiss in Star Ocean. Teenage spaceship pilots with a futuristic understanding of physics, space exploration and gunplay can perhaps be allowed to react slightly better to space exploration issues than typical medieval teenagers, that kinda thing.

I admit I'm ranting about the least of its issues here, but it's kind of connected to what I said above about cohesive character design- cohesive, understandable reactions and motivations are good too, rather than claiming that someone has the discipline to train for years to fly a spaceship as part of mankind's last hope (the subtitle of the game) but is still utterly dumb in all other situations.

I agree about the not using modern weapons thing, somewhat. Except it's also a good note to not use guns on undeveloped planets.

I wouldn't mind a character that used guns, but one of the things I'd hate to see is the game turn into a bunch of characters using guns. Opera Vectra used her rifle in So2 and that was enough. Most of your party is from undev planets. the SO series has a bunch of anime physics as well.

In the end, SO is pretty anime about a lot of things and I still liked a lot of it despite that. My main, huge complaint about SO4 is not the story or even the lack of cohesiveness: it's literally how characters move, act, and react to each other. It's some of the most jarring disconcerting things I've ever seen. They're trying to be anime in an artstyle that won't work for it.


SO4's story specifically is funny to me because a lot of people complain about Edge's mood halfway through the game, except that's probably the most correct reaction to what he did. Everyone else suddenly became some kind of sociopath instantly. They do need some better writers real bad because how is it that Edge is the only one who is properly horrified there?

 

[Zing]

I don't think it's possible. JRPGs back in the SNES and PSone period had less competition from other genres. With current hardware, sports and FPS are able to graphically dominate. JRPGs are niche and did relatively well when video games themselves were relatively niche.

 

[Zing]

You can't really make a game where your characters aren't wearing plot armor, which is why most RPGs (east or west) follow some variation of the chosen one or lone hero theme. "Sorry, the evil emperor caught you and put you to death before you could even begin to stop his nefarious plan" isn't a very satisfying game conclusion

It could easily work if you continue the game as another character. I think it would be awesome to play through half the game, when you are suddenly caught and beheaded, the continue the game as your son.

Edit: oops forgot I had just posted in this thread.

 

[Eudaemonium]

I agree about the not using modern weapons thing, somewhat. Except it's also a good note to not use guns on undeveloped planets.

I wouldn't mind a character that used guns, but one of the things I'd hate to see is the game turn into a bunch of characters using guns. Opera Vectra used her rifle in So2 and that was enough. Most of your party is from undev planets. the SO series has a bunch of anime physics as well.

In the end, SO is pretty anime about a lot of things and I still liked a lot of it despite that. My main, huge complaint about SO4 is not the story or even the lack of cohesiveness: it's literally how characters move, act, and react to each other. It's some of the most jarring disconcerting things I've ever seen. They're trying to be anime in an artstyle that won't work for it.


SO4's story specifically is funny to me because a lot of people complain about Edge's mood halfway through the game, except that's probably the most correct reaction to what he did. Everyone else suddenly became some kind of sociopath instantly. They do need some better writers real bad because how is it that Edge is the only one who is properly horrified there?

In a lot of ways that arc of SO4 is like the antithesis of the similar arc in Tales of the Abyss. In TotA

Spoiler

Luke is an idiot who is manipulated by his master, whom he trusts, to kill a bunch of people, after which his disgusted companions abandon him even though he, while a fool, was merely a pawn in someone else's scheme being controlled through his insecurities and need to prove himself.

Whereas in SO4

Spoiler

Edge becomes ridiculously trusting of someone he barely met, gives into his own insecurities and memories about the ravaged world where he grew up, and as a result completely destroys a planet and everybody on it, after which his companions consistently tell him it wasn't his fault. Though it kind of was. Completely.

Also, your remark about it trying to do anime in a style ill-suited to it? Spot on. I swear that was one of the unintentionally creepiest games I've ever played.

 

[kayos90]

In a lot of ways that arc of SO4 is like the antithesis of the similar arc in Tales of the Abyss. In TotA

Spoiler

Luke is an idiot who is manipulated by his master, whom he trusts, to kill a bunch of people, after which his disgusted companions abandon him even though he, while a fool, was merely a pawn in someone else's scheme being controlled through his insecurities and need to prove himself.

Whereas in SO4

Spoiler

Edge becomes ridiculously trusting of someone he barely met, gives into his own insecurities and memories about the ravaged world where he grew up, and as a result completely destroys a planet and everybody on it, after which his companions consistently tell him it wasn't his fault. Though it kind of was. Completely.

Also, your remark about it trying to do anime in a style ill-suited to it? Spot on. I swear that was one of the unintentionally creepiest games I've ever played.

Edge was a braindead vegetable after that. Luke wasn't. He tried to redeem himself who had a crappy pity party.

 

[Parfait]

Fuck TOTA, I've never seen a more shitlord assmunch party in my life. Before that game I never put a game down soley because I was fucking mad at the party members.

Spoiler

Here's what I remember about Tota. Somewhat spoiled, extremely sheltered rich kid gets teleported out of his life by someone trying to assassinate someone he knows and trusts. Ends up having to trust assassin because the world is fucking unreal and he has no clue about it. They meet more party members that proceed to shit on him at every turn because he's a sheltered rich kid. Because I'm sure they're telling him how to act and behave and how the world works, right? Then after several hours of watching Luke take shit from various party members that he has to stay by because he has no other idea how to get home, he FINALLY meets someone who he can trust. Then the party acts surprised when he actually trusts him instead of, say, the cunts ragging on him the entire time. Then they blame him when the guy betrays him. Thanks team you're real friends

But Edge,

Spoiler

I can somewhat understand why he'd give up the crystal. He realizes what a huge fuckup he was in that moment and he'd want nothing else than to take it back, and if anything prevent it in the future. That's shown off in the ending of the game, with the creation of the UP3. But I think he has a right to be ridiculously depressed about it, he did accidentally murder humanity. The party's attempts at consoling him were just terrible. "It wasn't our earth don't worry Edge!" Oh man did I want to slap Reimi.

Regarding SO4, I didn't find the anime/3d animation thing creepy, more like it was off-putting slightly because they seemed to be twitching a lot and a lot of movements were way over-exaggerated without any fluidity or rigidity.

 

[charsace]

FF7 caused a change in JRPG's that was bad imo. FF6, PS4, CT, and a few others should have been the games that companies draw from when making JRPG's. Around the time of FF7 things took a drastic turn for the genre. Designs of characters changed. The tone of RPG soundtracks changed. Worst of all the way that plots got handled changed, causing the plot and dialogue in games to be more incoherent. This has lead to terribly written games from SE and everyone else in the genre.

 

[kswiston]

It could easily work if you continue the game as another character. I think it would be awesome to play through half the game, when you are suddenly caught and beheaded, the continue the game as your son.

Edit: oops forgot I had just posted in this thread.

That pretty much happens in Fire Emblem 4. But it still ends in the good guys defeating the ancient evil and saving the world. Maybe ASOIAF will end that way when the final books are published, but so far it has been avoiding most common fantasy story tropes.

FF7 caused a change in JRPG's that was bad imo. FF6, PS4, CT, and a few others should have been the games that companies draw from when making JRPG's. Around the time of FF7 things took a drastic turn for the genre. Designs of characters changed. The tone of RPG soundtracks changed. Worst of all the way that plots got handled changed, causing the plot and dialogue in games to be more incoherent. This has lead to terribly written games from SE and everyone else in the genre.

Final Fantasy VII was pretty consistent with what came before it. Other than 3D graphics (that would have happened regardless) the only real trend Final Fantasy VII started was the use of flashy, overly long spell animations, and pre-rendered cutscenes. Both of those trends have been dying out for years though. I don't agree with the rest of what you state.

 

[charsace]

That pretty much happens in Fire Emblem 4. But it still ends in the good guys defeating the ancient evil and saving the world. Maybe ASOIAF will end that way when the final books are published, but so far it has been avoiding most common fantasy story tropes.



Final Fantasy VII was pretty consistent with what came before it. Other than 3D graphics (that would have happened regardless) the only real trend Final Fantasy VII started was the use of flashy, overly long spell animations, and pre-rendered cutscenes. Both of those trends have been dying out for years though. I don't agree with the rest of what you state.

After the first disc the game is a mess. I like the game, but from the first time I played it at its release to the last time I played it, in 2012, the one thing that sticks out to me is how messy the plot is after disc 1 when they try to flesh out the cast more. Its funny that SE has a problem handling it when they released CT and FF6, both of which handle their plots and characters better than FF7.

 

[Eudaemonium]

Fuck TOTA, I've never seen a more shitlord assmunch party in my life. Before that game I never put a game down soley because I was fucking mad at the party members.

Spoiler

Here's what I remember about Tota. Somewhat spoiled, extremely sheltered rich kid gets teleported out of his life by someone trying to assassinate someone he knows and trusts. Ends up having to trust assassin because the world is fucking unreal and he has no clue about it. They meet more party members that proceed to shit on him at every turn because he's a sheltered rich kid. Because I'm sure they're telling him how to act and behave and how the world works, right? Then after several hours of watching Luke take shit from various party members that he has to stay by because he has no other idea how to get home, he FINALLY meets someone who he can trust. Then the party acts surprised when he actually trusts him instead of, say, the cunts ragging on him the entire time. Then they blame him when the guy betrays him. Thanks team you're real friends

But Edge,

Spoiler

I can somewhat understand why he'd give up the crystal. He realizes what a huge fuckup he was in that moment and he'd want nothing else than to take it back, and if anything prevent it in the future. That's shown off in the ending of the game, with the creation of the UP3. But I think he has a right to be ridiculously depressed about it, he did accidentally murder humanity. The party's attempts at consoling him were just terrible. "It wasn't our earth don't worry Edge!" Oh man did I want to slap Reimi.

Regarding SO4, I didn't find the anime/3d animation thing creepy, more like it was off-putting slightly because they seemed to be twitching a lot and a lot of movements were way over-exaggerated without any fluidity or rigidity.

I agree with your analysis of the two games' plots, I just find the juxtaposition rather fascinating. In one the party rags on the protagonist primarily for being naive and being manipulated, in the other they try to console the main character by trying to convince him that the millions of lives he just destroyed didn't really matter anyway, because, y'know, they weren't "our" people, just some other people over there who didn't really matter.

It was kind of simultaneously the highest and lowest point of SO4's plot, I think.

 

[akaoni]

They were never really that popular outside a few. Final Fantasy had a boom because of the presentation values and storytelling, which was a big deal for a lot of the audience. Pokemon was more like merchandise, when I got my Gameboy Colour it was in order to play Pokemon, I had no idea what type of game it even was, but still it does manage to sell respectably and is a very straightforward RPG with wide appeal. The non-twitch gameplay present in most has always had limited appeal, along with the whole 'experience by animal killing' stuff.

Cultural differences, targetting domestic audience, targetting different age demographic, budget strains from JP&HD development costs; we could go on and on really. As someone who doesn't like many JRPGs I wouldn't want them to be any more popular, this is definitely some kind of 'Western' think. Once a game starts selling more than it needs to, you enter dangerous territory to be honest.

 

[Begaria]

Gameplay form this:

+

Art style from this:

Then we are talking.

Many of my friends would love to try EO-series, but the series art style is not their cup of tea.

If you have a 3DS, sounds like Crimson Shroud would be right up your alley. It's D&D Vagrant Story. It's also made by the guy who made Vagrant Story.

 

[Bigdrbingo]

Gameplay form this:

+

Art style from this:

Then we are talking.

Many of my friends would love to try EO-series, but the series art style is not their cup of tea.

Sounds a lot like SMT4 to me.

 

[spekkeh]

I don't think it's possible. JRPGs back in the SNES and PSone period had less competition from other genres. With current hardware, sports and FPS are able to graphically dominate. JRPGs are niche and did relatively well when video games themselves were relatively niche.

I guess this is a really good point though not necessarily from the graphics angle (although that plays a part). I reckon most people played JRPGs for the stories in the SNES era, not necessarily the gameplay. Actual text was the only way to convey a convincing story in that time, and you can't really marry reading long bouts of exposition with action games. That's why you had strictly platform games, action games and story heavy JRPGs (a.o.). With improving technology, spoken text, game design improvements etc., it's now possible to converge the genres, creating story driven platform games and story driven action games. Leaving just the fans of the slow JRPG style gameplay sticking to that genre.

 

[redcrayon]

It's only been the last two generations that we've had a reasonable set of WRPGs with comparable exploration, story etc on consoles.

In the 90s, if you wanted to play an RPG on a console, the most widely known ones were JRPGs. These days I wonder if anyone wanting to even try an RPG in western countries, no matter the 'w' or the 'j' in front of it, is more likely to be recommended Fallout, Elder Scrolls or Mass Effect than FF.

 

[Mugaaz]

No fan-service, no loli chars, no absurdly strange Japanese culture stuff imbedded into the core
Innovative gameplay and storytelling, not rehashes of shit from 80s and 90s


You know, something like Dark Souls

 

[mugurumakensei]

If JRPGs had the marketing muscle SquareEnix gives Final Fantasy with the quality of gameplay and story of SMT4, they could be popular in the west.

My problem with the recent Tales games for example has been the falling off a cliff and going to into otaku pandering. Tales of Graces had nice gameplay but the dialogue, the overuse of tropes to pander to otaku, and the overall tone of the game was just bad. It's okay to pander but keep it to respectable levels.

 

[BigDes]

I do if wonder if pacing could be improved somewhat

I think a large part of what made FFVII popular (aside from the flashy visuals and marketing etc etc) is that the game threw you in straight away

A large number of the jrpgs I played in the PS1 and PS2 days started out so slowly, you start out in your home village possibly playing a minigame or two for the first half hour or so before the first major story beats happen.

In FFVII you were there doing something that seemed important right from the off. In the first twenty minutes of the game you perpetrated a major terrorist attack on the Shinra and had a sequence where you jump onto a train to get away. While there were moments where the game slows down in Midgar the pace of the game largely stays pushing you forward until Kalm a few more hours in when you're already invested in the characters and the setting.

I just think that perhaps this pace is something a lot of other jrpgs could benefit from (of course FFXIII showed how relentless pacing could be detrimental.) But it is rare for me to think that the first few hours of any jrpg are something exciting and worth sticking around for, whereas in FFVII, Midgar is what I come for.

 

[spekkeh]

If JRPGs had the marketing muscle SquareEnix gives Final Fantasy with the quality of gameplay and story of SMT4, they could be popular in the west.

My problem with the recent Tales games for example has been the falling off a cliff and going to into otaku pandering. Tales of Graces had nice gameplay but the dialogue, the overuse of tropes to pander to otaku, and the overall tone of the game was just bad. It's okay to pander but keep it to respectable levels.

Maybe Hiroshi Yamauchi was not bitter but really a visionary.

 

[Toxi]

Sorry but this is bullshit, this is not wrpg vs jrpg, but wrpg(not even true, elder scrolls and most of the other wrpgs have full armors) vs dark souls, average jrpg armors are very different...

I believe that would be included under this famous picture. In the interest of fairness...