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[Orayn]

You know what series have a very weird and interesting place in this discussion? Demon's and Dark Souls.

I've had people tell me that both games' settings and aesthetics are OBVIOUSLY JAPANESE, despite Miyazaki saying that he specifically wanted to evoke a medieval European feel and specifically citing British choose-your-own-adventure books as some of his main inspirations.

Gameplay-wise, they're different from pretty much everything. They're the successors of King's Field, which itself resembled a bit of a streamlined take on Ultima Underworld, the precursor of immersive sim games like Deus Ex. You could maybe consider them to be cousins of Gothic or Severance: Blade of Darkness, but that's a case of parallel evolution rather than direct influence.

 

[RurouniZel]

Play some of the more recent Atelier games (Atelier Ayesha is a great one to start, very little fan service compared to previous games which some people get put off by). It's about a girl trying to find her sister. No real 'saving the world' last I checked.

It's about alchemy and item creating more than battling (though you'll do a lot of battling) but it's a pretty good game and isn't a save the world storyline. (if you don't mind fan service, Atelier Rorona/Totori/Meruru also don't have save the world storylines but they do have a lot more fan service in those games)

Just a suggesting due to what you said

Seconding this recommendation.

 

[Manmademan]

You know what series have a very weird and interesting place in this discussion? Demon's and Dark Souls.

I've had people tell me that both games' settings and aesthetics are OBVIOUSLY JAPANESE, despite Miyazaki saying that he specifically wanted to evoke a medieval European feel and specifically citing British choose-your-own-adventure books as some of his main .

Demons souls designs are heavily, HEAVILY influenced by the manga Berzerk, so that might be where that claim comes from. Berserk is unique though, and likely also has western influences somewhere.

 

[Kater]

What is it with people that say that those studios shouldn't use anime style writing? Anime isn't just Naruto and Sailor Moon. Just watch "Welcome to NHK" or something like that for once and you'll understand.

This?

Spoiler

This. If anything gets people's attention, it's giant robots and dinosaurs (?).

 

[GreenMonkey]

The last couple of JRPGs I played were Lost Odyssey and Dragon Quest 8 (on the PS3).

I'm a JRPG fan but sitting down in front of a TV and playing 40+ hours was something I couldn't do for a few years (babies and toddlers running around plus work + overtime + school).

It took me almost 2 years to work my way through Lost Odyssey but I REALLY enjoyed that. It felt like a Final Fantasy game again.

Finally got around to playing DQ8... what a great game - and my daughter (6 at the time) watched me play hunks of it and liked to watch, oddly.

I wanted to try out Xenoblade but it went rare before I got around to it.

My wife picked up Ni No Kuni but got stuck after a few hours somehow and hasn't really gotten back to it (typical of her and games). We love Studio Ghibli so it looks cool though...

I was a big FF fan, but the last one I enjoyed was FFX. Somewhere along the way it turned from turn-based to ATB (on Wait mode I'll accept ATB as turn-based) to "almost all of your characters are on auto-pilot" battle systems. I felt like the strategy/thinking part leached out as the character count went down, and the button mashing went up. FFX was the last one I played for that reason.

Western RPGs have become somewhat victim to the same phenomenon - more action, less strategy. Last one there I liked was Dragon Age Origins (which was awesome). They've moved to first-person action-RPG type games mostly (I'm thinking Oblivion / Demon Souls-style type games).

 

[JustRiffled]

Just watch "Welcome to NHK" or something like that for once and you'll understand.

Very out of nowhere recommendation. I'm glad tough cause it's one my all time faves.

 

[Ganondorfo]

I dunno, what was the first game that made this genre very popular in the west? Final fantasy 7? Well let someone create that kind of game again, and let the history repeat itself. But maybe jrpgs arent suited anymore for this generation, it was mostly a SNES-PS2 kinda thing. Also, the company that made JRPGS very popular in the west, doesn't even know how to create their own jrpgs anymore, see what is becoming of Final Fantasy XIII, and all the other ex squaresoft employees are working at companies right now, who don't even want to finance them for upcoming projects.

Notice the quantity of jrpgs compared to the SNES-PS2 generation? This genre isn't made for HIGH BUDGET.

 

[H_Prestige]

More Dark Souls. Less cheesy anime shit. Absolutely do not make generic western rpg clones.

Unfortunately this strategy will be impossible to implement due to lack of talent. So we will continue to get the cheesy FF stuff along with big budget western clones.

 

[Orayn]

Western RPGs have become somewhat victim to the same phenomenon - more action, last strategy. Last one there I liked was Dragon Age Origins (which was awesome). They've moved to first-person action-RPG type games mostly (I'm thinking Oblivion / Demon Souls-style type games).

Not really? Isometric, party-based RPGs have become less prominent, but I wouldn't say that first person RPGs have taken over in their place.

More Dark Souls. Less cheesy anime shit. Absolutely do not make generic western rpg clones.

Unfortunately this strategy will be impossible to implement due to lack of talent. So we will continue to get the cheesy FF stuff along with big budget western clones.

Part of what makes the Souls series so great is that they were made with a minimum of pandering to large audiences. From Software admits that they make games for 1. the hardcore niche, 2. themselves.

 

[10k]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who say things like this actually play JRPGs.

I know, right? Some of these stereotyped come out of left field.

 

[Paracelsus]

LOTR doesn't mean identical, it means fantasy medievalesque setting you can find in whatever western work you can think of. If you think about it The Last Remnant is close to that description (if you exclude the main character being a pretty boy).

Part of what makes the Souls series so great is that they were made with a minimum of pandering to large audiences. From Software admits that they make games for 1. the hardcore niche, 2. themselves.

From made King's Field which is roughly the same yet nobody back then tried this hard to group it together with Jrpg. To be honest, if I was asking for a great game and someone told me Souls I'd be okay, if I was asking for a Jrpg and I found myself with it, I'd be pissed at whoever suggested it to me. That's like asking for a Wrpg and getting Pier Solar as a recommendation, quite close.

 

[Manmademan]

Not really? Isometric, party-based RPGs have become less prominent, but I wouldn't say that first person RPGs have taken over in their place.
.

yep. strange comparison, given that demons souls is a third person game.

dishonored is a first person rpg...the two are wildly different, but both require a ton of strategy. they're not hack and slash action games or fps shooters.

 

[H_Prestige]

Part of what makes the Souls series so great is that they were made with a minimum of pandering to large audiences. From Software admits that they make games for 1. the hardcore niche, 2. themselves.

I remember when FF used to be made the same way.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think the OP may have asked the wrong question by adding the world "again."

Even if JRPGs were never extremely popular in the west outside of Final Fantasy, that doesn't mean they can't be more popular today if they capitalize on the right things. WRPGs are probably more popular now than ever since their major transition to consoles.

I don't think JRPGs should change their gameplay much at all, at least not from the best ones. That's their own thing and we could use some variety in the console space from a mechanical perspective. That's why I still play a lot of Japanese console games.

In terms of art and story though, even if you don't believe moe is a problem, you have to admit JRPGs are generally skewed for younger audiences than what the main demographic of western gamers is. I think that Japanese developers realizing this would go a long way, because they've shown an ability to do a great job targeting older audiences when they actually try.

Basically, it wouldn't hurt if we got more of this:

XIII was a break for the west. So was XII.

XII was, XIII really wasn't. In that game's postmortem the producers admitted they looked at western games a little bit, but what they gleamed from that didn't make it into the game until very far into development.

What was so great about XII was that, according to developer interviews, they actually sat down and asked themselves "Why don't some people like JRPGs?" and made the game specifically to address that problem. Perhaps XII was trying to answer that question a few years before it had been asked. Maybe if XII and XIII had switched places in terms of when they were made, XII would've been seen as a proper modernization of the console JRPG.

 

[Orayn]

LOTR doesn't mean identical, it means fantasy medievalesque setting you can find in whatever western work you can think of. If you think about it The Last Remnant is close to that description (if you exclude the main character being a pretty boy).

Plenty JRPGs still fit that description, though, albeit with different aesthetics. There are feudal kingdoms, orc stand-ins, evil empires, and dark lords all over the place.

From made King's Field which is roughly the same yet nobody back then tried this hard to group it together with Jrpg. To be honest, if I was asking for a great game and someone told me Souls I'd be okay, if I was asking for a Jrpg and I found myself with it, I'd be pissed at whoever suggested it to me. That's like asking for a Wrpg and getting Pier Solar as a recommendation, quite close.

Yeah, this is where genre descriptions start to break down. In the strict, literal sense, the Souls games are "JRPGs" because they're (action) roleplaying games that were made in Japan. Mechanically, there's not that much you can directly compare them to. They're like the video game equivalent of monotremes or marsupials!

 

[Coxy]

they shouldnt pander to x, they should pander to y, that's much deeper more mature story writing.

 

[Manmademan]

Plenty JRPGs still fit that description, though, albeit with different aesthetics. There are feudal kingdoms, orc stand-ins, evil empires, and dark lords all over the place.

agreed. LOTR is so influential it's nearly impossible to find fantasy settings that don't draw from it. Even FF1 and DQ1 were heavily influenced by D&D for monster designs and classes, and THAT pulled from Tolkien.

 

[Asd202]

Yes, that can be, here's how.

• Diversify
• Stop Taking Shortcuts
• Grow Up

Too many JRPG's share the same tropes, similar character, same basic structure and goals. This makes them easy to predict, and reduces the value of their story telling, which is a critical flaw for a genre where story is so vitally important. They also need to brand out into different genres, different settings, and most importantly different artstyles. If they're going to be popular in the rest, they shouldn't be specifically aiming at capturing the Japanese Kotaku or fashista market. These are fine for low budget titles that they never expect to leave Japanese shores, but if they're making a game with the intention of it selling in the east as well as the west, they're going to need to play a balancing games.

Too many JRPG's take odd shortcuts in game design, that hurt the overall experience. A classic case in point would be using a menu instead of an overworld. There was a time when developers could get away with this, but now gamers can spot shoddy lazy game design like this, from a mile away.

Finally, Japanese developers need to stop developing videogames, with the intention that only children will play them. Too be fair, gaming as an adult is not as culturally acceptable as in the united states. Regardless, they cannot keep using storylines intended at capturing twelve year old, and expect it to capture American gamers, whom frequently skew older.

This is related to the diversity issue. It's okay if some RPG's have a childish plot, but games meant for older teens and adults should be written with the idea that they'll appeal to both young audiences, and older slightly more discerning audiences as wel.

Good post.

 

[Casimir]

Make an example of Wrpg that could cater to people that don't like burly vikings, LOTR or sci-fi.

The Witcher series (Fantasy setting, but not much like LOTR at all.)
Alpha Protocol
Planescape: Torment (Much more "cosmic" than typical fantasy settings.)
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Mount & Blade (Low fantasy.)
Anything by Spiderweb Software (Avernum, Geneforge, etc.)
Fallout (Unless you count anything post-apocalyptic as sci-fi.)
Deus Ex series
Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines
Dishonored

Also, the "burly Vikings" comment is just as silly as accusing all JRPGs of being about waifish teenaged boys with silly hair and ridiculous weapons.

Good list but just to add a few more:

Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader
Inquisitor


--------------------------------------------------------

To answer the OP:

No more Moe.
Final Fantasy not involving Lightning or any of the other FFXIII cast. Basically, a project where Toriyama was banned from giving input or influence.
No more Moe.
Reduction of the stylized anime characters in favor of more realistic character design. Possibly a JRPG that finally features an Asian looking cast instead of a mainly European one with a stereotypical Japanese guy/girl.
No more Moe.
Writing that isn't reliant on basic 'pure hero/heroine saves the world from diabolically evil caricature of a antagonist' plotlines and characters.
No more Moe.

 

[Orayn]

agreed. LOTR is so influential it's nearly impossible to find fantasy settings that don't draw from it. Even FF1 and DQ1 were heavily influenced by D&D for monster designs and classes, and THAT pulled from Tolkien.

Some JRPG fans are just weirdly paranoid about admitting any degree of Western influence for whatever reason. It's kind of a hard act to keep up when the genesis of Dragon Quest, the ur-JRPG, basically amounts to Yuji Horii and Koichi Nakamura combining a first person battle system like Wizardry with a top-down overworld like Ultima and putting it in a nice accessible package because they thought those games were great and wanted to do their own take on them while bringing them to a new audience.

It spawned its own sub-genre that Japan picked up and ran with, but there's no sense in denying all possible non-Japanese influence on those games.

 

[Paracelsus]

So you all agree that an Elder Scroll game with Borderlands 2 artstyle would sell equally as good?

 

[Casimir]

So you all agree that an Elder Scroll game with Borderlands 2 artstyle would sell equally as good?

Well at least in that case Stateless Films and Olly Moss might get credit for their original work.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

agreed. the quality of a middle of the road to good science fiction or fantasy novel absolutely blows away nearly all RPGs in the quality of content. Most jrpgs are still written around the level of Saturday morning cartoon.

it's not just whether religion, war, or death are present but how those themes are handled. GOT doesn't really have black and white lines drawn to say "this person is good, this person is bad." nearly everyone that's POV is shades of grey in some way, and interpretation is left to the reader.

Nearly all the Tales game have grey characters, especially Abyss.

A anime-style game of thrones JRPG would be quite hilarious. I'd definitely play that.

It would probably be a lot less boring than the actual Game of Thrones.

 

[spirity]

It would probably be a lot less boring than the actual Game of Thrones.

 

[Wray]

Explain to me why Game of Thrones is so fantastic in relation to some other JRPGs this generation. It's great yes. But I'm of the belief that everyone just thinks it's good because everyone in the theater thinks it's good.

You seriously need me to explain why the storytelling in GoT is so much better than your typical JRPG?

 

[Tex117]

Lack of anime.

Story that developers characters.

 

[Romars202129]

1. Lose the anime visuals, and move on to realistic designs.
2. Different battle systems. WRPGS were turn based too, and they used the cooldown system the newer jrpgs use. Now, they use real action game engines. Japanese games will never compete if they don't do the same.
3. No fucking moe. In fact, drop children characters altogether if you can.
4. Try to be more realistic. At least, motivationally. I don't want to see people fighting the darkness, with love and friendship anymore.

To me, a combination of Dragon's Dogma gameplay, maybe FFXV visuals[still slightly stylized, but also very realistic], and Final Fantasy pre 13 story telling is what they should be shooting for. That's a game I'd buy the hell out of anyway.

 

[kayos90]

You seriously need me to explain why the storytelling in GoT is so much better than your typical JRPG?

I asked because I'm curious as to why you think it's so absolutely amazing that you describe it in a way that defines GoT as the epitome of narrative. If you're so well versed in GoT and the subject of narratology, please enlighten me as to why you think GoT is so fantastic and how some of the greater narratives in the JRPG genre are so lowly in comparison.

 

[Romars202129]

Nearly all the Tales game have grey characters, especially Abyss.



It would probably be a lot less boring than the actual Game of Thrones.

I don't think GoT is the very best thing ever made, but whatever it is, it's not boring. Makes me think you're commenting on something you've never seen....?

 

[RedSwirl]

agreed. LOTR is so influential it's nearly impossible to find fantasy settings that don't draw from it. Even FF1 and DQ1 were heavily influenced by D&D for monster designs and classes, and THAT pulled from Tolkien.

Not to mention LOTR itself pulled from Northern European, specifically Germanic folklore. And let's not pretend a shitload of JRPGs don't pull from the same folklore either, SMT being one of the most notable examples. The Witcher manages to avoid the typical fantasy trap I think by going past Tolkien straight back to the original folklore as its inspiration, while adding a healthy dose of Slavic folklore and Polish history into the mix.

A classic case in point would be using a menu instead of an overworld. There was a time when developers could get away with this, but now gamers can spot shoddy lazy game design like this, from a mile away.

Using a menu instead of a world map is still a case of budget over creative vision I think.

That's why I don't think most Japanese developers will actually be able to compete with guys like Bethesda and BioWare in terms of money and other resources. Games like Yakuza and FFXIII-2 still use a lot of text dialog while Mass Effect, Fallout, and Skyrim each have thousands of lines of recorded dialogue. Games like FFXIII and Dark Souls avoid this problem while keeping all their dialogue voiced by having very small casts of NPCs to interact with. It's not hard to see that this is because the Japanese companies just don't have the money to blow on all that. A world map probably suffers the same problem.

 

[kswiston]

I asked because I'm curious as to why you think it's so absolutely amazing that you describe it in a way that defines GoT as the epitome of narrative. If you're so well versed in GoT and the subject of narratology, please enlighten me as to why you think GoT is so fantastic and how some of the greater narratives in the JRPG genre are so lowly in comparison.

I really like JPRGs, but it's not much of a stretch to say that Game of Thrones features complex characters, with well reasoned motivations and solid world-building, while most JRPGs don't. Not just JRPGs, but games in general.

 

[That1BlackGuy]

A number of the points in this thread in terms of modifying Japanese RPGs to appeal to Western audiences highlights the differences between the Western and Eastern cultures, at least within the context of this discussion. I think Western audiences want Eastern developers to take away elements that appeal to their native audiences and instill elements that appeal almost strictly to modern Western tastes instead.

I wish we had more Japanese & Korean GAF (at least we have Kayos) for the purposes of discussion, they could lend some real insight and opinion from the other side of the coin.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I don't think GoT is the very best thing ever made, but whatever it is, it's not boring. Makes me think you're commenting on something you've never seen....?

"Boring" is an incredibly subjective term. I've seen a few episodes, and it doesn't appeal to me. I don't like the setting, I don't find any of the characters sympathetic, and I don't find the overarching narrative compelling. Not to say it's bad, of course. Clearly many people love it.

And I think this is a greater discussion point; appeal. Rather than expressing an inherently subjective dislike of certain tropes and archetypes, it's best to look at things in context. Lose the focus on nebulous terms such as "pandering".

I don't think we need to make this into a higher-scale discussion on storytelling in general (whether it be in video games or not), but I do think this post I made in a recent thread about that subject is relevant:

As I've said in many threads like these, there isn't really a right answer here. Whether it be over the top, subdued, character-driven, plot-driven with focus on world building, emphasis placed on themes, straight-forward, complex, etc, it will all depend on who you ask.

For me, the obvious answer is for something, whether it be a plot point or a character, to be compelling.

Here's an interesting example that most people probably wouldn't think of; Disgaea 3. I loved the story, but not because of the relatively standard dialogue or the standard plot progression. No, it was the villain's motivation and themes that it implied. Without spoiling anything, it really made me question the common portrayal of a "hero", and kind of turned an absolutely vital part of fiction on its head.

So really, it depends on what you're looking for and where you can focus your attention, whether it be forgiving isolated incidents of shoddy storytelling to look at the bigger picture, or staying focused on a specific element that may give new meaning to what happens both inside that story and out (or more stuff that I'm too lazy to list right now).

So like I said, we need to look at this from an "appeal" perspective. The problem is it's hard to actually pinpoint a reason when misinformation is rampant in these kinds of discussions, and often times we're left with anecdotal evidence.

For example, the "anime is dead in the west" point is somewhat moot. Just look at how important Crunchyroll is these days. The counterpoint for that is usually "internet=/=mainstream", but that's becoming less true with each day. Eventually, it will be more financially viable for things to go straight to the internet, what with Hulu and all that stuff.

Then we forget the fact JRPGs were NEVER popular in the west minus a few outliers, so the discussion just goes in circles regardless.

 

[Manmademan]

I asked because I'm curious as to why you think it's so absolutely amazing that you describe it in a way that defines GoT as the epitome of narrative. If you're so well versed in GoT and the subject of narratology, please enlighten me as to why you think GoT is so fantastic and how some of the greater narratives in the JRPG genre are so lowly in comparison.

it's not just him. ASOIAF is widely regarded as top tier in the fantasy genre by fans and critics, and has been long before the TV show.

if you want an explanation on WHY it's good writing, considering this is a series many books long that routinely clock in at 1000 pages or more, this isn't really the place for it.

 

[Tex117]

. I don't want to see people fighting the darkness, with love and friendship anymore.

To me, a combination of Dragon's Dogma gameplay, maybe FFXV visuals[still slightly stylized, but also very realistic], and Final Fantasy pre 13 story telling is what they should be shooting for. That's a game I'd buy the hell out of anyway.

You...YOU!!! Don't tease

 

[Syril]

That's why I don't think most Japanese developers will actually be able to compete with guys like Bethesda and BioWare in terms of money and other resources. Games like Yakuza and FFXIII-2 still use a lot of text dialog while Mass Effect, Fallout, and Skyrim each have thousands of lines of recorded dialogue. Games like FFXIII and Dark Souls avoid this problem while keeping all their dialogue voiced by having very small casts of NPCs to interact with. It's not hard to see that this is because the Japanese companies just don't have the money to blow on all that. A world map probably suffers the same problem.

I don't think text dialog is a bad thing. Full voice acting in all circumstances has quite its share of downsides, like in the aforementioned FFXIII or Mass Effect where you straight up can't talk to most NPCs that you encounter. No one has the money to blow to do full voices on the scale of something like Grandia where you can talk to every random townsperson multiple times while the party members carry on conversations with them. I'd rather have text dialog on the things that aren't worth recording voices for than to have to remove interactions because of a committment to having every single line voiced.

 

[Manmademan]

I don't think text dialog is a bad thing. Full voice acting in all circumstances has quite its share of downsides, like in the aforementioned FFXIII or Mass Effect where you straight up can't talk to most NPCs that you encounter. No one has the money to blow to do full voices on the scale of something like Grandia where you can talk to every random townsperson multiple times while the party members carry on conversations with them. I'd rather have text dialog on the things that aren't worth recording voices for than to have to remove interactions because of a committment to having every single line voiced.

something else worth considering is that square wasted a metric assload of money due to bad management.

designing engines from scratch to use in a single game, artists and game designers literally not talking to each other, and an insistence on tons of pre rendered FMV when in game graphics would have done the job.

 

[Orayn]

It came out last week dude,

Portables don't count because basketball reasons, apparently.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

If Game of Thrones is the standard then Western RPGs are failing just as spectacularly in the areas where GoT excels. With the exception of the Witcher series I can't think of a popular Western RPG series that avoids moral absolutes, deals with violence and sexuality frankly, and has characters that aren't wearing Plot Armor. Certainly Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect do not meet this criteria.

And The Witcher series isn't even on the same level of success as those three series.

Obsidian's games comes closer to meeting these standards but, alas, they don't usually meet the "popular" requirement.

 

[kswiston]

If Game of Thrones is the standard then Western RPGs are failing just as spectacularly in the areas where GoT excels. With the exception of the Witcher series I can't think of a popular Western RPG series that avoids moral absolutes, deals with violence and sexuality frankly, and has characters that aren't wearing Plot Armor. Certainly Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect do not meet this criteria.

And The Witcher series isn't even on the same level of success as those three series.

Obsidian's games comes closer to meeting these standards but, alas, they don't usually meet the "popular" requirement.

You can't really make a game where your characters aren't wearing plot armor, which is why most RPGs (east or west) follow some variation of the chosen one or lone hero theme. "Sorry, the evil emperor caught you and put you to death before you could even begin to stop his nefarious plan" isn't a very satisfying game conclusion

 

[kayos90]

I really like JPRGs, but it's not much of a stretch to say that Game of Thrones features complex characters, with well reasoned motivations and solid world-building, while most JRPGs don't. Not just JRPGs, but games in general.

This is my point. Why are we comparing narratives from a TV show and a game? What's the point? I'm not denying that ASOIAF is a great feat and quite the accomplishment. Far from it. It excels in storytelling and the way they portray characters. What's the point of comparing something outside box. Should we aspire to that? Sure. It'd be awesome. But the conversation is between JRPGs, the narratives behind and how that plays a certain role in respect to the game industry.

it's not just him. ASOIAF is widely regarded as top tier in the fantasy genre by fans and critics, and has been long before the TV show.

if you want an explanation on WHY it's good writing, considering this is a series many books long that routinely clock in at 1000 pages or more, this isn't really the place for it.

I know why it's good. I'm asking if HE knows why it's good or if he's just bandwagonning. Additionally, why does GoT pertain to the relevancy of this conversation? It really doesn't.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

You can't really make a game where your characters aren't wearing plot armor, which is why most RPGs (east or west) follow some variation of the chosen one or lone hero theme. "Sorry, the evil emperor caught you and put you to death before you could even begin to stop his nefarious plan" isn't a very satisfying game conclusion

True*, but that's one of the reasons that everyone using a work from another medium as an example just doesn't make sense. One of the most notable features of that book series isn't really being reflected in any RPG designs so why are people using it as an example of the right way to make games?

*Fire Emblem arguably already uses it to good effect and similar perma-death mechanics could probably be instituted in a more traditional JRPG or Western RPG. I would also contradict myself and say that Mass Effect is an example of a series that does actually use it throughout the series.

 

[Manmademan]

This is my point. Why are we comparing narratives from a TV show and a game? What's the point? I'm not denying that ASOIAF is a great feat and quite the accomplishment. Far from it. It excels in storytelling and the way they portray characters. What's the point of comparing something outside box. Should we aspire to that? Sure. It'd be awesome. But the conversation is between JRPGs, the narratives behind and how that plays a certain role in respect to the game industry.

game of thrones was a book long before it was a TV show.

comparing the writing in a popular fantasy series to the writing in games is completely fair.

now, GOT is top tier, not just in it's genre, but period. if you look at middle of the road fantasy and sci fi, even those are leagues past what most jrpgs manage to do in terms of character motivations, world building, morality, etc.

 

[kayos90]

game of thrones was a book long before it was a TV show.

comparing the writing in a popular fantasy series to the writing in games is completely fair.

now, GOT is top tier, not just in it's genre, but period. if you look at middle of the road fantasy and sci fi, even those are leagues past what most jrpgs manage to do in terms of character motivations, world building, morality, etc.

I know that the book existed long before the TV.

Comparing the quality of the writing itself is fair. Comparing the narrative of the two mediums in its entirety is not fair. There are strict limitations on each of the medium that inhibits certain things.

However your point about character motivation, worldbuilding, morality, and such does ring true. But only to a degree. It's not like those can't exist with high quality at all. Lost Odyssey, Resonance of Fate, even Tales of Xillia 2 to a degree all exemplify excellent narrative feats. The genre is definitely capable. However, the designers choose not to.

 

[Shouta]

The issue with JRPGs isn't a matter of content but the quality of it. It needs to be written better and not to be steered away from what components it's made out of. Whatever they're using is fine, just make it more interesting and less stupid.

 

[Paracelsus]

The issue with JRPGs isn't a matter of content but the quality of it. It needs to be written better and not to be steered away from what components it's made out of. Whatever they're using is fine, just make it more interesting and less stupid.

The Last Remnant is easily top 3 of the entire generation as far as Jrpg go and the main story stripped of all the quests lasts about ten hours. It's designed so that the lore is given to you via questing, the entire game is heavily quest-based and it feels very rewarding. If you ask most people who 100%ed the game they'll tell you they barely remember the story and that's because there's none.

 

[Lysander518]

I think that JRPGs need to be streamlined. It should be easy to keep track of your quests, how to complete them, the story so far, the lore, where to find common items, etc. This does not mean that JRPGs need to be linear or dumbed down. There can still be secrets and difficult combat. What I want these games to minimize are the times where I'm aimlessly wandering around or going online to find out how to find item x for a sidequest, or times when I forget something like what the motivations of a character or faction are.

 

[Clockwork5]

More games of Chrono Trigger / FF3 (US release, i always forget the "real" number of this release) / FF7 caliber. That is all.

 

[spirity]

I think the only thing that will make jrpgs popular in the west is when they take on wrpg characteristics. But then, they wouldn't be jrpg's anymore.

So its either that, or they don't become popular in the west. The two regions have fundamental cultural differences that are evident in the games they create. You'll always get breakout hits but overall, the west make games that suit the west, and the east make games that suit the east. This is just the way it is now.

 

[GreenMonkey]

yep. strange comparison, given that demons souls is a third person game.

dishonored is a first person rpg...the two are wildly different, but both require a ton of strategy. they're not hack and slash action games or fps shooters.

3rd person, 1st person, whatever. Is Gears of War that much different than an FPS? I guess I should have said "1st person/third person single-protaganist RPGs" or something.

I mean the decline of party-based RPGs of yore, instead, being replaced by one guy running around and doing stuff. Oblivion, Demon's Souls, The Witcher, etc. There's plenty of that. Where's the Pool of Radiance / Betrayal at Krondor / Baldur's Gate / Dragon Age style games where you've got a party of people? Where it's about turn-based or quasi turn-based combat at least (I'm thinking Infinity Engine style games).

Dragon Age was the last classic-style RPG I can think of. And that totally went off the rails for DA2.