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[Rockandrollclown]

Were JRPGs ever popular in the west? I mean outside of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts were JRPGs ever selling massive amounts? I kind of think that as the market for video games in the west grew, the demand for JRPGs really didn't grow at all.

 

[DigitalDevilSummoner]

@Forkball, kayos90

I don't know how much you know about Japan outside Naruto but you are comparing vaguely similar stuff very superficially.

Imperials, hierarchy, family, tradition, status, formality are all core traits of the Japanese society throughout the centuries. And the relation of Versus with FF XIII was nothing more than a common deity. My personal take remains the same, this is neither a return to older final fantasy nor an opening to the west, it's a take on a futuristic Japanese society.

 

[That1BlackGuy]

I don't feel like it's some dire situation like some people try to make it out to be. There have been very good JRPGs this generation across many platforms, relevant or not.

You could look at a few different genres and see how their relevancy dropped this gen, seeing at it was dominated primarily by shooters and actions games. I'm not understanding why people feel the need to pinpoint JRPGs as if they're dying out in quality. That's far from the case.

JRPGs as a genre is not in dire straits, in the context of this thread we're not specifically referencing the actual quality of the games the genre produces but more so we're talking in relatives (which, in fairness makes anything look bad). JRPGs are specifically targeted on the basis of perception which took a hit due to globalization, market shift and cultural clash.

 

[zoukka]

Were JRPGs ever popular in the west? I mean outside of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts were JRPGs ever selling massive amounts? I kind of think that as the market for video games in the west grew, the demand for JRPGs really didn't grow at all.

I'm inclined to agree to a point. As a matter of fact I think that the market for slower, bigger time investment games in general has gone down. Those old massive JRPG's where everything was handcrafted seem like a fleeting dream today. Who would have the resources and the balls to undertake in such a project anymore?

 

[kevm3]

Square used to have such a diversity in artists putting their imprint on games. Final Fantasy had amano. Chrono Trigger had Akira Toriyama. Bahamut Lagoon had a very beautiful, gritty style to it:

Saga Frontier 2 had it's own art style, as did Legend of Mana. Then you had Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story taking on Yoshida's art style. Xenogears had it's own distinct look. Square had a huge variety of some of the most talented artists in the business, but now it looks like a Nomura fest with prettyboy emos running everywhere. I actually liked Nomura's designs on FF7 and Parasite Eve a lot, but after that? Not so much.

 

[Riposte]

Stop being JRPGs and being action games probably. We are already there for "WRPGs" and most of the popular JRPGs.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Were JRPGs ever popular in the west? I mean outside of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts were JRPGs ever selling massive amounts? I kind of think that as the market for video games in the west grew, the demand for JRPGs really didn't grow at all.

I wouldn't say massive amounts, but my guess is that they were probably profitable since up to last gen we were rarely denied localizations and there was a big number of games.

 

[That1BlackGuy]

I'm inclined to agree to a point. As a matter of fact I think that the market for slower, bigger time investment games in general has gone down. Those old massive JRPG's where everything was handcrafted seem like a fleeting dream today. Who would have the resources and the balls to undertake in such a project anymore?

Very true, the industry for this genre is dictated by the output of its larger publishers who have the resources to undertake such tasks. However, given the changes in the taste of the wider market (in more ways than one) it would more than likely be a death sentence to invest so much into something the market simply wouldn't accept.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Stop being JRPGs and being action games probably. We are already there for "WRPGs" and most of the popular JRPGs.

FFXV is gonna meet us halfway

 

[That1BlackGuy]

I wouldn't say massive amounts, but my guess is that they were probably profitable since up to last gen we were rarely denied localizations and there was a big number of games.

That's a very big factor, the overall market (outside of the outliers) didn't grow however HD development served as a large detriment to many Japanese developers on the home console front. I think while the market for JRPGs didn't grow during the Six generation, you had a dedicated contingent of buyers supporting the genre's output.

 

[Clear]

Nier would never have been a huge seller, but the way it dropped onto the market a month after FFXIII really hurt it. At least in Japan there was a 4 month gap. but overseas.... eesh.

As it stood, it got the worst of both the backlash over FFXIII's gameplay, and a very unfavourable visual comparison with the ultra-budgeted FF-title.

Terrible marketing choice by SE, but I guess they really didn't expect XIII to disappoint so many people.

 

[Stone Ocean]

That's a very big factor, the overall market (outside of the outliers) didn't grow however HD development served as a large detriment to many Japanese developers on the home console front. I think while the market for JRPGs didn't grow during the Six generation, you had a dedicated contingent of buyers supporting the genre's output.

Yeah. JRPGs have very loyal fans, but as dev costs rise having 200k people that will surely buy your game might not be enough. It's kind of a pity.

 

[LosDaddie]

Ease up on the Saturday morning anime tropes and designs.
Less moe pandering.
Better writing.

Done in one.

Doing away with the heavy anime-inspired visuals would help a lot.

 

[Forkball]

@Forkball, kayos90

I don't know how much you know about Japan outside Naruto

This was maybe the most ignorant thing anyone's ever said about me on NeoGAF, and that includes someone thinking I was Curt Schilling.

Imperials, hierarchy, family, tradition, status, formality are all core traits of the Japanese society throughout the centuries. And the relation of Versus with FF XIII was nothing more than a common deity. My personal take remains the same, this is neither a return to older final fantasy nor an opening to the west, it's a take on a futuristic Japanese society.

I DON"T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU KNOW ABOUT JAPANESE CULTURE (I'M AN EXPERT)...

Those traits are part of a lot of societies throughout history, not specifically Japan. There is nothing in FFXV that strikes me as uniquely Japanese outside of the character design. It is DEFINITELY not a step towards making FF "more Japanese." The game is obviously trying to appeal to the west with its more modern setting and less fantastical character designs. Look at the old FFXIII Versus footage. There was quite an emphasis on gunplay and more action oriented gameplay, something strikingly different from past FF titles. Have you not been paying attention to Square for the past generation? They are clamoring to appeal to the west.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Ease up on the Saturday morning anime tropes and designs.
Less moe pandering.
Better writing.

Pretty much all of this. To me JRPGs are about 50% story and 50% gameplay. I can deal with and enjoy minor tweaks and/or variations to tried and true turn based combat as long as it's fun and well crafted, but if the story is terrible like most JRPGs this gen has been, I can't put in the 30 or so hours and enjoy it. After a while, the combat will get repetitive and I won't have any reason to continue.

In other words, step up your writing skills. Avoid the classic tropes as much as possible.

 

[BadWolf]

Length and padding is definitely an issue I think.

Make them shorter and feel fuller. Heck I'd probably replay them if they did that.

Battle systems that depend more on skill than levels would be better too.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

they could start by releasing the games on steam

Also this. Not that it will make them mainstream, but I imagine they are missing out on a HUGE audience in the west who would be interested in their games if they were on PC.

 

[redcrayon]

Yes, but often adult stories aren't for kids because gore/sex but because they require higher intellectual comprehension.

True, but I haven't seen an RPG with an '18' label yet that really benefitted from a storyline that requires such comprehension.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

The problem I have with that kind of classification is when it becomes 'every RPG from Japan that uses a quasi-realistic art style is a WRPG'.

This pisses me the fuck off

 

[redcrayon]

This pisses me the fuck off

It also encourages circular reasoning- if only games with cartoony art styles are counted as JRPGs, we then get people accusing JRPGs of all looking the same etc etc.

 

[Wray]

Better writing.

Better writing.

Better writing.

But seriously...better writing. No more teenage emo shit with terrible end bosses who want to take over/destroy the world. Stuff that's darker, grittier, and more adult.

Edit - Problem isnt with the art style. You can have a really good written story with adult and complex themes and arcs, while still presenting it with Dragon Quest 8 style graphics and animation.

 

[JustRiffled]

True, but I haven't seen an RPG with an '18' label yet that really benefitted from a storyline that requires such comprehension.

Media is not rated for how intellectual you have to be for story.

Dragon Quest has remained approachable to this day. Draw from their designs and what makes them timeless.

So you want everything Toriyama styled? lol

 

[imBask]

Better writing.

Better writing.

Better writing.

But seriously...better writing. No more teenage emo shit with terrible end bosses who want to take over/destroy the world. Stuff that's darker, grittier, and more adult.

this.

 

[kayos90]

@Forkball, kayos90

I don't know how much you know about Japan outside Naruto but you are comparing vaguely similar stuff very superficially.

Imperials, hierarchy, family, tradition, status, formality are all core traits of the Japanese society throughout the centuries. And the relation of Versus with FF XIII was nothing more than a common deity. My personal take remains the same, this is neither a return to older final fantasy nor an opening to the west, it's a take on a futuristic Japanese society.

I lived in Korea half of my life and visited Japan for a week. I have a very good understanding of how those two countries work, how their culture works, and how their people react in a given situation. You don't need to assume how much I know about Japan or whatever else. If you want to have a good conversation then bring up the points and refute them, agree with them, or add more information to it. You're bringing in an unneeded factor that basically borderlines on ad hominem. We don't need that here.

Having said that, imperial hierarchy, notion of felial bonds, status, formality, and whatnot are not unique to Japan at all. In fact if you've been paying attention at all XV takes heavy European influences from the way the dialogue is written to the architecture of the buildings. If you're thinking that the game is inspired by Japanese cultural notions then you have the wrong idea. This isn't a futuristic Japanese society. It's a modern Shakespearean-esque epic poetry with various relationships to old European monarch society with the style of classical epics.

 

[Esura]

Better writing.

Better writing.

Better writing.

But seriously...better writing. No more teenage emo shit with terrible end bosses who want to take over/destroy the world. Stuff that's darker, grittier, and more adult.

What is more "adult" anyway? I see this thrown around a lot and I'm not quite sure what people are expecting from an "adult" RPG.

 

[imBask]

What is more "adult" anyway? I see this thrown around a lot and I'm not quite sure what people are expecting from an "adult" RPG.

the exact opposite of any Tales serie story, I think

I don't mind a less "adult" story if the writting is great though, something like Persona 4

 

[Augemitbutter]

just put them on home consoles again and give them a budget, that's all. it can be 100% anime, that was never a problem. you can make anime without embarassing moments and child protagonists.

and if you want to stick to children, make it ghibli. Ni No Kuni sold a lot more than publishers anticipated. shows how much faith they have in the genre.

 

[kayos90]

the exact opposite of any Tales serie story, I think

Uh... Tales games can be immature but it's hardly the embodiment of what is considered opposite of "adult."

 

[Arthea]

Edit - Problem isnt with the art style. You can have a really good written story with adult and complex themes and arcs, while still presenting it with Dragon Quest 8 style graphics and animation.

really no, no way.
Ever heard of diversity? We have enough dark and gritty, pseudo adult in the west. Not everything needs to be the same. Not every game is for every person, nor it should be.

 

[useyourfist]

I think there is a false perception of Jrpgs as unpopular. i have always thought that the transition to the HD era caused alot of developmental issues for Jrpg devs which when mixed with the allure of COD sales made them try and grab some of that western money by making different genre games or westernising their Jrpgs. This led to a reduction in the amount of Jrpgs being made, whilst the ones being made no longer catered as much for there original fans..which caused an evil circle of the Jrpg genre getting worse/less attention..FFXIII being underwhelming for the majority only added to that.

However the success of ni no kuni, FFxv and kingdom hearts 3 give me hope that maybe next gen us jrpg fans may recive more high quality JRPGs. I can never see it reaching snes/psx levels of greatness but im hopefull we can get a repeate of the PS2 era...maybe that just wishful thinking though!

 

[Wray]

What is more "adult" anyway? I see this thrown around a lot and I'm not quite sure what people are expecting from an "adult" RPG.

Compare something like Game of Thrones to your average Tales of Terribad plot.

Actions have consequences. The bad guys win. Good guys die. War is brutal. Characters have real motivations beyond destroying/saving the world. Characters have depth. Characters engage in well written dialog, etc etc.

 

[Manmademan]

Got it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Edit: Just saw the price for a copy. Holy shit. Hopefully I can find a cheaper one.

you can't. that game is rare as hell and everyone knows it.

it's not "exactly" what you were asking for though. You are very much a random joe but quickly gain "chosen one" status via a rune with tons of power that renders you immortal.

armies immediately choose you as their figurehead leader in a rebellion against the local tyrant, even though you're 13 or so with no experience. so...yeah. I like the game but it still falls victim to your standard tropes here and there.

since it's really not realistic for most gamers to play due to cost, I would probably recommend 5. same gameplay and themes, but has aged a little better (suiko 2 is full of bugs) and is FAR cheaper.

That one you start as royalty, but a male minor noble in a female run kingdom. You're basically a nobody, but your rise to power is slightly more plausible.

 

[kayos90]

Compare something like Game of Thrones to your average Tales of Terribad plot.

Actions have consequences. The bad guys win. Good guys die. War is brutal. Characters have real motivations beyond destroying/saving the world. Characters have depth. Characters engage in well written dialog, etc etc.

Tales is written with a specific audience in mind and caters to it. It's a niche franchise. It's not aspiring to be some grand masterpiece. It knows exactly what it wants to be and where it wants to be and knows how to do it. It's not a simple matter of being bad or whatnot. Can it be something more? Always. Will it? Probably not.

 

[redcrayon]

Media is not rated for how intellectual you have to be for story./

No, but my point still stands- I haven't seen ANY RPG, no matter the rating, with intellectual themes so complex the 12-year-old me wouldn't have understood it, so until we see an RPG that actually covers such subject matter rather than using 'mature' in its adolescent sense to just mean more blood and tits on show, I don't see the point of dividing stories up for kids and adults when plenty of epic stories told in the last few thousand years have inspired kids for generations.

At the moment, 'adult' RPGs still dwell on the same classic subject matter of war, religion and unrequited loves that RPGs aimed at a younger audience do, it's just that one of them has annoying child characters and the other has awkward sex scenes, neither development helps other than dividing the market up into brackets to be pandered to.

 

[Manmademan]

No, but my point still stands- I haven't seen ANY RPG, no matter the rating, with intellectual themes so complex the 12-year-old me wouldn't have understood it, so until we see an RPG that actually covers such subject matter rather than using 'mature' to just mean more blood and tits, I don't see the point of dividing stories up for kids and adults. At the moment, 'adult' RPGs still dwell on the same classic subject matter of war, religion and unrequited loves that RPGs aimed at a younger audience do.

go play alpha protocol, then come back.

 

[Wray]

Tales is written with a specific audience in mind and caters to it. It's a niche franchise. It's not aspiring to be some grand masterpiece. It knows exactly what it wants to be and where it wants to be and knows how to do it. It's not a simple matter of being bad or whatnot. Can it be something more? Always. Will it? Probably not.

And that's why Tales games will always have the same quality "story wise" as a serialized 90's teen show instead of something fantastic like Game of Thrones.

 

[kayos90]

No, but my point still stands- I haven't seen ANY RPG, no matter the rating, with intellectual themes so complex the 12-year-old me wouldn't have understood it, so until we see an RPG that actually covers such subject matter rather than using 'mature' in its adolescent sense to just mean more blood and tits on show, I don't see the point of dividing stories up for kids and adults when plenty of epic stories told in the last few thousand years have inspired kids for generations.

At the moment, 'adult' RPGs still dwell on the same classic subject matter of war, religion and unrequited loves that RPGs aimed at a younger audience do, it's just that one of them has annoying child characters and the other has awkward sex scenes, neither development helps other than dividing the market up into brackets to be pandered to.

Xillia 2 isn't out yet but it's one of the best narratives I've experience in a JRPG and is certainly the most mature in the franchise. Though, that's probably not saying much lol.

And that's why Tales games will always have the same quality "story wise" as a serialized 90's teen show instead of something fantastic like Game of Thrones.

Explain to me why Game of Thrones is so fantastic in relation to some other JRPGs this generation. It's great yes. But I'm of the belief that everyone just thinks it's good because everyone in the theater thinks it's good.

 

[Canis lupus]

Compare something like Game of Thrones to your average Tales of Terribad plot.

Actions have consequences. The bad guys win. Good guys die. War is brutal. Characters have real motivations beyond destroying/saving the world. Etc.

So much this. I want to see a JRPG without any cliches and one that doesn't use the same recycled plot.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Not going to happen, most people in the west think JRPG's are boring as hell and the story's stupidly convoluted nonsense.

 

[redcrayon]

go play alpha protocol, then come back.

I have done, alright, you've got me there, but RPGs themed around a recognisable modern world of espionage and terrorism are few and far between- I was more talking about the classic JRPG, but alright. Certainly the world of Deus Ex (and cyberpunk RPGs in general) was fine for the younger me, maybe it's the sci-fi setting and the sense of distance that fantasy worlds give. I read loads of epic fantasy when I was a kid and would have felt annoyed if anyone had said it was 'too old' for me even if the odd sentence between the lead male and female (ooh-er!) went over my head, and equally annoyed if I was told I was only allowed to read books with cartoon characters and teenage heroes.

I suppose what I'm really getting at is that this need to identify a small market and aim specifically at that, whether its 30-something men or 12-year-old kids, increases short-term success but doesnt allow the game to escape that ghetto, rather than aiming just a good story at everyone, which might not gain you a rabid loyalist fanbase but might also allow wider appeal. The vast majority of the best literature available is readable by just about anyone once they are comfortable with reading novels, so why restrict your appeal (either through skewing younger with child characters or older with particular adult themes) when it's just not necessary? If gaming had such a wide spectrum of good storytelling that going niche was a way to make yourself stand out, I could understand it, but it doesn't.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Dragon Quest gained some importance in the West with IX and Nintendo's marketing but they (and SE) dropped the ball with the franchise by not properly pushing DQMJ2 and DQVI Remake, making DQX an MMORPG on Wii instead of another DS game and withholding the 3DS games from the rest of the world. I thought it had a decent chance at capturing the Pokemon audience but it wasn't meant to be I guess.

Best bet for JRPGs to sell great numbers in the West are dropping the anime/moe inspired designs and different gameplay. Turn-based battles with full-party control won't bring in the big numbers anymore outside of established franchises I fear.

 

[Nightengale]

I think there is a false perception of Jrpgs as unpopular. i have always thought that the transition to the HD era caused alot of developmental issues for Jrpg devs which when mixed with the allure of COD sales made them try and grab some of that western money by making different genre games or westernising their Jrpgs. This led to a reduction in the amount of Jrpgs being made, whilst the ones being made no longer catered as much for there original fans..which caused an evil circle of the Jrpg genre getting worse/less attention..FFXIII being underwhelming for the majority only added to that.

However the success of ni no kuni, FFxv and kingdom hearts 3 give me hope that maybe next gen us jrpg fans may recive more high quality JRPGs. I can never see it reaching snes/psx levels of greatness but im hopefull we can get a repeate of the PS2 era...maybe that just wishful thinking though!

One of the flaws behind these kind of assumption is whether or not the Japanese developers even want the 'western' audience.

Valkyria Chronicles is one such example. VC1 sold very well, and contributed a large amount of its sales from the non-Japanese market. But due to the cost of the game-engine development, and the heavy initial cost to develop for the PS3, it wasn't really as successful as hoped.

So they just decided to abandon the larger market and focus to cater entirely on their domestic audience on the PSP.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

JRPGs relevant in the west:
Pokémon
Final Fantasy(although this series is almost sonic status right now, lives completely off of a dedicated fan base.)
Dark Souls
Kingdom hearts
(am I missing anything?)

What makes the games above popular in the west and what could others learn from them?

They were never super popular to begin with and Final Fantasy is still fairly popular.

 

[zoukka]

Better writing.

Better writing.

Better writing.

But seriously...better writing. No more teenage emo shit with terrible end bosses who want to take over/destroy the world. Stuff that's darker, grittier, and more adult.

The writing was never good. It's just that voice acting brought it to another level and made is clear how bad it has always been.

 

[Manmademan]

And that's why Tales games will always have the same quality "story wise" as a serialized 90's teen show instead of something fantastic like Game of Thrones.

agreed. the quality of a middle of the road to good science fiction or fantasy novel absolutely blows away nearly all RPGs in the quality of content. Most jrpgs are still written around the level of Saturday morning cartoon.

it's not just whether religion, war, or death are present but how those themes are handled. GOT doesn't really have black and white lines drawn to say "this person is good, this person is bad." nearly everyone that's POV is shades of grey in some way, and interpretation is left to the reader.

 

[Arthea]

Reading through this topic becomes clear that western gamers want JRPGs to perish.
Because if you turn JRPG in WRPG is obviously not JRPG anymore.
Captain to the rescue. Just pointing out the obvious.
Why people who don't like JRPGs in principle would want to play them, or change them, or talk about them. Never could understand that.

 

[kayos90]

Reading through this topic becomes clear that western gamers want JRPGs to perish.
Because if you turn JRPG in WRPG is obviously not JRPG anymore.
Captain to the rescue. Just pointing out the obvious.
Why people who don't like JRPGs in principle would want to play them, or change them, or talk about them. Never could understand that.

I can't describe it exactly but I felt like I was reading tautology right there.

 

[Arthea]

I can't describe it exactly but I felt like I was reading tautology right there.

you can look at it that way. (><)
But seriously, aren't you tired of people constantly complaining about art style, teenage characters, gameplay and everything else, literally everything. If I don't like certain genre, I don't play it, not try to ruin it for everyone else (discussions including), if you see my point.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Compare something like Game of Thrones to your average Tales of Terribad plot.

Actions have consequences. The bad guys win. Good guys die. War is brutal. Characters have real motivations beyond destroying/saving the world. Characters have depth. Characters engage in well written dialog, etc etc.

Were talking about video games here.

The only good wrpgs stories I can think of this gen are Deus Ex HR and Witcher 2.

 

[DigitalDevil]

I know for me personally, more AA releases on psn/xblive would be great. I know there have been a slew of solid releases on handhelds this gen, but I, like many aging gamers, dont particularly like looking at a tiny screen for 40+ hours anymore. They don't have to be triple a, I would be perfectly happy with upscaled sprites that look decent on a big TV. Just let me sit on my couch, dammit!

Favorites for me this gen include Ni No Kuni, Nier, FFXIII-2, Eternal Sonata, Demons/Dark Souls, P3 and P4 (if you count those).