As someone ridiculously in love with the SO universe I can agree that it's the high/low.
Im really interested in seeing an explanation for that dimensional travel, though. Come on SOV.
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What would it take for JRPGs to be popular in the west again? Is it even possible?
- Thread starter BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
- Start date
As someone ridiculously in love with the SO universe I can agree that it's the high/low.
Im really interested in seeing an explanation for that dimensional travel, though. Come on SOV.
yuuup. I really don't understand why so many folks are aiming their complaints at amazing demon art and not towns as menus, which is a much bigger bummer. Should have allocated the voice acting budget to getting more of that exploration!
Wouldn't that be more best suited for Atelier?
Doug Heffernan
Member
When they stop being stuck in the PS2 era and actually evolve.
Kingdom Hearts 3 doesn't look very promising either...
Kingdom Hearts 3 doesn't look very promising either...
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
It seems like people who come in to say stuff like this either don't play rpg's or they haven't played any since 10+ years ago.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
THIS
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Because transitions are awesome. Nothing more epic than some villain giving a crazy speech following by the screen breaking into shards of glass.
Cold, but to me, most wrpgs don't have much fun in the play department. I think the Witcher and the Witcher 2 are still the best wrpgs ever made and Fallout and Skyrim are terrible when it comes to gameplay. Dragon Age 1 was pretty nice at least. Then they ruined that...
Another point I think should be made is for more jrpgs on the PC. I'm trying to plat Star Ocean 4 right now and I literally cannot proceed because the game keeps freezing in battle. I cannot even narrow down this issue, I have no idea what causes it. I thought it was the hard drive, or the install, or overheating, but none of these seem to be the issue whatsoever, and google keeps giving me totally unrelated freezes.
Now, imagine on the PC, there'd be like a billion more people finding problems like this and fixing them. How did I get 145ish hours into this and never freeze until now, then freeze constantly while other games seem to work fine?
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Gee...I wonder if their claims to want games what fit these criteria will actually translate into sales... (Watch the video, its DAMNINGLY good)
That's a good point, the Team Symphonia (RIP) games had a nice, clean, decent amount of logical anime character interaction and behavior. From Lloyd resting his left arm on his scabbards while listening in a conversation, to Tear massaging Guys arm to spook him from dragging Luke back just yet, to Estelle's revealing she knows Yuri's Secret in a surprisingly sibling-like way, it shits all over the cinematic SOs from great height. It's got some nuance. It's got flavor. It's watchable. Team Destiny narratives well....
Most people under 30 or so don't remember when computers in homes weren't ubiquitous. Before Netscape, AOL, and Windows 95, PCs previous to this were expensive, complicated beasts what ran wierd, numbers and abstraction-heavy games, especially the RPGs. Consoles on the other hand, and for quite a long while afterwards to mid-Gen 6, were in more homes of kids who played electronic games.
WRPGs were therefore the outlier, which nerd-ass nerdburglers played whose dads were NASA rocket scientists or some shit, whereas the console's JRPGs were for normal kids, as they were flashy, colorful, and more modest in complexity and on cheaper, more common hardware.
Granted, big WRPGs resemble the JRPGs of old and new faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more than than they do the old WRPGs...
Kane-kane-ko...where are you...we got some work to do now...
lordchompy
Member
This boy looks like if a clown joined the army.
Well, I believe the Wizardry games DID do well on GOG, but we'll see what happens with Might & Magic!
Although it really wouldn't surprise me if it turned out if the art wasn't all that damning to prospective buyers. That is, there might be significant overlap between those who'd buy Wizardry on GOG or M&MX, but for the most part if someone didn't get EO but those games it might be down more to platform preferences, that they're primarily PC/console gamers and have little to no interest in handhelds.
There's also Elminage, but that's got so many issues it's probably worthless as a counter example.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Gameplay form this:
+
Art style from this:
Then we are talking.
Many of my friends would love to try EO-series, but the series art style is not their cup of tea.
I wouldn't enjoy Etrian Odyssey as much if it wasn't for it's great artstyle. The backgrounds and art are gorgeous, I do understand the gamers that don't like the designs like the Dancer thought. It's a series that really needs more marketing behind it...
It's a hardcore dungeon crawler so casual JRPG fans won't like it
It has a cute artstyle so other gamers won't like it
and it's on handhelds
Such a good series, it's just unfortunate that it's combination of gameplay/Artstyle/plataform doesn't help it reach even JRPG fans. I'm quite lucky and love everything about it, but I understand how the vast majority does, at least it now has a demo on the eshop and some of my friends played it and enjoyed it a lot.
Cameron122
Member
Have Yasumi Matsuno make more games
Give me more grand, morally grey stories.
Give me more grand, morally grey stories.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Matsuno is godly, even the short but sweet Crimson Shroud was great because of his writing.
Cameron122
Member
How it got by me that he was involved in Crimson Shroud I will never understand.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I should've said "Gee...I wonder if their claims to want games what fit these criteria will actually translate into sales from them..." but you make a good point about the handheld thing concerning EO 'n co. Thing is though, I need to see evidence of people making these claims actually following thru; most of those who stumble into and go gaga over the deeper and/or darker JRPGs are those who seem to be trying them out on a lark and have no real misconceptions outside an occasional "I thought these were TOO dark/deep/difficult).
It's disingenious for one to demand/recommend something as a criteria for one's business then not follow thru with a sale or not take credit for the bad advice when it doesn't work. Contributes nothing, looks bad.
Manmademan
Member
You know, it's funny this thread popped up right after I saw the thread about This shit.
Thread here:
Square Enix announces new harem RPG
Thread here:
Square Enix announces new harem RPG
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Nothing from Matsuno not named Final Fantasy is popular in the west.
hydragonwarrior
Member
I'm thinking JRPG's are still popular but the amount that sold back in the SNES/PS1/PS2 days were enough to be profitable. Nowadays you need a lot more sales for a JRPG to be successful, and because of that, we see fewer of them. JRPG's were always going to be in that large niche of guaranteed consumers but it's not always enough people nowadays to make the return worth it.
That's my take on it anyway.
That's my take on it anyway.
Please, CT had some of the best transitions when it came to boss battles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWEs_M7822I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV-cMtyopSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7JgAuFYxKc
GOAT stuff right there
Sorry, I think you are just speaking from nostalgia.
I liked PS4 and FF6 and they were good games but hardly the be all end all of JRPGs.
As far as CT, believe it or not, I could never get into it, main reason is that I did not like the character design.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Someone hasn't reached the bottom of Naraku.
Shattering glass is for hipsters; fade-ins forever! As for why? For most cases, it's probably because the lack of transitions effects level design; especially for stuff like the Linear-Motion Battle System in the Tales games.
I think he means in terms of art assets. It seems like that's been either a side effect of or reason for so many Japanese developers sticking with the PSP and now the 3DS -- because they don't have the budget for graphics on the same level as Mass Effect or The Witcher 2. Only the biggest Japanese publishers have been able to do this. Even Demon's Souls, for all its beautiful art direction, runs on a very modest graphics engine.
They didn't even overlap then, it was just easier back then to cover up how Japanese the games looked.
The graphics were so simple players could imagine whatever they wanted to represent the proceedings onscreen, and most of the time developers would completely change the box art for the North American version.
Battle transitions are one of the things that has always put me off JRPGs. They are probably my most prevalent pet peeve in all of gaming.
Having to constantly transition back and forth between real time exploration and turn-based combat invariably makes me tired and bored of the game I'm playing, no matter how good it is. This has happened to me in literally every single JRPG I've ever played with battle transitions.
When I played Final Fantasy XII and started playing WRPGs they felt infinitely smoother because of the total lack of battle transitions. It became much easier for me to spend hours and hours playing those games.
Even completely menu-based games are preferable to transitions in my opinion. At least there's a sense of consistency in games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, or Etrian Odyssey.
I really do wish battle transitions could be abolished from RPGs in general. Either be 100% real time or 100% menu-based.
Ugh, no. JRPGs only just got out of the "dark and seeeeeeerious" rut that FFVII's success threw them into, I don't want to go back there ever again.
You will take the social game and you will
like
My god am I glad that I'm not a Star Ocean fan.
Hours Left
Member
JRPGs are already on the upswing in the US, and have been for the past half a year or so.
Very good video - however he is somewhat wrong about coffee - most coffee geeks are not big fans of dark roasts.
Absolutely 100% on the money with regards to video games, though. Worth watching.
Gameplay form this:
+
Art style from this:
Then we are talking.
Many of my friends would love to try EO-series, but the series art style is not their cup of tea.
Hate to be "that guy", but man that artstyle in that EO game turns me off so much I doubt I'll ever play it. Which is a shame, as I really like Strange Journey a lot, and that game pretty much looks like Strange Journey from a mechanics standpoint.
Edit: And yeah, SMT IV, Nocturne, and Strange Journey seems to be something you might like based on that combination (especially Nocturne).
I don't really think this is the case. I think in the early days of gaming, before we started being able to fully realize artstyles, it didn't really matter what the underlying art looked like as much as how it was presented to the player. Ie, in super deformed, sprite mode everything looks basically the same just colored differently regardless of where the artist(s) hail from. I mean ffs when I saw the art that backed Final Fantasy IV I didn't even know what I was looking at until it was pointed out to me, and I'd beaten FFIV around 5 times at that point.
I have no idea where you're from, but in the Netherlands PCs were (and still are) way more ubiquitous than consoles.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
If you look at it from a design standpoint, Everything in a traditional JRPG is the direct anti-thesis of modern western games.
Multiple playable characters, Turn based combat and grinding lengths. These are all design elements that are fundamentally different and gamers in the west will not go back to these elements.
Multiple playable characters, Turn based combat and grinding lengths. These are all design elements that are fundamentally different and gamers in the west will not go back to these elements.
1st Course
Member
Like I said before, JRPGs are not really any less popular in the west than they ever were, it's just that western games are more popular than ever.
The most popular console JRPG of all time FFVII sold only a little bit more than 5m in the west. FFVIII sold over 4m, FFX sold a little over 3m and FFIX sold a little over 2m.
This gen FFXIII probably sold over 3m, Dark Souls sold over 2m in the west. Technically speaking Dark Souls is just as popular as FFX was in the west, it's just that most people don't feel that DS is a big success because games like GTA and Cod sell over 20m+ in the west alone.
The most popular console JRPG of all time FFVII sold only a little bit more than 5m in the west. FFVIII sold over 4m, FFX sold a little over 3m and FFIX sold a little over 2m.
This gen FFXIII probably sold over 3m, Dark Souls sold over 2m in the west. Technically speaking Dark Souls is just as popular as FFX was in the west, it's just that most people don't feel that DS is a big success because games like GTA and Cod sell over 20m+ in the west alone.
I find the response on this topic usually depends on the experience and the age of the player. Speaking as someone who has played a vast majority of RPGs, I'd say there is no modern "traditional" JRPG.
Just to counter some points I see in this thread:
1) Pointless necessary grinding itself is pretty rare in recent JRPGs with the notable exception of Dragon Quest and anything based off Wizardry (which is a Western franchise that took off in Japan.). Etrian is closer to Wizardry than a JRPG, and frankly I don't find near-plotless dungeon hacks (opinionated - I dislike Etrian, would rather play something more truly nonlinear and fun like World of Xeen) to be a proper representation of what "JRPG"s are.
2) The only constant in the Final Fantasy series is that it isn't constant. There is not one title from FF1-14 that has re-used identical battle mechanics without significant changes or innovation.
3) If you haven't played The Last Remnant (or any other SaGa game minus the GameBoy ones), much of the Falcom canon (like Brandish! or Xanadu/Faxanadu or even a Ys), any of Gust's Atelier series, very few of them adhere to what people describe as the JRPG formula. The main modern culprits that still do are usually the tales series and star ocean (which are more characterised by having a vile nonsensical plot written for 8 year old children - the exception being Tales of Abyss). JRPGs innovate a lot, they just aren't always rewarded for doing so. Breath of Fire innovated and produced Dragon Quarter, which was as un-traditional as you could get and that killed the entire franchise, for example.
I find it's much easier to define the Western RPG. If the music is consistently insipid and "ambient" (I blame Jeremy Soule), the world is generally grimdark, your character looks like a wardrobe disaster because you're wearing gear for the stats, party member ages are consistently over 20, the ending is annoyingly closure-free (to accommodate DLC) and doing the main quest is frequently less interesting than all the sideshows, it's probably a western RPG.
Just to counter some points I see in this thread:
1) Pointless necessary grinding itself is pretty rare in recent JRPGs with the notable exception of Dragon Quest and anything based off Wizardry (which is a Western franchise that took off in Japan.). Etrian is closer to Wizardry than a JRPG, and frankly I don't find near-plotless dungeon hacks (opinionated - I dislike Etrian, would rather play something more truly nonlinear and fun like World of Xeen) to be a proper representation of what "JRPG"s are.
2) The only constant in the Final Fantasy series is that it isn't constant. There is not one title from FF1-14 that has re-used identical battle mechanics without significant changes or innovation.
3) If you haven't played The Last Remnant (or any other SaGa game minus the GameBoy ones), much of the Falcom canon (like Brandish! or Xanadu/Faxanadu or even a Ys), any of Gust's Atelier series, very few of them adhere to what people describe as the JRPG formula. The main modern culprits that still do are usually the tales series and star ocean (which are more characterised by having a vile nonsensical plot written for 8 year old children - the exception being Tales of Abyss). JRPGs innovate a lot, they just aren't always rewarded for doing so. Breath of Fire innovated and produced Dragon Quarter, which was as un-traditional as you could get and that killed the entire franchise, for example.
I find it's much easier to define the Western RPG. If the music is consistently insipid and "ambient" (I blame Jeremy Soule), the world is generally grimdark, your character looks like a wardrobe disaster because you're wearing gear for the stats, party member ages are consistently over 20, the ending is annoyingly closure-free (to accommodate DLC) and doing the main quest is frequently less interesting than all the sideshows, it's probably a western RPG.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Awwww, c'mon; don't just write off a mechanic like that.
It was more about opinions and following thru. It would be like me saying I'd want more (and this is the SMT4 talking here) that more modern military shooters implement more demonic, supernatural, postapocalyptic narratives instead of ripped-from-the-headlines. If they even deemed fit to do so, would I follow thru with sales? Would it counteract the lost sales from any big fans of those series bailing?
Secondly, it also pointed out that raising your voice with an odd, dissenting opinion (either in a focus group or here on the internets) is very, very tough, lending credence to my earlier assertation that JRPGs have been burdened by a millstone of Double Standard this generation and it affords fans of the genre little in the way of social feedback and support.
America, and yall also had a much lower ammount of pure video game consoles over there, which were largely RPG-lite, too. It's mostly about IBM-compatable and the modern PC set-up rather than the hybrids that dominated prosperously in Europe for so long.
Another great point (I think XIII did 5m+). The mitosis of the industry makes them look minute in comparison to the juggernauts who well, won the generation. Thing is, they thinking goes that everyone else lost.
Considering the state of writing in most wrpgs this doesn't matter
vagabondarts
Member
Until the creepy anime loli and lame story lines are resolved there is zero chance.
Also there are so many games that offer comparable depth now that I don't see how it's possible right now.
I love them and I don't even play them much anymore
Also there are so many games that offer comparable depth now that I don't see how it's possible right now.
I love them and I don't even play them much anymore
This is an excellent point. The problem isn't that JRPGs are less popular now, it's that they're less successful. The first Etrian Odyssey was made by six people on a shoe-string budget and sold maybe 200,000 copies worldwide. It's sparked three sequels and a remake, and is going to get more of both going forward, and has a rabid and dedicated fanbase. Compare Final Fantasy XIII: made by a team of hundreds over the course of years, sold millions worldwide but was critically panned and is considered a disaster by fans. It could have been a franchise killer to any company not sitting on billions in cash.
Or compare Lost Odyssey, made by a much smaller team and a critical success, but played by few and no follow-up in sight.
I'd like to think that these and other examples suggest AAA development and sales expectations are the problem. Does anyone have numbers for how the Tales games do, and information about how Namco feels about sales?
That's his point--most coffee fans are not fan of dark coffee, but when focus tested they say they are because it's the "correct" answer.
Nope. Fuck battle transitions. I don't see what use they are anymore.
I could understand them being there back in the days when the hardware couldn't render the battles going on in the exploration space, but those days are past. Every modern piece of gaming hardware on the market right now can handle that shit.
From here on out the separation between battles and the rest of the gameplay should be as nonexistent as possible.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
An attorney in my office overheard me mention that I'd spent $50 on a game (SMT IV) so he asked which game. I'm not even sure how to pronounce "Shin Megami Tensai" and was overcome with a wave of embarrassment with the thought of explaining it to him ("Uhh... it's Pokemon with demons instead and set in Japan") so I lied and said Call of Duty.
That stigma is part of the problem, at least personally.
That stigma is part of the problem, at least personally.
I looks to me like it's pronounced "Shin mega me ten say."
Only the "a" in mega is more "ah".
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Personally I'd be much more into them if they were around 15 hours long instead of the 50 that they still seem to aim for. There's a lot of filler that JRPGs make players go through which are always extremely boring and just sour the memory of the entire experience. Just getting rid of that damned filler to reach some outdated hour count would go a really long way, and it'd just be icing on the cake if that allows them to better playtest and tweak the overall gameplay arc to make better difficulty curves and cut out sections that create fatigue.
Even if there is absolutely no sections that can be deemed as filler its still really rough to expect any JRPG fighting system to remain interesting after 50 hours. It's very hard to find a gameplay system that's still fun and doesn't get old after even 20 hours unless it's a multiplayer game.
I don't know if that's the core problem for everyone, but it's definitely the core problem for me.
Even if there is absolutely no sections that can be deemed as filler its still really rough to expect any JRPG fighting system to remain interesting after 50 hours. It's very hard to find a gameplay system that's still fun and doesn't get old after even 20 hours unless it's a multiplayer game.
I don't know if that's the core problem for everyone, but it's definitely the core problem for me.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Can't jive with this, won't jive with this. I don't like writing mechanics off in everything, even when the mechanical restriction that spawned them was overcame.
"Shin Megami Tensei 4, you know, a MATURE GAME." *sentai action pose with sweet audible sharpness and flashing speed lines*
Seriously, though, I do watch whom I speak of to this. A few have learned of Zombie Cop, Archangel, and Hathor, and their adventures with our stalwart Samurai hero Buna, though.
Shee-n May-ga-me Ten-say
While I don't doubt silly social expectations can be problematic, it sounds like a personal issue of shame for liking the things you do.
"Shin" like the bodypart, "Mega" like Megaman, "-mi" like the Wii creature, "Ten" like the number and "-sei" like say.
Shin Megami Tensei.
That said, I tell anyone who asks that I play these obscure games. I mention it's about mankind dueling gods and demons for control of the future of mankind and as their eyes glaze over I talk about mythological and pop-culture references and inspirations.
Somehow everyone I know thinks I'm a nerd and comes to me for recommendations.
Why not just say "SMT 4"?
"It's a game about all hell breaking loose after the apocalypse. Literally."
Y'all need to take a few classes in stealth geeking.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I've been trying to get friends into these for a DECADE saying it's Fallout with demons. I should shift tactics, then.
GoofsterStud
Member
Ni no Kuni did surprisingly well in the US with all the delays and barely any marketing.
It's sold a decent amount more than in did in Japan.
It was also the top selling game the week of release in the UK.
It's ashame that the DS version was so horrible and made people think the PS3 version was more of the same.
It's sold a decent amount more than in did in Japan.
It was also the top selling game the week of release in the UK.
It's ashame that the DS version was so horrible and made people think the PS3 version was more of the same.
Nightengale
Member
No numbers ( average sales trend at about 500k to 700k), but performance of Tales have always been 'consistent' and 'good.' It's a game built entirely for their own domestic audience, they have very low expectations, if at all towards the western market when it comes to Tales games.
Another thing about Tales games is the dissonance between how they're doing, from a games perspective and a franchise perspective.
The 'games' themselves have always been bought primarily by the male gaming audience in Japan, but there's an extremely sizable 'female' Tales fanbase in Japan that goes to events, buy merchandise like drama CDs, etc. There's rumours that the female fanbase contribute just as much $$$ to the franchise as the game sales.
So yeah, even though Tales only sell around 500-700k in Japan, they're a solid franchise all in all because they've branched out from just their gamer core.
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