He went back on that. IIRC At the end of NorCal Validated he had an interview with Phil where he said he mostly just played Fox for a little bit because he let his frustration towards the Fox matchup consume him and he basically went "Fuck it, I'll just play Fox myself," but then he realized that his heart wasn't really in the character. He still plays him in doubles though.
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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
He went back on that. IIRC At the end of NorCal Validated he had an interview with Phil where he said he mostly just played Fox for a little bit because he let his frustration towards the Fox matchup consume him and he basically went "Fuck it, I'll just play Fox myself," but then he realized that his heart wasn't really in the character. He still plays him in doubles though.
Take a set off each of the 5 gods.
Leffen did it, and now he's a god. He's the only one to do so so far.
This is more or less in line with my thinking, though I think that there's slightly more separation between HBox and Armada.
Plup is close!
Or perhaps far. How close has he come to beating Armada, anyway?
fredrancour
Member
I don't think he's in the almost-beat-armada club yet. I feel like he got destroyed by that sweet sweet well-honed anti-sheik game from a lifetime of fighting android the only time I saw the two fight.
Who even is in the almost-beat-armada club?
Silentwolf got a game 1 win at an evo (too long ago to be relevant tho), and smashgod also got a game 1 win in a bo3
Then I've seen Axe, s2j, and ice get him to game 5s.
I feel like there's at least one older example from before I became a smash addict that i've heard about, but I can't remember what it was.
LucidMomentum
Member
If it hasn't been in the past few years I don't think it matters tbh.
Everyone's moving at such a quick pace these days, tech skill wise.
IMO, if you can take a set off the top 4-5 players at a major in a year or so, you can be considered one of the greats. Do it at the same tournament and there you go.
fredrancour
Member
yeah the lifetime records are fun trivia but I guess it is more relevant to keep track of who's beaten who on a rolling year or two basis.
Bakkus
Member
Colbol at Paragon Orlando.
I'm not sure I agree that Armada is in a league of his own. There was a point in time where Armada was outclassing everyone, but I think we're past that.
I feel like he's being threatened from more people today than he was a year or two ago. Leffen's Fox isn't going to lose dittos forever. Hungrybox takes him to the brink routinely. Mang0 ended with a positive record last year. M2K's Marth is a threat now. PPMD is gonna come back and show everyone how it's done with the bird
. Even demigods like Ice and S2J are pushing him.
Armada is still the best player in the world, I just think the distance is closing, not expanding.
I feel like he's being threatened from more people today than he was a year or two ago. Leffen's Fox isn't going to lose dittos forever. Hungrybox takes him to the brink routinely. Mang0 ended with a positive record last year. M2K's Marth is a threat now. PPMD is gonna come back and show everyone how it's done with the bird
Armada is still the best player in the world, I just think the distance is closing, not expanding.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Downloaded the netplay build, need to get myself to actually play it.
But getting 4 stocked and SDing all over the place is going to hurt.
But getting 4 stocked and SDing all over the place is going to hurt.
LucidMomentum
Member
Eh, SmashLadder makes it so you play people of a similar rank if you do For Glory, so it's not that bad. I don't think I've ever been 4 stocked on the ladder.
What is the roughest part is getting asked to play with people who have like 100 ping and act like it doesn't affect their play lol.
I had a Samus from Colorado challenge me in Cali and the ping plus his camping style of play made it awful.
I beat him and then made a note never to play him again.
It can be rather useful to work on muscle memory and matchup / setplay experience, if you keep the ping below like 50. Otherwise it just starts to throw off your timings.
Finally got a camera and I'm learning OBS as our venue is working on a Podcast / Stream area. Commissioning stream layouts from a friend and they look dooooope. We haven't been able to stream in about a year so this will be great if it all lines up.
Also next weekend in SoCal there's like four tournaments Friday-Sunday and my work switched my Fridays off so I have next Friday off. It'll be a hell of a drive Friday but the chance to play in that many tournaments is hype.
LucidMomentum
Member
Anyone in here go to Cal State Fullerton?
There's a Melee and Project M tournament Friday and registration ends tonight!
If you're going, I'll be there so look around for Big Al and say hi!
https://smash.gg/tournament/outplayed-2017/
There's a Melee and Project M tournament Friday and registration ends tonight!
If you're going, I'll be there so look around for Big Al and say hi!
https://smash.gg/tournament/outplayed-2017/
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'll care about the boxes when someone makes one with an analog joystick.
Sorry if this is a dumb question but do we have a thread similar to this one for Smash 4? The only other Smash 4 thread I know about is the general/speculation one and I legit can not believe nobody's talking about Civil War. Best Smash 4 tournament to date with non-top 10 players outplacing the usual top players to make for a top 8 that had DK, Link, Falcon, and Ryu. In the biggest and most stacked Smash 4 tournament ever.
Am I just a dummy who doesn't know where the thread is or what
Am I just a dummy who doesn't know where the thread is or what
The GAF Smash 4 community was on Discord last time I kept up with it. I'd probably ask around in the community thread for the game and see if you can get an invite if it's still going.
LucidMomentum
Member
TBH, as someone who is friends with a guy who has a SmashBox for data gathering / tournament testing via having players use it and give their thoughts, the only difference between the SmashBox and the B0XX is the layout of the buttons.
Which is odd that it's turning into a quasi patent / legal thing because I've never ever heard of anyone patenting a button layout.
Honestly there was a custom one a friend of mine saw at Genesis this year that was half Gamecube with an analog stick and the other half was a hitbox with all the buttons.
Which I thought was clever but not ideal. I would think a joystick would be more comfortable than having weight imbalances and such between each side of the frankenbox.
But in reality anyone can make them. It's just no one's cared to until now for some odd reason.
I honestly don't see why people think to ban it. There's the argument that having digital inputs for the analog sticks and its impact on DI, but the tradeoff is a lot of other things that seem simpler on a controller feel complicated on the arcade stick.
Basically it's like you becoming an analog computer that in theory could have TAS level execution because all of your inputs are mapped digitally and laid out for you, but you're still a human and the conversion of controller inputs and timings to arcade stick inputs and timings is different enough to make that a challenge in and of itself.
As long as each input on the box is directly correlated to a single output in game, I don't see any real arguments against it.
A Marvel player got in trouble for having Up + Left and Up + Right on his stick mapped to single buttons at a tournament, for example.
However, I feel Hitbox felt that they hadn't seen an arcade stick for Melee made yet and thought, why not make one? Then Hax$ said the layout should be different, Hitbox doesn't want to give him money or revise their product so close to launch, Hax$ makes his own variant, and the pissing match starts.
It's like if someone got mad at Hori for making an arcade stick with a different layout than Qanba did. At the end of the day they serve the exact same purpose.
I'm not sure if boxes should be banned, but it seems like a lot of early opposition, though the big TO's haven't come out and made their own decisions yet.
I gotta feel bad for Hitbox here. Not because Hax stole anything, but because I don't think they really understood the community or Hax's place in it. If you're going after Hax, you better have something really incriminating or have Mang0 or Armada in your pocket. That's how much people love Hax. And not just for the 20XX meme, but he also made significant contributions to the metagame. He pursues perfection and, if nothing else, the community appreciates that. He's a Smash icon, a theorist, a top player, a personality. He commands a lot of respect, a lot of Melee top player do, and it's in a way that you don't really see in the FGC. I don't think Hitbox would have put out that article and video if they knew that Hax controls a non-insignificant part of their target audience, especially since Gravy doesn't have near that credibility. Their last video continually refers to Hax as a kid, but the audience for that video thinks he's a legend.
I don't think Hax did much wrong besides being a double agent for a bit, I don't think Hitbox was in the wrong to deny his ideas either though. I think the winning move would have been for Hitbox to ignore the drama and just try to put out a superior product. The strategy had paid off up until they put out that article and made it worse with a video. Instead, they tried to discredit Hax and lost $3000 off their Kickstarter.
I gotta feel bad for Hitbox here. Not because Hax stole anything, but because I don't think they really understood the community or Hax's place in it. If you're going after Hax, you better have something really incriminating or have Mang0 or Armada in your pocket. That's how much people love Hax. And not just for the 20XX meme, but he also made significant contributions to the metagame. He pursues perfection and, if nothing else, the community appreciates that. He's a Smash icon, a theorist, a top player, a personality. He commands a lot of respect, a lot of Melee top player do, and it's in a way that you don't really see in the FGC. I don't think Hitbox would have put out that article and video if they knew that Hax controls a non-insignificant part of their target audience, especially since Gravy doesn't have near that credibility. Their last video continually refers to Hax as a kid, but the audience for that video thinks he's a legend.
I don't think Hax did much wrong besides being a double agent for a bit, I don't think Hitbox was in the wrong to deny his ideas either though. I think the winning move would have been for Hitbox to ignore the drama and just try to put out a superior product. The strategy had paid off up until they put out that article and made it worse with a video. Instead, they tried to discredit Hax and lost $3000 off their Kickstarter.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'd want a full size joystick and not a controller stick, otherwise it defeats the purpose. I could probably learn to build one myself but meh. More effort than it's worth.
And that feel when you absolutely nail a combo all the way across the stage and platforms and convert the stock. So satisfying hitting all the followups perfectly. Usually when I feel like I've got something good going I end up missing an L cancel or screw up an input and drop it.
The Hitbox situation is pretty strange and a little unfortunate. Fun to follow though!
I like that Hax is making a competing product, and that there weren't any patents to get in the way of that. If both products exist, that's more choice and it's better for everyone. Stolen or not, the designs of either of these things building off each other is a good thing. It strikes me as alarming that a couple engineers Hax found are able to do rapid prototypes and make such nice looking products so quickly, while an established company like Hitbox apparently has a bunch of red tape to go through.
I don't see Hax's position in all this as entirely positive either though. Based on the chat log between him and Dustin, a couple things stick out. It sounds like Hax was really pushy about getting a cut of profits and a lot of spotlight. It also sounds like Hax was perfectly content at first for Hitbox to release one model then follow up later, might have even been his idea (contrary to how against it he was in his video). Scummiest bit though is the part he made no attempt to deny, the bit about noticing something potentially bannable about Smashbox, choosing not to disclose it, and planning to reveal it later in attempt to sabotage.
The worst part of all this though, is seeing the numbers on the Smashbox Kickstarter go down. It was at ~44k when I checked while watching Hax's video, and in the following couple of days, it's fallen down to ~41.5k. Might still be poised to hit the 50k goal in a couple days (there's usually a big bump at the end), but the wind definitely got kicked out of it. Whichever product is better, most beneficial in my eyes is for both to exist. I think Hitbox made a mistake in bringing the fight up in that DblTap article, would have been better to keep the controversy quiet (though of course who knows when B0xx might have brought it back up anyway). Dustin's recent response wasn't much better, filled with moments where he insults Hax for being 'that kid who blew up his wrist' when that's part of the target audience for their product.
My feeling on legality is that they'll probably end up legal, eventually.
Edit: Oh, Gravy did a much better job responding here. Regarding legality, he says the Hitbox plans to support the Nunchuk, so that you have the option to use it as something closer to a normal controller with arcade style buttons.
I like that Hax is making a competing product, and that there weren't any patents to get in the way of that. If both products exist, that's more choice and it's better for everyone. Stolen or not, the designs of either of these things building off each other is a good thing. It strikes me as alarming that a couple engineers Hax found are able to do rapid prototypes and make such nice looking products so quickly, while an established company like Hitbox apparently has a bunch of red tape to go through.
I don't see Hax's position in all this as entirely positive either though. Based on the chat log between him and Dustin, a couple things stick out. It sounds like Hax was really pushy about getting a cut of profits and a lot of spotlight. It also sounds like Hax was perfectly content at first for Hitbox to release one model then follow up later, might have even been his idea (contrary to how against it he was in his video). Scummiest bit though is the part he made no attempt to deny, the bit about noticing something potentially bannable about Smashbox, choosing not to disclose it, and planning to reveal it later in attempt to sabotage.
The worst part of all this though, is seeing the numbers on the Smashbox Kickstarter go down. It was at ~44k when I checked while watching Hax's video, and in the following couple of days, it's fallen down to ~41.5k. Might still be poised to hit the 50k goal in a couple days (there's usually a big bump at the end), but the wind definitely got kicked out of it. Whichever product is better, most beneficial in my eyes is for both to exist. I think Hitbox made a mistake in bringing the fight up in that DblTap article, would have been better to keep the controversy quiet (though of course who knows when B0xx might have brought it back up anyway). Dustin's recent response wasn't much better, filled with moments where he insults Hax for being 'that kid who blew up his wrist' when that's part of the target audience for their product.
My feeling on legality is that they'll probably end up legal, eventually.
Edit: Oh, Gravy did a much better job responding here. Regarding legality, he says the Hitbox plans to support the Nunchuk, so that you have the option to use it as something closer to a normal controller with arcade style buttons.
LucidMomentum
Member
Yo real talk, when Ryu came out in Smash 4 I used my arcade stick for him at a couple tournaments. Worked well but it was just too much work keeping the stick on me at all times cause Smash 4 players skew a little younger and everyone wanted to touch my stick...
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Why is uptilting harder than doubleshining?
I keep jumping or up smash when trying to do it quickly. And either is completely terrible in any situation where uptilt would be even half decent.
I keep jumping or up smash when trying to do it quickly. And either is completely terrible in any situation where uptilt would be even half decent.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
lvl99 Pixel
Member
options are always good, but that would limit amazing options such as upsmash out of shield if you were willing to play at a disadvantage
lvl99 Pixel
Member
trying that now and it doesnt seem to work at all?
alternative control methods are all good if they work for you though, even if you're doing this
As long as we're wishing for things, would be nice to have a toggle that enables tap jump only while in shield/shine? Not that it would ever happen, lol, but it seems like it would be the best of both worlds.
Oh yeah that one's funny
Hmm, thats the method I usually use so I'm sure it works, I probably didn't explain it well. The thing about tap jump off is it would make pivot uptilt easier so I like it(not that id ever have the fingers to do it)
lvl99 Pixel
Member
S2J over sfat was nice to see
Lets see if axe can do the same this weekend
Lets see if axe can do the same this weekend
LucidMomentum
Member
S2J over sfat was nice to see
Lets see if axe can do the same this weekend
Defend SoCal S2J!
Also, speaking of streams my initial tests with the new layout and all are working well!
Once I figure out how much the venue wants to price gouge me for the use of the internet and stream room on tournament days we might finally be able to stream!
Thoughts / Suggestions from the test streams I did?
https://www.twitch.tv/kerncountysmashbros/videos/all
Not sure what you're looking for but for what you showed in the test stream everything looks great. Most common streaming problems come from after adding the game source, that said audio sync/mixing/interlacing seemed to be fine in your previous casts so you seem all set up. That said, since you went into the effort to what it looks like is building a new streaming PC/and you seem to already have transcoding, it's worth mentioning that twitch has a higher bitrate cap then previously so you can really get a good squeeze out of 720p/60fps or more with testing.
LucidMomentum
Member
Sweet, thanks for the feedback! Streaming is kind of new to me so I'm playing it by ear but I want to make a good first impression of course.
Being a TO of a small region is kind of stressful as I want our tournaments to be amazing just like the ones I get to go to in SoCal.
If y'all want to watch I'll be building the stream PC tonight and streaming it via my gaming PC! Will start around 4:30 / 5:00 PM PST
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Is it worth it to try to learn to shine bair/uair without tap jump? I don't know how most people do it but using a button is hard since the aerial needs to come out so quick after the jump to work.
Also, shine->shine->uair is hilarious when it works (which is basically only on noDI but still)
Also, shine->shine->uair is hilarious when it works (which is basically only on noDI but still)
I also wonder about that. I would think tap would be the fastest method.
I have no idea how prevelant tap jump is for most people, but I think I use it more than most. I use all three methods of jump in different contexts, but I feel that my "default" is tap. I've tried playing pm with tap jump off and can barely play the game. It wasn't until then that I realize how often I use it.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
I heard sfat not turning up for boss rush any more this week
seems like something happened with him
My weird tech stuff seems to be consistent finally (netplay on 5 ping is dope)
styling on people with unconventional edge cancels
party hat just celebrating his 20th birthday. (yea he coulda teched that)
seems like something happened with him
My weird tech stuff seems to be consistent finally (netplay on 5 ping is dope)
styling on people with unconventional edge cancels
party hat just celebrating his 20th birthday. (yea he coulda teched that)
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Recovering low with Falcon was not a good idea in the first place. Learned that the hard way when I was playing him.
I love edge cancels though and it is definitely something I am trying to incorporate into my play. I can hit them kind of okay with aerials but I'm mostly bad at acting out of them. Getting decent at it with phantasms including with some shortens, like YS ledge jump -> mid shorten edge cancel.
I love edge cancels though and it is definitely something I am trying to incorporate into my play. I can hit them kind of okay with aerials but I'm mostly bad at acting out of them. Getting decent at it with phantasms including with some shortens, like YS ledge jump -> mid shorten edge cancel.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
haha yea it was a weird recovery, hes a bit rusty since he only recently started playing again, but he was getting punished super hard recovering high too with that kind of thing. You can dash dance around that space and they know you can just edge hog at any split second.
really, anything would have worked since he was at 150% but we had a no chain grab policy going. Its really tough to land every time but it looks so cool to just warp behind someone (yeah backthrow would be a kill setup but we trying things). this better be april fools
was asked by spud to team in australia but tournys give me far too much anxiety these days. that would have been a really weird team.
im not on his level I just think he wanted to do it for fun
really sucks since I prob wont ever get another opportunity to team with player that goodNetplay on low ping is really responsive these days so its pretty legit if you dont live near many people. Look at Syrox as a good example of that.
Merchandise
Member
Anybody going to Royal Flush? Time to !gamble
LucidMomentum
Member
I am starting to regret how much I've spent on this stream setup.
But at the same time, it's dope.
But at the same time, that's like tourney money.
Gonna have to cut back until Bigger Balc / EVO I think.
Here's how it turned out from this weekend though! Internet at the venue isn't done so I just recorded, hence no mic as I couldn't keep it from picking up game audio too much.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0IaSmJuUcm0Gu2uCbDVjc1ZLonYzlx8V
First video has audio echo due to me not setting things up 100% right, then by the 7th / 8th vid there's some audio desync issues due to the LGP.
Getting a BlackMagic Intensity Shuttle to fix that though.
BUT IT FUCKIN WORKS WOO
But at the same time, it's dope.
But at the same time, that's like tourney money.
Gonna have to cut back until Bigger Balc / EVO I think.
Here's how it turned out from this weekend though! Internet at the venue isn't done so I just recorded, hence no mic as I couldn't keep it from picking up game audio too much.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0IaSmJuUcm0Gu2uCbDVjc1ZLonYzlx8V
First video has audio echo due to me not setting things up 100% right, then by the 7th / 8th vid there's some audio desync issues due to the LGP.
Getting a BlackMagic Intensity Shuttle to fix that though.
BUT IT FUCKIN WORKS WOO
The stream looks great. Other than those small tech issues, I'd say it's one of the better looking streams I've seen.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
The end of game 5, SFAT vs Moon.
I've never seen both players choking so hard.
I've never seen both players choking so hard.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
just woke up
axe still in right? is doubles over?
axe still in right? is doubles over?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
No losers matches yet. Singles now.
And that upthrow fair had me laughing so hard.
Can M2K 4 stock Axe with Sheik? Probably not, but...
0 stocks, lol.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Hbox not doing all that well hurt, but didn't ruin them. And Duck did fine given he had a hard counter on the opposing team.
Druggedfox and Moon losing all 8 of their stocks to SFAT and the overall decision making by east coast is what messed the whole thing up. They should have sent Duck against SFAT since he's good against Fox, he would have either beaten him (and then lose to S2J but still have had a strong contribution) or left him with one stock where sending Moon may have actually made sense. Instead they sent Moon first, who just lost to SFAT earlier. Then DruggedFox happened.
Druggedfox and Moon losing all 8 of their stocks to SFAT and the overall decision making by east coast is what messed the whole thing up. They should have sent Duck against SFAT since he's good against Fox, he would have either beaten him (and then lose to S2J but still have had a strong contribution) or left him with one stock where sending Moon may have actually made sense. Instead they sent Moon first, who just lost to SFAT earlier. Then DruggedFox happened.