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Baten Kaitos 1 & 2 appreciation thread
- Thread starter darkwings
- Start date
silverbullet1080
Banned
I haven't played these games either only because I fucking hate card based games.
Bel Marduk
Banned
silverbullet1080 said:
The BK series is NOTHING like the card based games you're thinking of.
I avoided the series once too because of the cards but after I played it I loved it. The games are cheap, try them.
What's so amazing about this series is that the first one was such an amazing game and yet the Origins outdid it convincingly. That's the sign of a great series.
Furthermore Origins talked about terrorism in such a way that I never saw in a video game.
Nintendo better bring Xenoblade to the US.
Edit: You know what is the biggest shame? BKO could have released on Wii but it was released a few months before when the GCN was dead. Iamagine if Wii had a RPG of BKO's calibur at launch.
Furthermore the original BK was released during the ridiculously crowded holiday season that included Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2, and GTA:San Andreas.
Both games would have benefitted tremendously from better release dates. I feel TOS's success was from its well placed release date.
Furthermore Origins talked about terrorism in such a way that I never saw in a video game.
Nintendo better bring Xenoblade to the US.
Edit: You know what is the biggest shame? BKO could have released on Wii but it was released a few months before when the GCN was dead. Iamagine if Wii had a RPG of BKO's calibur at launch.
Furthermore the original BK was released during the ridiculously crowded holiday season that included Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2, and GTA:San Andreas.
Both games would have benefitted tremendously from better release dates. I feel TOS's success was from its well placed release date.
john tv said:I want Baten Kaitos 3 baaaaaad.I don't think Origins sold all that well, though...
The story was fantastic; the last couple of hours of the game still give me chills. Especially the bit where. So badass.Geldoblame returns to take charge
Agreed, every villain in the game was amazing.
WE DEMAND BK3 NOW!
silverbullet1080 said:
Placing the game in the "card" genre does not completely describe the gameplay found in BK. At least, when people say "card" as the reason they don't want to play I hear "tedious" or "mundane." It's really not.
Especially in the second one, think of the cards as skills that you pick up and then arrange in a deck as one possible skill set during battle. Depending on what sequence you use the cards in you can do more damage or initiate a combo. It's fast and FUN.
abstract alien
Member
Dark Octave
Banned
I have to admit that is the reason I steered clear as well.silverbullet1080 said:
Kind of regret it. Sure wish demos were easily available back then as they are now.
A Black Falcon
Member
Dark Octave said:
At the time it came out I wasn't sure what I thought of card-style games, I'd never been interested in Magic the Gathering that much (or Pokemon cards, Yugioh, whatever), so that was one reason that I held off for a while... (Though I actually do like several GC card-battle RPGs -- Phantasy Star Online Ep. III and Lost Kingdoms were both fun...)
Anyway, I did get BK later on hoping that it'd be good, but didn't like it. The game has what are probably some of the most unlikeable main characters of any RPG ever and some of the worst voice acting ever sure doesn't help any, that's for sure... I got the first one hoping that it'd be good, even though I usually don't have a strong interest in card-battle RPGs, but yeah, I didn't like it at all. The graphics are nice and it has some original ideas, but I just hated the characters so much, and the battles weren't very fun either... I was pretty glad that Tales of Symphonia was the one I got for full price and BK the one I got cheap, because I didn't like it very much. Like I often do with JRPGs I got bored with the gameplay (I'm not a huge fan of the genre, but there are some that I have liked), and there was nothing there, like interesting characters, or even just characters that weren't annoying idiots doing stupid things, to make me want to keep playing.
As for the battle system, it was a little interesting, but the whole "lining up numbers on the cards" thing was way too confusing for its own good, I thought. Evidently the second game gets rid of that. Good riddance. Also, stuff like how all your items go onto cards, items can spoil, etc, were interesting features, I guess. Added some frustration at times though I think. I don't remember, I haven't tried playing the game in a long time... I just lost interest partway through, stopped playing, and never had much interest in going back to it.
Overall despite how much I disliked it, trying to look at it impartially I could see giving BK a decent score because of the interesting elements of the game, but it certainly has some big problems, particularly in the plot and character departments, and I just didn't find it fun to play.
I don't know if I want to try it again, I lost most of my GC savefiles last year so I'd have to start over... that does not sound fun.
Anyway, my dislike/lack of interest in the first game did not exactly make me want to get BKO, so I never did. I'd guess that beyond the game's other problems, like coming out near the end of the GC's life, the fact that while the first game had sold decently a lot of people had had real problems with it also hurt its sales, I'm sure. Why buy a sequel to a game you didn't like all that much? Even so, given how much praise BKO gets I might get it sometime, but I just don't want to spend like $30 for it... if it was cheap I'd consider it, though. From what I've heard it does improve on some of the things I disliked most about the first one, so I'd probably like it more than I did the first game, at least.
All of the major flaws in the first game become, in my opinion, Origins' strengths. Combat's tighter and faster, voice acting is fantastic, characters are memorable, and the story and pacing's solid. It really fleshes out the BK universe quite nicely.
One thing about the card combat in BK:O is that it doesn't feel like a card game at all. Honestly, it would have been better if they never even called them 'cards' and used some other term for it, because it isn't like you are throwing a demon card on the ground and a demon pops up and hits an enemy.
The best way to describe it is that it is a sequential combo system. You pick out the skills you want to bring into battle and you pick from 3-7 skills at a time(depending on your level). You have a limited amount of time to pick what you want to do with your turn, so you have to think really fast at what you are doing.
Each skill has a number attached to it, and when you string together skills in an ascending order, you get to pick more and more attacks for your turn(up to 7, and you can skip numbers inbetween). You have a default weapon and armor, but you also buy and find new weapons and armor throughout the game. Use of new weapons or armor is treated as a skill, and those cards have the number 0 attached to it. Weak attacks have the number 1 attached, medium have 2 and so on.
Your special attacks start with the number 4 and go up to 7, and if you end your turn using a special attack, the next person in your team can link to your attacks and form a longer combo (As long as they have a Weak Attack Skill available).
So a battle would go like this:
A. Look at your skills.
B. Sagi picks (in order)
0. Fire Blade
1. Weak Attack
2. Meduim Attack
3. Strong Attack
4. Ascension (Special Attack)
C. It's Milly's turn, but can still link to Sagi's combo if she has a Weak Attack card.
1. Weak Attack
4. Maracas of death
It probably sounds confusing when written out like that, but all of this happens over the course of a couple seconds, so battles are exciting and very fast paced. The combo system is very rewarding, and picking the right skills to take into battle (you wouldn't take a Fire Blade into a volcano, for example) becomes an art.
I hope that this explains the battle system for some, and hopefully removes some of the "Card RPG" stigma related to the game, although I probably just confused a lot of people.
The best way to describe it is that it is a sequential combo system. You pick out the skills you want to bring into battle and you pick from 3-7 skills at a time(depending on your level). You have a limited amount of time to pick what you want to do with your turn, so you have to think really fast at what you are doing.
Each skill has a number attached to it, and when you string together skills in an ascending order, you get to pick more and more attacks for your turn(up to 7, and you can skip numbers inbetween). You have a default weapon and armor, but you also buy and find new weapons and armor throughout the game. Use of new weapons or armor is treated as a skill, and those cards have the number 0 attached to it. Weak attacks have the number 1 attached, medium have 2 and so on.
Your special attacks start with the number 4 and go up to 7, and if you end your turn using a special attack, the next person in your team can link to your attacks and form a longer combo (As long as they have a Weak Attack Skill available).
So a battle would go like this:
A. Look at your skills.
B. Sagi picks (in order)
0. Fire Blade
1. Weak Attack
2. Meduim Attack
3. Strong Attack
4. Ascension (Special Attack)
C. It's Milly's turn, but can still link to Sagi's combo if she has a Weak Attack card.
1. Weak Attack
4. Maracas of death
It probably sounds confusing when written out like that, but all of this happens over the course of a couple seconds, so battles are exciting and very fast paced. The combo system is very rewarding, and picking the right skills to take into battle (you wouldn't take a Fire Blade into a volcano, for example) becomes an art.
I hope that this explains the battle system for some, and hopefully removes some of the "Card RPG" stigma related to the game, although I probably just confused a lot of people.
Phoenix's Rage
Neo Member
I gave BK a honest shot because of word of mouth here on GAF, but I stopped playing a dungeon or two before the final boss. I just didn't find it very fun at all. Story - meh. Characters - meh except for Mizuti. Battle system - slow and meh. Everything else (dungeons, towns, graphics etc.) were fine. I went and youtubed the ending.
I put in 20 minutes into BK:0 and came away with an infinitely better first impression, but life got busy and I dropped it a few months back. How much better is BK:O over BK? Worth going back?
I put in 20 minutes into BK:0 and came away with an infinitely better first impression, but life got busy and I dropped it a few months back. How much better is BK:O over BK? Worth going back?
milkyjay20
Member
if you like chrono cross or xenogears, you should play baten kaitos. the guys responsible for the background art and story of those games are also behind bk.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I loved BK, and I was one of those people who hated card based battles. The shuffling and never knowing what you were going to get next was fun as hell.
The music and art was amazing. I LOVED LOVED LOVED that candyland like town.
Never played the sequel. How does iit compare?
The music and art was amazing. I LOVED LOVED LOVED that candyland like town.
Never played the sequel. How does iit compare?
Jason's Ultimatum said:
From what I've played of the original, the sequel (prequel?) is better in every way. I thought that fewer playable characters would suck, but the characters you get are so awesome it doesn't matter. Both games require time to appreciate them, and a big part of it is figuring out the battle system. Once it clicked with me, I was inadvertanly grinding just because I wanted to see how high of a combo I could rack up.
charlequin
Banned
Jason's Ultimatum said:
All the things that were good in BK (fun combat system, beautiful pre-rendered backgrounds, lots of sidequests, the fun of collecting cards, one of Sakuraba's few excellent soundtracks) are back and equally great.
All the many, many things that were bad in BK are drastically improved. Instead of terrible, C-list voice acting, it has an amazing cast with excellent delivery (all as part of, quite literally, one of the best video game localizations ever.) Instead of an annoying cast, there's a a lean group of three excellent characters. The game feels much less lethargic because you can dash around now; the quest magnus system is dramatically improved; there's far less missable or time-sensitive content (and your "Gathering" list of magnus carries over to a NG+, unlike the original game) The storyline is relatively interesting; the battles are fast and almost all your battle cards are useful (unlike the first game where there were seemingly thousands of random items that were basically only useful to make dubious "combos" in combat with.)
BK is like a 7.5 for me, a game I enjoyed enough to beat but not something I often consider replaying or in which I place a great deal of retrospective fondness; BKO is one of my top 5 RPGs of last generation.
A Black Falcon said:At the time it came out I wasn't sure what I thought of card-style games, I'd never been interested in Magic the Gathering that much (or Pokemon cards, Yugioh, whatever), so that was one reason that I held off for a while... (Though I actually do like several GC card-battle RPGs -- Phantasy Star Online Ep. III and Lost Kingdoms were both fun...)
Anyway, I did get BK later on hoping that it'd be good, but didn't like it. The game has what are probably some of the most unlikeable main characters of any RPG ever and some of the worst voice acting ever sure doesn't help any, that's for sure... I got the first one hoping that it'd be good, even though I usually don't have a strong interest in card-battle RPGs, but yeah, I didn't like it at all. The graphics are nice and it has some original ideas, but I just hated the characters so much, and the battles weren't very fun either... I was pretty glad that Tales of Symphonia was the one I got for full price and BK the one I got cheap, because I didn't like it very much. Like I often do with JRPGs I got bored with the gameplay (I'm not a huge fan of the genre, but there are some that I have liked), and there was nothing there, like interesting characters, or even just characters that weren't annoying idiots doing stupid things, to make me want to keep playing.
As for the battle system, it was a little interesting, but the whole "lining up numbers on the cards" thing was way too confusing for its own good, I thought. Evidently the second game gets rid of that. Good riddance. Also, stuff like how all your items go onto cards, items can spoil, etc, were interesting features, I guess. Added some frustration at times though I think. I don't remember, I haven't tried playing the game in a long time... I just lost interest partway through, stopped playing, and never had much interest in going back to it.
Overall despite how much I disliked it, trying to look at it impartially I could see giving BK a decent score because of the interesting elements of the game, but it certainly has some big problems, particularly in the plot and character departments, and I just didn't find it fun to play.
I don't know if I want to try it again, I lost most of my GC savefiles last year so I'd have to start over... that does not sound fun.
Anyway, my dislike/lack of interest in the first game did not exactly make me want to get BKO, so I never did. I'd guess that beyond the game's other problems, like coming out near the end of the GC's life, the fact that while the first game had sold decently a lot of people had had real problems with it also hurt its sales, I'm sure. Why buy a sequel to a game you didn't like all that much? Even so, given how much praise BKO gets I might get it sometime, but I just don't want to spend like $30 for it... if it was cheap I'd consider it, though. From what I've heard it does improve on some of the things I disliked most about the first one, so I'd probably like it more than I did the first game, at least.
You can find it a lot cheaper than $30, at least in the US. Check your local Gamestops. Their website lists it at $10. Ebay has auctions listing it at $15. Also, if anyone wanted
to try the original BK, there's an Ebay auction listing it at a $3.99 buy it now price (+ $4.00 shipping). There are now, no excuses! Buy these games!
I bought BK:O when it came out, so I did my part. Since it came out at the end of the GameCube's lifespan, it was $40 instead of the usual $50.
Would it be a bad idea to play BK:O first? I played maybe 10 hours into the first one, but then I started playing Tales of Symphonia and couldn't get back into it afterward.
Would it be a bad idea to play BK:O first? I played maybe 10 hours into the first one, but then I started playing Tales of Symphonia and couldn't get back into it afterward.
Does BK:O work with the original Freeloader for GameCube?
It was never released in Europe, so I havent played it. Now that I think about it, I have the urge to replay BK1. BK1 really was a strange experience...its first few hours are the worst part, and it can put you off completely. But at some point, it "clicks" and you start to feel the game. There´s a pure awesome twist at one point, and the ending was great.
What I loved specially was that you as a player were talked to as if you were part of the game. Is that kind of immersion existent in BK:O, too?
It was never released in Europe, so I havent played it. Now that I think about it, I have the urge to replay BK1. BK1 really was a strange experience...its first few hours are the worst part, and it can put you off completely. But at some point, it "clicks" and you start to feel the game. There´s a pure awesome twist at one point, and the ending was great.
What I loved specially was that you as a player were talked to as if you were part of the game. Is that kind of immersion existent in BK:O, too?
I'm not ashamed to admit I had way more fun with BKO than with FFXII that year. Sure that game had Basch, but BKO had Milly and Guillo. <3 Milly and Guillo.
It had arguably the better voice acting too, which was quite surprising considering the previous one was shithouse.
Plus, in both games in the series, whenever you manage to get a good string of crazy combos going it's ohmygod so satysfying.
And then there's Chaotic Dance, so good.
Seriously, if we ever manage to get another in the series I will be Reggie's bitch for eternity
It had arguably the better voice acting too, which was quite surprising considering the previous one was shithouse.
Plus, in both games in the series, whenever you manage to get a good string of crazy combos going it's ohmygod so satysfying.
And then there's Chaotic Dance, so good.
Seriously, if we ever manage to get another in the series I will be Reggie's bitch for eternity
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Still need to get around to hunting BKO down now that I've killed off some of my backlog recently. "Now it'll only be 8th instead of 13th in line!"
dragonlife
Member
Man, this thread makes me want to replay the games.
...I think I may after I finish Enchanted Arms.
...I think I may after I finish Enchanted Arms.
Just wanted to chime in with my belated appreciate.
Well, for BK1 anyway. I got very close to the end before setting the game aside, and so I've yet to finish it. I really should get back into it, wrap it up, and finally start up Origins.
One of these days...
Well, for BK1 anyway. I got very close to the end before setting the game aside, and so I've yet to finish it. I really should get back into it, wrap it up, and finally start up Origins.
One of these days...
SabinFigaro
Member
I'll admit, I was initially biased against this 'card-based' RPG series, but I eventually gave BK1 a try after the enormous praise is received. I'm so glad that I did, as it is certainly one of my favourite RPGs of the past generation. While the characters themselves may be cliche (and the VA somewhat lousy), BK1 had a sense of epicness that I felt was lost in many contemporary titles. It also helps that the score is Sakaruba's best, most varied work since Valkyrie Profile. The card mechanics are actually a huge plus, and lend a lot to both battles and the world at large. Not many RPGs stay in my mind long after I've beaten them: BK does.
After a long period of searching, I recently come into possession of Origins about a month ago. I'm looking forward to playing the prequel, which is supposedly even better than the original.
After a long period of searching, I recently come into possession of Origins about a month ago. I'm looking forward to playing the prequel, which is supposedly even better than the original.
I have a feeling I just need someone to explain this to me. I played a couple hours of the first game a few years ago, and (from what I recall) in it you collect cards and use random arrangements of said cards for everything in battle, out of decks you can organize outside of battle. If someone can provide me with a mindset in which this is not a card game, I think I could be persuaded to rebuy the game and try it again!Mejilan said:
botticus said:
I think the key word was "traditional".
I don't have a lot of card-RPG experience, but I know that BK, particularly BKO, deemphasized a lot of the numbers games and large numbers of effects per card that seem to me to be part of card games like that, instead emphasizing combo-building.
botticus said:
The game features a steady JRPG progression of powers, spells, and equipment. It's not like you're playing with fully randomized decks for fully randomized rewards. Cards serve as stand ins for equipment, spells, skills, and attacks, and the system is balanced in such a fashion as to be VERY customizable. New equipment cards are gained as battle rewards, from chests, and primarily from carefully controlled shops, just like in a regular JRPG. It's more of a merger between card battling RPGs and traditional JRPGs. As someone who loves JRPGs but loathes pure card battling RPGs, I found Baten Kaitos' implementation fully palatable and refreshing.
There's a bit of a learning curve, but eventually it just clicks. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's basically a JRPG with an idiosyncratic take on equipment and spells, rather than a story shoe-horned into a card battling RPG.
I just remember severe headaches from continuing to get crappy equipment cards when I would have preferred to be attacking. And then dying. :lol
Luckily it's cheap enough that I could probably give it another try when I have some space in my calendar. A whole $15 for the pair. I wonder if I kept a copy of the soundtrack when I sold mine...
Luckily it's cheap enough that I could probably give it another try when I have some space in my calendar. A whole $15 for the pair. I wonder if I kept a copy of the soundtrack when I sold mine...
botticus said:
Defensive cards in BK1 are usually a waste of space. I always had my characters' decks stacked with weapon and spell cards, and maybe a small handful of defensive cards here and there. Think 80%/20% split between attack+magic/defense, respectively. Perhaps even 90%/10% further into the game. IIRC, there were even some weapon cards that had minor defensive qualities during defensive rounds. I would have more of those than purely defensive gear.
Like I said, the system is very customizable/malleable. When you get it running correctly, it plays like a very cool, but tweaked JRPG. And the aging of cards adds some awesome elements to the gameplay. Restorative foodstuffs cards that change. Flaming swords that after a time extinguish and become crappy dirks, etc.
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