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z0m3le · May 12, 2012

BurntPork said:
Meant to say not over 800MHz for Sony and Microsoft.

Sony: 1152 @ 800MHz = 1843GFLOPs
Microsoft: 1280 @ 750-800MHz = 2048GFLOPs

Sony ends up a bit below, but not that much. Certainly not enough to bottleneck it. Nintendo, however? Unless the final box is much bigger, don't count on such high clocks.

I'm sorry but those chips would run much hotter than a 640sp @ 800mhz, the size of AMD chips with 1280sp in their current GPU is 212mm^2 (the HD 7870) it has a TDP of 160 watts @ 1ghz.

The size of AMD's 640sp in the HD 7770 GPU is 123mm^2 it has a TDP of 80 watts @ 1ghz.

Basically it has about HALF the TDP for half the sp. Your chart would look like this if taken my points into consideration.

Sony: 1152 @ 800mhz ~110w TDP = 1843GFLOPs [88]
Microsoft: 1280 @ 800mhz ~122w TDP = 2048GFLOPs [98]
Nintendo: 640 @ 800mhz ~61w TDP = 1024GFLOPs [48]

Considering none of the console makers will use the heavy GCN architecture, we can probably shave off 20% of the heat, leaving you with the bracketed numbers above, now if these were embedded parts (as they likely will be) they could shave off even more heat, but it's easier to do this sort of calculation with a chip in mind, which is why I used the e6760 as a starting point.

Your belief that the Wii U couldn't handle a chip that hot (~50watts) is just wrong, having half the shaders basically means half the size and thus half the heat, and as many people in these threads have said in the past, the size of the console won't limit the TDP as much as people might think, it's all about air flow.

wsippel · May 12, 2012

tkscz said:
Yeah that bothers me about it too, considering I have Gmod and there are a TON of suited Samus models.

On the other hand, Samus is the only usually armored character on those screens who's still recognizable even without her armor, as the Zero Suit is also quite iconic and unique. And trading armor and firepower for speed, she still kicks major butt without her suit. Makes for a slightly more diverse and colorful cast, would just be a selection of tin cans otherwise.

Skiesofwonder · May 12, 2012

Good morning everyone! Just dropping in to say I'm going with my girlfriend to the Legend of Zelda Symphony in Atlanta tonight! I'm extremely excited, I thought this day would never get here. I plan on making the trip an all day event, but I'll try and drop in once and a while to see if anything Is new. Have fun speculating!

Edit: if anyone from here is going, bring your 3DS. I'll have my personal message set as "neogaf - skies".

BGBW · May 12, 2012

wsippel said:
On the other hand, Samus is the only usually armored character on those screens who's still recognizable even without her armor, as the Zero Suit is also quite iconic and unique. And trading armor and firepower for speed, she still kicks major butt without her suit. Makes for a slightly more diverse and colorful cast, would just be a selection of tin cans otherwise.

Even with her suit she'd stick out.

I hope next gen dev tools have an easy to find colour picker. It's obviously hidden behind seven million options at the moment since no one seems to be using it.

Skiesofwonder said:
Good morning everyone! Just dropping in to say I'm going with my girlfriend to the Legend of Zelda Symphony in Atlanta tonight! I'm extremely excited, I thought this day would never get here. I plan on making the trip an all day event, but I'll try and drop in once and a while to see if anything Is new. Have fun speculating!

Thanks for the update?

Portugeezer · May 12, 2012

z0m3le said:
I'm sorry but those chips would run much hotter than a 640sp @ 800mhz, the size of AMD chips with 1280sp in their current GPU is 212mm^2 (the HD 7870) it has a TDP of 160 watts @ 1ghz.

The size of AMD's 640sp in the HD 7770 GPU is 123mm^2 it has a TDP of 80 watts @ 1ghz.

Basically it has about HALF the TDP for half the sp. Your chart would look like this if taken my points into consideration.

Sony: 1152 @ 800mhz ~110w TDP = 1843GFLOPs [88]
Microsoft: 1280 @ 800mhz ~122w TDP = 2048GFLOPs [98]
Nintendo: 640 @ 800mhz ~61w TDP = 1024GFLOPs [48]

Considering none of the console makers will use the heavy GCN architecture, we can probably shave off 20% of the heat, leaving you with the bracketed numbers above, now if these were embedded parts (as they likely will be) they could shave off even more heat, but it's easier to do this sort of calculation with a chip in mind, which is why I used the e6760 as a starting point.

Your belief that the Wii U couldn't handle a chip that hot (~50watts) is just wrong, having half the shaders basically means half the size and thus half the heat, and as many people in these threads have said in the past, the size of the console won't limit the TDP as much as people might think, it's all about air flow.

Ok now translate what you said into normal people language, if you don't mind

AlStrong · May 12, 2012

z0m3le said:
That is why my (granted) rough calculations/estimations are doable, the 6770m has a TDP of 30watts and runs at 725mhz with 480sp,

You do realize mobile parts are cherry picked for their particular thermal characteristics at particular voltages... It's part of the binning concept.

Also, power consumption can go down if they're using PCI-E 2.X instead of 3.0.

BurntPork · May 12, 2012

z0m3le said:
I'm sorry but those chips would run much hotter than a 640sp @ 800mhz, the size of AMD chips with 1280sp in their current GPU is 212mm^2 (the HD 7870) it has a TDP of 160 watts @ 1ghz.

The size of AMD's 640sp in the HD 7770 GPU is 123mm^2 it has a TDP of 80 watts @ 1ghz.

Basically it has about HALF the TDP for half the sp. Your chart would look like this if taken my points into consideration.

Sony: 1152 @ 800mhz ~110w TDP = 1843GFLOPs [88]
Microsoft: 1280 @ 800mhz ~122w TDP = 2048GFLOPs [98]
Nintendo: 640 @ 800mhz ~61w TDP = 1024GFLOPs [48]

Considering none of the console makers will use the heavy GCN architecture, we can probably shave off 20% of the heat, leaving you with the bracketed numbers above, now if these were embedded parts (as they likely will be) they could shave off even more heat, but it's easier to do this sort of calculation with a chip in mind, which is why I used the e6760 as a starting point.

Your belief that the Wii U couldn't handle a chip that hot (~50watts) is just wrong, having half the shaders basically means half the size and thus half the heat, and as many people in these threads have said in the past, the size of the console won't limit the TDP as much as people might think, it's all about air flow.

What?

WHAT!!?

Almost every single rumor from the very start has pointed to Sony and Microsoft using Southern Islands, including the PS4 target specs. If you're just going to make random and silly assumptions, then make more assumptions based on those assumptions, there's no point in continuing this conversation.

AlStrong said:
You do realize mobile parts are cherry picked for their particular thermal characteristics at particular voltages... It's part of the binning concept.

Thanks for explaining that better than I did.

Skiesofwonder · May 12, 2012

BGBW said:
Thanks for the update?

Sorry, I'm just excited.

z0m3le · May 12, 2012

BurntPork said:
What?

WHAT!!?

Almost every single rumor from the very start has pointed to Sony and Microsoft using Southern Islands. If you're just going to make random and silly assumptions, then make more assumptions based on those assumptions, there's no point in continuing this conversation.

LOL, if you believe that Sony and Microsoft are going to use off the shelf parts, and not a custom chip, that is totally fine, it also doesn't diminish what I've said about my Wii U speculation on the GPU. You can attack that point of my statement, but it literally has nothing to do with if that 640sp @ 800mhz is possible.

snowdog1971 · May 12, 2012

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Honestly, the game is interesting for me because:

1. No war setting

2. Campiness and it doesn't seem to take itself very seriously

3. Get good vibes from this team for some reason

It'll be a almost-sure-get if it controls well(hope for Remote options)

Yup, it's going to be the first game I buy for the same reasons plus a few more:

4) It's set in London and we finally have an Englishman in a video game that isn't a baddie lol

5) The humour seems right up my street (although you did mention that in your second point), but I dare say some holier-than-though reviewers will complain about it

6) The multiplayer is actually different, although I would want the usual Deathmatch Team Deathmatch and CTF games in addition to the mode shown in the proof-of-concept demo last year

7) I think it may be powered by the LyN engine, which is a nice piece of kit. Ubisoft Paris got some stunning visuals using the LyN engine on the Wii's underpowered hardware so I'm drooling at the thought of what sort of eye candy we're going to see on hardware more powerful than the PS3 and 360...

*Drools*

abasm · May 12, 2012

Luigison said:
Will all my Wii VC games transfer to my Wii U account? Would really suck if they don't.

Wouldn't it? I would not be surprised if that was literally a million-dollar question for Nintendo.

z0m3le · May 12, 2012

EuropeOG said:
Ok now translate what you said into normal people language, if you don't mind

Basically Wii U's GPU can be 640sp @ 800mhz if sony and microsoft can manage twice that, especially if they end up using GCN, which is a very bulky design thanks to it's GPGPU abilities... Uhh well I tried.

If xbox3 can produce 1080p game, Wii U will have the power to produce that same game, with the about the same details/effects at 720p.

Sadist · May 12, 2012

Oh man, that horrible stuff from the last page with Shepard, Samus, Isaac Clarke and more. I laughed out loud. Horrible horrible horrible.

Azure J · May 12, 2012

BurntPork said:
Nintendo, however? Unless the final box is much bigger, don't count on such high clocks.

While it still remains to be seen what final Wii U internals will be like while running, Nintendo made the Gamecube. This fact alone gives them the benefit of the doubt and when combined with the more volume in the Wii U's shell design and more real estate thanks to not packing GCN parts (Gamecube, not AMD's stuff

) nothing is ruled out until tests prove otherwise.

BlackJace · May 12, 2012

Yes that artwork was a bit random.

So uh, what HAVEN'T we speculated about? There's got to be a new topic or something..

abasm · May 12, 2012

BlackJace said:
Yes that artwork was a bit random.

So uh, what HAVEN'T we speculated about? There's got to be a new topic or something..

Sega Saturn on Virtual Console? Y/N

BlackJace · May 12, 2012

abasm said:
Sega Saturn on Virtual Console? Y/N

No...HELL no.

Nintendo putting lessen known systems like the Game Gear on the 3DS is a good sign. They need to reach every facet of the virtual console space.

nintendors · May 12, 2012

*This thread is moving soo faaast I cant even remember which page I replayed to ~_~ anyway thanx for all who replied to me,, i guess :/*

ok so hitman is gonna be released on Nov.30 ,,,so there might be a chance this will be unveiled for the WiiU.

and no news on Tomb Raider makes me thinks it will be pushed somewhere next year. So I'm really hoping Eidos & (sqeeinx?) comes to their senses and start porting the damn thing to the WiiU

Hot Coldman · May 12, 2012

Sadist said:
Oh man, that horrible stuff from the last page with Shepard, Samus, Isaac Clarke and more. I laughed out loud. Horrible horrible horrible.

...Oh.

Oh.

:/

BurntPork · May 12, 2012

z0m3le said:
LOL, if you believe that Sony and Microsoft are going to use off the shelf parts, and not a custom chip, that is totally fine, it also doesn't diminish what I've said about my Wii U speculation on the GPU. You can attack that point of my statement, but it literally has nothing to do with if that 640sp @ 800mhz is possible.

I said nothing about off the shelf. Stop putting words into my mouth. They're going to use GCN. That's a certainty at this point.

And Alstrong just explained the mobile part issue. You just chose to plug your ears and go, "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Acting like that makes having a conversation with you a waste of time for both of us.

AzureJericho said:
While it still remains to be seen what final Wii U internals will be like while running, Nintendo made the Gamecube. This fact alone gives them the benefit of the doubt and when combined with the more volume in the Wii U's shell design and more real estate thanks to not packing GCN parts (Gamecube, not AMD's stuff ) nothing is ruled out until tests prove otherwise.

GameCube had a 25W TDP.

BY2K · May 12, 2012

If Sony announces a price drop for the Vita and a great line-up, Nintendo gotta counter-attack with the 3DS. (Not a price drop but some amazing stuff will be needed.)

Disorientator · May 12, 2012

I though the Upad "does not perform game processeses" in any way, acting more like a "thin client", just "decoding" the received video/audio stream.

What is this talking about?

What's the meaning of "the process of generating the terminal game image may be performed by the terminal device" ?

(source - p32)

Talking about the 3DS maybe OR even written before Upad design finalized?

wsippel · May 12, 2012

AlStrong said:
You do realize mobile parts are cherry picked for their particular thermal characteristics at particular voltages... It's part of the binning concept.

Also, power consumption can go down if they're using PCI-E 2.X instead of 3.0.

I don't really see why they should use PCI-E to begin with.

tkscz · May 12, 2012

BY2K said:
Is Sony announced a price drop for the Vita and a great line-up, Nintendo gotta counter-attack with the 3DS. (Not a price drop but some amazing stuff will be needed.)

Well this was kind of random.

AlStrong said:
You do realize mobile parts are cherry picked for their particular thermal characteristics at particular voltages... It's part of the binning concept.

Also, power consumption can go down if they're using PCI-E 2.X instead of 3.0.

Don't know much about console hardware do you?

BY2K · May 12, 2012

BurntPork · May 12, 2012

tkscz said:
Well this was kind of random.

My bed is messed up and it's causing me back pain. Also, I'd like a bacon and egg sandwich about now.

I WILL NOT BE OUT-RANDOMED!

Azure J · May 12, 2012

BurntPork said:
GameCube had a 25W TDP.

OK.... But how does citing what kind of TDP rating the Gamecube had subtract from what I'm saying, namely if Nintendo wanted to, they could work out something much more powerful than what's out now while remaining under a small TDP/form factor? I cited Gamecube as a precedent.

wsippel · May 12, 2012

BurntPork said:
What?

WHAT!!?

Almost every single rumor from the very start has pointed to Sony and Microsoft using Southern Islands, including the PS4 target specs. If you're just going to make random and silly assumptions, then make more assumptions based on those assumptions, there's no point in continuing this conversation.

The chips mentioned in most rumors are just rebranded Northern Islands GPUs. Only the top end 7xxx chips are actually Southern Islands GPUs. AMD does that shit all the time.

tkscz · May 12, 2012

BY2K said:

With that being said, E3 needs to hurry up, I want to use this image so badly

BurntPork · May 12, 2012

AzureJericho said:
OK.... But how does citing what kind of TDP rating the Gamecube had subtract from what I'm saying, namely if Nintendo wanted to, they could work out something much more powerful than what's out now while remaining under a small TDP/form factor? I cited Gamecube as a precedent.

No amount of customizing can defy the laws of physics. Parts use more power now than they did 11 years ago.

wsippel said:
The chips mentioned in most rumors are just rebranded Northern Islands GPUs. Only the top end 7xxx chips are actually Southern Islands GPUs. AMD does that shit all the time.

Only IGN rumored the 6670/7670. Every other rumor says SI, though they don't mention a specific chip.

ozfunghi · May 12, 2012

bgassassin said:
Yeah. I can see Wii U's GPU having fundamental similarities to that GPU. I'm anxious to learn what the final looks like and what it's capable of.

I'm confident in what it will be able to do, and at the same time that confidence has been based on a viewpoint that ignores the tweaks Nintendo had been making. So it should at least be slightly better than what I've been saying.

that article is over a year old... any chance, should they take this route, that they might be working on a newer embedded chip?

tkscz · May 12, 2012

BurntPork said:
No amount of customizing can defy the laws of physics. Parts use more power now than they did 11 years ago.

Only IGN rumored the 6670/7670. Every other rumor says SI, though they don't mention a specific chip.

Ah, while that's true, parts are also smaller than they were 11 years ago. Shrinking the die size uses less electricity and produces less heat, making it easier to cool. I think that's his point.

Anteo · May 12, 2012

Green Scar said:
Kinda odd how those GMod pictures are mostly dudes in space armour, and Samus (a character with one of the most well-known suits in gaming) is conveniently left in the Zero Suit.

She is badass enough w/o her suit

BurntPork · May 12, 2012

tkscz said:
Ah, while that's true, parts are also smaller than they were 11 years ago. Shrinking the die size uses less electricity and produces less heat, making it easier to cool. I think that's his point.

Yes, which allows greater total system power consumption, which is the reason nobody thinks that Wii U will have a 25W TDP. So?

gamergirly · May 12, 2012

All this hardware talk. Let's speculate about games again....plz

Monty Mole · May 12, 2012

SolidSnakex said:
Hopefully Nintendo really plans on pushing downloadable games on the Wii U. They should really take advantage of their relationships with Japanese devs and go to them to produce exclusive sequels to some of their classic franchises. 2D versions of Ninja Gaiden, Streets of Rage, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius etc. Similar to what Capcom did with Mega Man 9 and 10. They could even reuse sprites from those early games as the retro look is very much accepted with downloadable games. It instantly give their network an identity.

Completely agree but 3DS hasn't given me much confidence in their online plans at all. They could do so much in that space though.

Monty Mole · May 12, 2012

wsippel said:
Not directly Wii U related, but several middleware providers have started adding support for an unannounced new platform over the last few days, so either Xbox3 or PS4. That usually happens around 10 to 18 months before a platform launches, so it really looks like Nintendo will have a significant head start.

Well, that depends on how you look at it.

BlackJace · May 12, 2012

Monty Mole said:
Completely agree but 3DS hasn't given me much confidence in their online plans at all. They could do so much in that space though.

What do they need to do? The Friend List is functional, the 3DS eShop is on the rise, AND it's getting a standalone website. The damn thing has APPS, some very useful. The NiN has given me no problems so far (been playing KI:U online and have experienced almost zero lag).

If these things aren't enough to convince you that the Wii U's online will be bigger and better, then I don't know what will haha.

z0m3le · May 12, 2012

BurntPork said:
I said nothing about off the shelf. Stop putting words into my mouth. They're going to use GCN. That's a certainty at this point.

And Alstrong just explained the mobile part issue. You just chose to plug your ears and go, "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Acting like that makes having a conversation with you a waste of time for both of us.

GameCube had a 25W TDP.

GCN is not a certainty, heck no rumors are certainties, its all speculation. Even if Sony gives you a fact, you have to watch it, unless you believe PS4 will do 4D

I haven't said Wii U will use a mobile part, I said it would use an embedded one, which happens to usually be based off mobile parts which are based on desktop parts.

This is exactly why I am posting less and less in this thread as E3 gets closer, this argument about speculation is far to personal to you, and I don't understand that as it is my speculation, I've tried replying to points you bring up, but you don't respond to them and instead keep giving me the same response about mobile parts that neither of us are talking about.

Disorientator · May 12, 2012

Disorientator said:
I though the Upad "does not perform game processeses" in any way, acting more like a "thin client", just "decoding" the received video/audio stream.

What is this talking about?

What's the meaning of "the process of generating the terminal game image may be performed by the terminal device" ?

Talking about the 3DS maybe OR even written before Upad design finalized?

Anyone? I'm I reading it all wrong?

tkscz · May 12, 2012

z0m3le said:
GCN is not a certainty, heck no rumors are certainties, its all speculation. Even if Sony gives you a fact, you have to watch it, unless you believe PS4 will do 4D

I haven't said Wii U will use a mobile part, I said it would use an embedded one, which happens to usually be based off mobile parts which are based on desktop parts.

This is exactly why I am posting less and less in this thread as E3 gets closer, this argument about speculation is far to personal to you, and I don't understand that as it is my speculation, I've tried replying to points you bring up, but you don't respond to them and instead keep giving me the same response about mobile parts that neither of us are talking about.

thisisneogafdude.gif

Portugeezer · May 12, 2012

z0m3le said:
Basically Wii U's GPU can be 640sp @ 800mhz if sony and microsoft can manage twice that, especially if they end up using GCN, which is a very bulky design thanks to it's GPGPU abilities... Uhh well I tried.

If xbox3 can produce 1080p game, Wii U will have the power to produce that same game, with the about the same details/effects at 720p.

Ok, gotcha (though I still don't know what dp or GCN (I keep reading Gamecube) means).

TBH I don't expect 1080p to be the standard for 720/PS4, a lot of the games will probably be like 900p. But it would be good if what you say is true, at least for the Wii U not missing out on multiplat titles if 720/PS4 are more powerful.

AlStrong · May 12, 2012

tkscz said:
Don't know much about console hardware do you?

What do you mean? 360 has a couple PCI-E express lanes to connect to the southbridge(audio, I/O), so there's even less power consumption than typical (less die space and power feeding 16 lanes or more complex/higher bandwidth ones). Don't know if they need much more bandwidth for other things. Depends on what they plan to do. i.e. more bandwidth for I/O like...Kinect 2?

edit: Considering the PCI-E lanes aren't saturated often, when the IHVs switch out for fewer lanes or older PCI-E in a laptop, it's more about cutting corners so they can fit within a laptop TDP despite the overly complicated heat pipe/heatsink system.

z0m3le · May 12, 2012

EuropeOG said:
Ok, gotcha. Though TBH I don't expect 1080p to be the standard for 720/PS4, a lot of the games will probably be like 900p.

I think it all depends on how well Wii U does, if it positions itself as the 360 of this gen, then ps4 / Xbox3 will get uprez'd ports for the most part. We will have to see. A large portion of how Wii U does comes down to its user base buying the games on it. Even PS2 positioning is possible.

Portugeezer · May 12, 2012

z0m3le said:
I think it all depends on how well Wii U does, if it positions itself as the 360 of this gen, then ps4 / Xbox3 will get uprez'd ports for the most part. We will have to see. A large portion of how Wii U does comes down to its user base buying the games on it. Even PS2 positioning is possible.

You could be right. How much more powerful were the GCN/Xbox in comparison to PS2? Both seem like a lot from the specs.

z0m3le · May 12, 2012

EuropeOG said:
You could be right. How much more powerful were the GCN/Xbox in comparison to PS2? Both seem like a lot from the specs.

What specs you can compare between the ps2 and Xbox, left the ps2 less than half as powerful.

Though the biggest difference was that ps2 was out dated, its gpu lacked the modern features of the Xbox's gpu, that is why Xbox games looked so much better with multiports

Smellycat · May 12, 2012

Smellycat · May 12, 2012

Do you guys think the industry can survive another generation like this one? We have seen so many companies/developers struggling and closing. Even big companies like Konami, Sega, and Capcom (somewhat) have been licking their wounds this gen.

Can we afford another generation with expensive tech, and high development costs?

I think Nintendo is playing it smart and not going all out with the hardware.

What do you guys think? Will a big publisher/one of the big 3 go under the bus next gen, if things stay the same?

edit: posting again for new page

Dreamwriter · May 12, 2012

Disorientator said:
Anyone? I'm I reading it all wrong?

Thing you have to realize is that a patent doesn't necessarily describe a real product. When writing a patent, a company is going to try and make it cover as many possible variations as possible, so that they are covered if a competitor decides to take their idea and just make a small change. So that part of the patent is trying to cover both thin-client devices and smarter devices that function as self-contained portable game systems.

Portugeezer · May 12, 2012

Smellycat said:
Do you guys think the industry can survive another generation like this one? We have seen so many companies/developers struggling and closing. Even big companies like Konami, Sega, and Capcom (somewhat) have been licking their wounds this gen.

Can we afford another generation with expensive tech, and high development costs?

I think Nintendo is playing it smart and not going all out with the hardware.

What do you guys think? Will a big publisher/one of the big 3 go under the bus next gen, if things stay the same?

I never actually understood why this gen was considered expensive to produce games.

I know PS3 was a pain in the ass to develop for, but could that alone mess it up so much?

Does every game need massive development teams? Some games destined to struggle for 1 million sales have huge development teams.

z0m3le said:
What specs you can compare between the ps2 and Xbox, left the ps2 less than half as powerful.

Though the biggest difference was that ps2 was out dated, its gpu lacked the modern features of the Xbox's gpu, that is why Xbox games looked so much better with multiports

Can Wii U do tessellation? No doubt 720/PS4 will.

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