Leona Lewis
Banned
Damn, that was pretty suspenseful. Didn't think you were gonna make it for a second
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NieR: Automata Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter BRSxIgnition
- Start date
Thanks for the tips. I overrode the centipede and self-destruct. I couldn't get a handle on the platforming bit. :-\
Finished the game 3 days ago, while I wasn't totally in love with it throughout my playthrough, getting Ending E, sitting there and waiting for the pieces to fall in place in my brain and reflecting on it all made NieR Automata out to be one of the best games I've played in recent years. There is hardly a word, nah you might even say a letter, wasted in the script. Everything has meaning and weight, but you have to invest time and patience to see and finish it all for it to ultimately pay off. But it is so worth it. Amazing game.
Slowly making my way through the spoiler thread now, because I keep thinking about the game, even putting off starting Persona 5 until today because I'd rather read more about NieR: Automata. But anyway, maybe it's come up already, but I just wanted to confirm:
Jackass discovers the E-Drug due to combat situations. So Androids kinda have their own ways of producing something similar to hormones, enhancing or even creating emotions due to extreme situations. Many android pairings in the bunker seem to be between active squad members, especially the more succesful ones. Operator 60 for example seems a bit less lucky. So if we assume basic romance to bloom on the battlefield, maybe the unique and more advanced relationship between 9S and 2B is only possible because 2B keeps killing 9S, so the release of all those stimulating and intense feelings is directly related to that act between the two as opposed to just living through combat situations together against the machines.
Slowly making my way through the spoiler thread now, because I keep thinking about the game, even putting off starting Persona 5 until today because I'd rather read more about NieR: Automata. But anyway, maybe it's come up already, but I just wanted to confirm:
Jackass discovers the E-Drug due to combat situations. So Androids kinda have their own ways of producing something similar to hormones, enhancing or even creating emotions due to extreme situations. Many android pairings in the bunker seem to be between active squad members, especially the more succesful ones. Operator 60 for example seems a bit less lucky. So if we assume basic romance to bloom on the battlefield, maybe the unique and more advanced relationship between 9S and 2B is only possible because 2B keeps killing 9S, so the release of all those stimulating and intense feelings is directly related to that act between the two as opposed to just living through combat situations together against the machines.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
In NieR 1 humanity was dying because of the watchers and the Legion. Project Gestalt was just a last ditch shot in the dark that was on it's last legs because of faulty science. Yeah Replicant NieR was the straw that broke the camels vack, but it goes to show how desperate the whole idea was in the first place.
Ultimately humans were doomed by circumstances not in their control.
Similarly, the aliens in Automata served as an origin point for the ongoing conflict. But it's notable that in both games, those elements only serve to set up the larger scenario, and the larger emotional and plot beats are used to springboard off them instead of directly using them as an unfathomable evil antagonist in the present day - the atrocities of the Hamelin Organisation were committed by humans desperate to survive, and the similarly cruel actions of the android command and machine consciousness are also shown to have their root in 'human' needs and desires.
So I was in bed last night thinking about Nier Automata and Nier, listening to the OSTs for both, and I know exactly why I liked Nier more from a story-perspective (gameplay Automata kicks its butt, no question). When I listen to the Nier OST and think about the characters, Nier, Kaine, Emil, the Desert King, Devola, Popola, to put it in millennial-speak, I get the feels. Nier/Kaine/Emil/Desert People were all characters I grew really attached to and I cared about. Seeing them and their stories of struggling for life and survival in a world where everything is going greek tragedy pulls at the heartstrings and created an extremely impactful and memorable tale.
With Automata...I can't think of any time I had any feelings when stuff happened to B2/9S/A2. It was more just watching it all play out from a detached observer point of view. This was more similar to the Drakengard characters (although better) where they're more standard anime/videogame characters and the game is more about the plot than the characters. The only feels I got about the main trio was growing to hate 9S in the second half and I couldn't wait to kill his dumb ass (ending C was satisfying although I wish you didn't save him, in that respect Ending D watching 9S squirm with a sword through him in horrible pain was a bit more satisfying; yeah I realllllly didn't like 9S). Yes, Nier Automata was also about characters struggling to survive in a greek tragedy of the world, but to me, almost everything was detached like a more typical action videogame and non-impactful.
But I said, almost, and that's because there are characters in Nier Automata I cared about and that gave me the feels. Emil's story was the most moving/touching part of the game and the ending really makes me sad; though a lot of that is because his story has carried over and I already cared about Emil. I cared about Pascal as well, and felt bad about his end. But the main cast just never gave me a reason to care about them, and it was more just watching their story play out and thinking "hey, this is a neat sci-fi short story" from a detached point of view. It's still a good, neat sci-fi story. It's an interesting tale, more interesting than 90% of game stories, and it's definitely going to be one of my favorite games this year. But unlike Nier, I can't imagine myself in a year feeling anything about the story/characters and therefore probably just forgetting it over time. Whereas I still think about Nier and probably will the rest of my life. It's up there in the top 10 game stories of all time for me.
Now maybe it's unfair to compare characters to the level of Nier, since that's Taro's best work from a writing perspective, and the Drakengard games I've experienced (1 & 2, I started 3 last year but still early in it) haven't provided characters I care about either and those characters exist more for the laughs while watching the wacky crazy plot.
tldr; while I really liked Nier Automata, the reason the story generally falls flat for me on an emotional level and lacks the impact of the original Nier is that B2/9S/A2 are robotic. Well duh, they're androids. Hopefully the next Nier game is about humans.
With Automata...I can't think of any time I had any feelings when stuff happened to B2/9S/A2. It was more just watching it all play out from a detached observer point of view. This was more similar to the Drakengard characters (although better) where they're more standard anime/videogame characters and the game is more about the plot than the characters. The only feels I got about the main trio was growing to hate 9S in the second half and I couldn't wait to kill his dumb ass (ending C was satisfying although I wish you didn't save him, in that respect Ending D watching 9S squirm with a sword through him in horrible pain was a bit more satisfying; yeah I realllllly didn't like 9S
). Yes, Nier Automata was also about characters struggling to survive in a greek tragedy of the world, but to me, almost everything was detached like a more typical action videogame and non-impactful.But I said, almost, and that's because there are characters in Nier Automata I cared about and that gave me the feels. Emil's story was the most moving/touching part of the game and the ending really makes me sad; though a lot of that is because his story has carried over and I already cared about Emil. I cared about Pascal as well, and felt bad about his end. But the main cast just never gave me a reason to care about them, and it was more just watching their story play out and thinking "hey, this is a neat sci-fi short story" from a detached point of view. It's still a good, neat sci-fi story. It's an interesting tale, more interesting than 90% of game stories, and it's definitely going to be one of my favorite games this year. But unlike Nier, I can't imagine myself in a year feeling anything about the story/characters and therefore probably just forgetting it over time. Whereas I still think about Nier and probably will the rest of my life. It's up there in the top 10 game stories of all time for me.
Now maybe it's unfair to compare characters to the level of Nier, since that's Taro's best work from a writing perspective, and the Drakengard games I've experienced (1 & 2, I started 3 last year but still early in it) haven't provided characters I care about either and those characters exist more for the laughs while watching the wacky crazy plot.
tldr; while I really liked Nier Automata, the reason the story generally falls flat for me on an emotional level and lacks the impact of the original Nier is that B2/9S/A2 are robotic. Well duh, they're androids. Hopefully the next Nier game is about humans.
StormBrute
Member
I generally agree with most of this post, and I think your problems with feeling detached from the main game are similarly why it hasn't connected with me as much as others.
However, I think the reason why the main characters are difficult to connect to is the lack of personal motivation and interests for them. I don't think the reason for that is because they're written as robotic or androids; the humanity of non-humans is a huge part of the game, after all. They're still written very well, and felt very human to me, and in addition, other robotic characters don't have this problem with making you care about them, as you mentioned (Devola/Popola and Pascal chiefly, but also many sidequest robots).
The problem to me is that the main cast isn't compelling, by which I mean their goals and motivations are very lacking. I don't think that's an oversight actually – I think it was on purpose – but I also think it wasn't the best idea. The reason I think this is because everything in the main game is written very purposefully for the main themes, focusing on the meaningless nature of things, and so it makes sense that the main quest is written to feel kinda pointless as well from the main characters' perspectives. I mean, the ending conflict is that none of it matters, and 9S is aimlessly lashing out at the world.
The problem is that while the main quest is important thematically for showing how all these different people deal with finding meaning, I never got the feeling of what the meaning was for 2B/9S/A2 doing what they were doing. In the first half, the motivation is that 2B and 9S are following orders, and in the second half it's that 9S and A2 aimlessly want to kill machines. It's pointless and meaningless, and I think that is the point for the overall themes and the idea of how this whole conflict is meaningless, but it brings difficulty for how to make the characters themselves compelling if you just focus on the meaningless side of it.
The themes aren't irreconcilable with compelling characters, so I think it was just a matter of misplaced focus hurting the main cast, and how some people are thus less able to connect with the plot. I think a more fleshed out route C for A2 could have solved this problem for the overall plot, diving more into her journey finding meaning again. On a larger level, incorporating more on the meaning part for each of the main cast (like 2B and 9S's doomed, star-crossed love in the first half) could help to make them more compelling, and possibly also make 9S's aimless slaughter in route C even more depressing. I think this is all stuff along the lines of what they were going for, it just fell short in the execution.
I see that people who preferred the first Nier typically prefer it due to it being more emotional, that they liked its cast better.
Which is interesting, as that wasn't Taro's goal this time around. I mean yea, he definitely had stuff that tug on your heartstrings like Pascal, 9S slowly going mad, 2B dying, the tragic love story between the two, Devola and Popola, etc., but his intention was never to top the first game in terms of being more "emotional."
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-letter-to-both-rpg-fans-and-action-veterans/
The main focus this time around was prioritizing and putting at the forefront the game's various themes, such as dealing with the cycle of violence and destruction, if life really has any meaning, is it worth fighting for even if it doesn't, gender roles/norms/identity, religion, etc. etc.
With that being said, no one is wrong or anything if they preferred the first game due to liking its cast more, or for some other reason. I'm just saying that if anyone is looking at it from a perspective that Yoko Taro did not make Automata as "emotional" as the first game, so therefore it isn't as good as the first game, that doesn't seem to have been his goal in the first place.
As for those that just simply didn't care much for the androids, or maybe not at all, well... I can't relate to that one lol
Which is interesting, as that wasn't Taro's goal this time around. I mean yea, he definitely had stuff that tug on your heartstrings like Pascal, 9S slowly going mad, 2B dying, the tragic love story between the two, Devola and Popola, etc., but his intention was never to top the first game in terms of being more "emotional."
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-letter-to-both-rpg-fans-and-action-veterans/
The main focus this time around was prioritizing and putting at the forefront the game's various themes, such as dealing with the cycle of violence and destruction, if life really has any meaning, is it worth fighting for even if it doesn't, gender roles/norms/identity, religion, etc. etc.
With that being said, no one is wrong or anything if they preferred the first game due to liking its cast more, or for some other reason. I'm just saying that if anyone is looking at it from a perspective that Yoko Taro did not make Automata as "emotional" as the first game, so therefore it isn't as good as the first game, that doesn't seem to have been his goal in the first place.
As for those that just simply didn't care much for the androids, or maybe not at all, well... I can't relate to that one lol
RubberLuffy
Banned
Seems that the NieR concerts they're having actually have new story/lore stuff
https://www.reddit.com/r/nier/comments/6729ys/spoilers_new_2b9s_information_from_nier_concert/
Including the JP VAs acting out a post ending E scene?!
https://www.reddit.com/r/nier/comments/6729ys/spoilers_new_2b9s_information_from_nier_concert/
Including the JP VAs acting out a post ending E scene?!
Being a taro fan is painful ;_;
This is a great post. Thanks. I agree with pretty much everything you just wrote.
A2 also wasn't surprised. I think that's one of the obvious hints some sort of loop is going. They seemed to know each other already.
Some translated info from Nier Concert script reading: https://www.reddit.com/r/nier/comments/6729ys/spoilers_new_2b9s_information_from_nier_concert/
And a friendly warning not to read spoilers from post-E script. And if you do then know that there are no hard proofs for anything yet.
And a friendly warning not to read spoilers from post-E script. And if you do then know that there are no hard proofs for anything yet.
DrunkShogun
Member
I have fear the longer we stay in a Yoko taro universe, the more danger we face that ending e might become another ending d. Come on A2, 9s and 2b. Make us proud and don't end up causing each other's death.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I think you could see this as falling into the trap of meaninglessness as the theme. Yes, you can interpret their quest as ultimately meaningless, but in the end it's about finding your own meaning. It's what makes 2e's and 9s's journey so bittersweet. There might not be much meaning in having to kill your lover/sticking around even though you know you're getting killed constantly, but they stuck around anyway because they found the simple fact of being together meaningful, even through the pain and deceit. And i think they conveyed that across very well, just not conventionally, but me realising that after finishing the game actually gave it more of an impact.
I don't think that's a mistake either, seeing that in a world full of lesbian robots and adam and Eve, 2b and 9s are by far the biggest pairing, so plenty of people are able to emotionally attach themselves to their tragic story. It might be unconventional but it works.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Watching Damiani from EZA go through C, D and E endings is traumatic lol
If you care about story and characters of Neir, then don't watch that, hahaha.
If you care about story and characters of Neir, then don't watch that, hahaha.
How About No
Member
That whole sequence :[
It didn't really hit me until Dad Machine came up to me and punched me :[[[[[[[
RubberLuffy
Banned
I believe he died locked inside the house which is pretty damn sad.
His icon still shows up in the minimap. I'm guessing PG forgot about him.
Ohh I didnt notice that part. Thats interesting.
Guess he did such a good job at locking himself away that everyone, including the game's own designers, forgot all about him.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I'm pretty sure it's intentional. You also meet the robot on a break in the amusement Park who didn't get infected.
You can't say that and not give us a link :CCCC
The one thing that's pretty obnoxious about Nier is how much important stuff is tied up in Japan-only transmedia junk.
I had no idea about this channel! :O
Thanks for the link!
EDIT: I don't know what I expected
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
We already got the 9 from EZA though and that's all that matters!
RubberLuffy
Banned
It shows up in a lot of twitch stream headers, but I wonder how many people bought this game because of "hot android butts" and were completely blindsided by all the existential angst and probing questions about humanity.
It's like half of all the streams during the first weeks of release mentioned butts in some way. Even now, almost 2 months later you still see it.
It's like half of all the streams during the first weeks of release mentioned butts in some way. Even now, almost 2 months later you still see it.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
I have no clue why but when you start your second play through as 9S that Robot that keeps going "Brother... Brother... Brother..."
Then does the oil thing, fucking chokes me up, no clue why
Damn machines giving me these feels!
Then does the oil thing, fucking chokes me up, no clue why
Damn machines giving me these feels!
That's strange. During the talk between A2 and 9S just before the duel, the music is very 8-bit-ized. I don't remember it sounding like that any other time's I've seen the scene.
Edit: Watched the rest. I am irrationally angry at how that lazy dude cba spending 5 minutes on ending E and just youtubes it, AND skips the best part. FFS.
Ok so are all Nier fans in the same boat? I really really am trying to like Nier: Automata but it just falls a bit short of what I was expecting. I mean, it's got some cool ass parts, and the hopelessness they set up is thought provoking. But it's missing that "Soul" I felt from Nier. And the characters seem somewhat undeveloped.
I've only done A,B, and C, but I'm having a hard time motivating myself to get the others. Should I? Does it flesh out anything?
So go a bit deeper, I'm missing things like Kaine's backstory, the wolves, and compete tone changes from Nier.
just finish it, D and E only takes 20 mins.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I feel like it's more like nier fans expecting a specific kind of story telling from a man who says he does not like to repeat himself too much.
But yeah finish D and E lol.
Also 2B/9S/A2 are hardly robotic.
But yeah finish D and E lol.
Also 2B/9S/A2 are hardly robotic.
RubberLuffy
Banned
I'm not. The more I think about it, the more I like Automata over the first game, and I think C/D/E really cements that for me. A lot maybe because of my current lot in life and mindset, but I was deeply affected by a lot of Automata and over a month later I still read this thread, watch streams, youtubes, and get heavily emotional rewitnessing the same events over and over.
It's not trying to be NieR 2. It's not called NieR 2, I believe on purpose. I know it's hard and everyone loves doing it, but I think comparing the 2 games isn't fair to either of them because they're both going for such different things.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Like 2B/9S may not show the group camadarie of weiss/nier/kaine/emil but holy hell, once you recontextualise their interactions, I was gobsmacked at how much emotional depth there was in scenes where I thought was just stilted character writing.
I like that the relationship between 2B/9S is subtle. There is sidequest that show they clearly care about it and replaying it and seeing some things said give it a new meaning and you understand better why some interactions were the way they were at that time. They have their layers to explore but at the same time you can entirely skip some of those interactions that shows you their bonding or them caring about each other cause some of those moments can be hidden between sidequests. Like it was said before the style in Automata is a dry approach of interactions in contrast to Nier cause its simply not trying to make the same type of game over again.
RubberLuffy
Banned
Yeah there's a lot to unpack about 9S and 2B. If there's one thing the NieR and Automata have in common it's what love can do to a person, such as Papa/Bro Nier's familial love dooming mankind, and 2B/9S's romantic love being doomed, with 2B's love being kept hidden (and causing much anguish) and 9S's overcome by his rage
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The game is jam-packed with emotionally charged scenes, most of the sidequests are emotional, and ending E might be the sappiest thing Taro has ever written.
If he was trying to create a "dry" game, then I think he really fucked up somewhere lol
If he was trying to create a "dry" game, then I think he really fucked up somewhere lol
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I do wonder how nier automata, which is the biggest exposure taro has ever gotten before it's released, would have been received if it had the tone and style of characters as drakengard.
Like from the most hopeful taro has ever been to the bleakest. XD
Especially seeing that part of why reviewers liked it is its message of hope.
Like from the most hopeful taro has ever been to the bleakest. XD
Especially seeing that part of why reviewers liked it is its message of hope.
Basileus777
Member
Well Drakengard is not nearly as good as either of the Nier games even if you disregard the gameplay. The first Drakengard is a crazy/bizarre experience, but one that even at the time learned pretty hard on the novelty factor.
And you're just reminding me of how disappointing Drakengard 3 was in pretty much every facet.
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