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Baten Kaitos 1 & 2 appreciation thread

C

charlequin

Banned
botticus said:
I have a feeling I just need someone to explain this to me. I played a couple hours of the first game a few years ago, and (from what I recall) in it you collect cards and use random arrangements of said cards for everything in battle, out of decks you can organize outside of battle. If someone can provide me with a mindset in which this is not a card game, I think I could be persuaded to rebuy the game and try it again!
Click to expand...

A correctly-built deck in BK1 consists at least 2/3rds of redundant attack "equipment" cards that all do the same thing (damage your opponents) and vary mostly by number and element; you will generally build someone's deck one time early on, and then just tweak it by replacing crappier attacks with better attacks as you find them in chests. A correctly-built deck in BK:O consists at least 2/3s of 100% generic Attack 1/2/3 cards that you literally almost never change during the game; your deck building consists mainly of swapping out finishing moves or weapon equips for better ones that you find during the game.

In both cases, the "randomness" is really just a matter of what proportions you draw your major cards in and whether you get access to a few specific cards you'd only carry a couple of (revives, etc.) -- most of what you're doing in battle is using attack cards that you will always have in your hand no matter what.

Mejilan said:
Defensive cards in BK1 are usually a waste of space.
Click to expand...

Ohhhhhh shit. Yes, I see the problem now, botticus: the game "encourages" you to use these useless shield and defense cards by giving them to you, but in reality they are not useful and the game is significantly more fun if you ignore them almost completely. :lol
 
M

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Woops, I forgot to factor restoratives into my little breakdown above. But Char's got it right. The decks don't change much throughout the game, once the general structure is built. You'll just upgrade the individual components as better gear/spells/restoratives become available. The progression is rather natural to anyone that's ever played a JRPG. There's very little left to random chance, and provides a very satisfying amount of decision-making and control.

Instead of thinking of it as a "deck of cards" just look at it as a measurable number of equipment/item slots allowed in any one battle. But one where you can choose the ratio between the number of weapons/spells/curatives. It's fantastic.

Edit - So, to sum up:
Curative items > purely defensive gear
Weaker weapons with defensive properties > purely defensive gear
 
B

botticus

Member
charlequin said:
Ohhhhhh shit. Yes, I see the problem now, botticus: the game "encourages" you to use these useless shield and defense cards by giving them to you, but in reality they are not useful and the game is significantly more fun if you ignore them almost completely. :lol
Click to expand...
This is becoming much clearer to me.
 
A

AColdDay

Member
The use of defensive items in BK:O allows you to play the game in a different manner, but I don't think that the mechanics were fully realized. What the developers ended up with is a system where you are rewarded for not bringing any defensive gear and loading up on attack cards instead. It's even a bad idea to load your deck with multiple weapons, as you will inevitably end up drawing 5 weapon cards at once and not being able to pull off any sort of good combo.

I actually went with very few cards once I figured out the system, until the use of multiple special attacks because absolutely neccessary.

I think my load out was something like 1 weapon for each character, one of those super healing items, some attack cards and everyone's special. Even going that light (no extra supplies to use, no defensive items) doesn't guarantee link combos on every turn, as that goddamn combo meter never filled up fast enough half the time.

Even though it sounds like a gripe, it is that random element in battle that makes it fun. If this were a traditional rpg, you would always use your most powerful special attacks every turn and every battle. In this game, you have no idea what you are going to be doing from one turn to the next, and it is always a mad scramble to cobble something together. That frenzy is what causes the battle system to be so damn rewarding. Which is something that few rpg battle systems have going for them.
 
J

jj984jj

He's a pretty swell guy in my books anyway.
bucklam66 said:
Both are good games with Origins being the best out of the two, even though i liked the first games battle system slightly more; cause i enjoyed constructing separate decks for each character.
Click to expand...
I agree, plus I thought there was enough of a randomness factor in battles without having everyone's cards thrown in together. I was happy I no longer had to go to the church to level up though.
 
S

selig

Banned
Mejilan said:
Edit - So, to sum up:
Curative items > purely defensive gear
Weaker weapons with defensive properties > purely defensive gear
Click to expand...

wait, so i should just replace all defensive cards with more attack card (like swords or spells)?
I started a new game, so i might try this...
 
M

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
selig said:
wait, so i should just replace all defensive cards with more attack card (like swords or spells)?
I started a new game, so i might try this...
Click to expand...

You might one to keep around a few, but in general, the further I got into BK1, the less I bothered with defensive gear.

You're better off equipping restoratives that allow you to heal damage rather than putting in enough defense cards to improve your chances of actually getting one of the right element, at the right time.

Near guaranteed periodic healing > random chances to nullify some damage
 
M

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
I think I may restart my BK1 run on my Wii one of these days.
I always regretted not finishing it, but it's been so long, I can't even remember what was going on. Blah blah blah, something about crossing a desert and having enough water...
 
D

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Was really hyped for the first game, due to the beautiful pre-rendered artwork, amazing world design (Mira especially, the Tower of Druaga reference and the papercraft world, omg), and tri-Crescendo battle system... but came away really disappointed. While I loved the battle system, I thought the gameplay was rather sluggish and frustrating (especially the lack of fast movement, push-block-puzzle tower, and the limited # of Quest Magnus you could carry), and the story (outside of the major plot twist) didn't really work for me.

So I had a lot of reservations about the sequel, but picked it up at launch anyways, due to positive import impressions on here of all places. One of the few times GAF steered me right... took everything I loved about the first game, and made it drastically better. Amazing localization thanks to 8-4, some of Sakuraba's best music (insane buttrock!), great storyline that ties into the first game perfectly. Only things I didn't like were I thought the final plot twist
Quaestor Verus wasn't some humble cripple but was manipulating you all along
was unnecessary, and that I wish there were a few more "new" areas to go to. Did everything in the game except for the Pac Man quest.

The sequel is one of the top RPGs from last gen.

EDIT: Kadey, "Giacomo"
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Chaos dance. :lol I'd be lying if I said it wasn't catchy. What was the brother's name? Geronimo or something?
 
C

charlequin

Banned
selig said:
wait, so i should just replace all defensive cards with more attack card (like swords or spells)?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for everyone, but I found that at least 90% of the time, the defensive items were just worse than having more offensive spells (and therefore being able to do longer offensive combos that killed your enemies more quickly, thereby saving you from damage.) Even against bosses, the defense cards are rarely more beneficial than just healing/reviving people and dealing damage faster.

In the BK, defensive cards can at least be slightly useful, and having weapons that double as defense cards can be worthwhile. In BKO, armor is completely fucking useless.
 
M

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
This thread has encouraged me to replay through the series, though I'm going in chronological order, rather than order of the games being published. Just started Origins tonight and made it all the way up to Lake Botein. Can't wait to sink my teeth further into this one. :D
 
A

AColdDay

Member
mre said:
This thread has encouraged me to replay through the series, though I'm going in chronological order, rather than order of the games being published. Just started Origins tonight and made it all the way up to Lake Botein. Can't wait to sink my teeth further into this one. :D
Click to expand...

I loved Origins, but had rented the original prior to that and didn't like it. This thread makes me want to give the original another shot, but I don't think it really deserves one to be honest.
 
M

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
mre said:
This thread has encouraged me to replay through the series, though I'm going in chronological order, rather than order of the games being published. Just started Origins tonight and made it all the way up to Lake Botein. Can't wait to sink my teeth further into this one. :D
Click to expand...

The way BKO is written, it's meant to be played AFTER BK1.
BKO is a prequel. BK1 is not a sequel.
If you get what I mean.
 
K

Kishgal

Banned
jred250 said:
I loved Origins, but had rented the original prior to that and didn't like it. This thread makes me want to give the original another shot, but I don't think it really deserves one to be honest.
Click to expand...
That's kind of how I felt. I didn't like BK1 at all, but I can't remember why. I liked BKO, except for the annoying issue I described earlier in the thread. I just started BKO again, and I'm already enjoying it a little more than last time I think, so things are looking good.

Maybe someday I'll try BK1 again... I really hope I'm not missing too much by just playing BKO.
 
W

wrowa

Member
Mejilan said:
The way BKO is written, it's meant to be played AFTER BK1.
BKO is a prequel. BK1 is not a sequel.
If you get what I mean.
Click to expand...
He is only replaying the games, so why should it matter?

The only problem I see is that it's hard to go back to BK1's slow battle system after BKO's fast one. That's actually the problem I am facing currently, because I started to replay BK1 after I've had finished BKO. Well, it didn't really work :lol

Kishgal said:
Maybe someday I'll try BK1 again... I really hope I'm not missing too much by just playing BKO.
Click to expand...
Some nuances of the story aren't explained as in-depth as they are in BK1 and you will miss all of the cameo appearances, but apart of that you are only spoiling minor parts of BK1's story to you. If you don't want to play BK1 anyway, that shouldn't be such a huge problem.
 
L

Lionheart1827

Member
wrowa said:
He is only replaying the games, so why should it matter?

The only problem I see is that it's hard to go back to BK1's slow battle system after BKO's fast one. That's actually the problem I am facing currently, because I started to replay BK1 after I've had finished BKO. Well, it didn't really work :lol


Some nuances of the story aren't explained as in-depth as they are in BK1 and you will miss all of the cameo appearances, but apart of that you are only spoiling minor parts of BK1's story to you. If you don't want to play BK1 anyway, that shouldn't be such a huge problem.
Click to expand...

Yeah there are nuances that the player will miss, but I think the biggest standpoint is playing BK1 and then going to Origins and seening how much "purer" the world was before the entire world was starting to become fully mechanized. Example would be the imperial city. In origins it has a lot of trees and greenery, but by BK1 its completely machinery. Very cool touches.

Also, it seems as though
Hasseleh from Origins became that abandoned floating continent in BK1. I always thought that was pretty cool.

Honestly, its really hard to go back to BK1 after playing origins, but if you HAVENT played both, start with BK1 and then go to Origins. To me the whole story is totally worth it.
 
W

wrowa

Member
Lionheart1827 said:
Honestly, its really hard to go back to BK1 after playing origins, but if you HAVENT played both, start with BK1 and then go to Origins. To me the whole story is totally worth it.
Click to expand...
He said he didn't like what he was playing of BK1, so actually I don't think that it is worth it for him. If you like to play BK1 then it's a great idea to play it first, but if you don't: why bother? Playing a game you don't like that much for 50 hours only to be able enjoy the sequel a bit more... No, I don't think that's worth it. Especially since playing BK1 first also has one disadvantage: since BKO reuses most of BK1's cities and dungeons you already know huge parts of the game.

And actually, I think the things you mentioned have the same effect on people who played BKO first - just the other way around.
 
L

Lionheart1827

Member
wrowa said:
He said he didn't like what he was playing of BK1, so actually I don't think that it is worth it for him. If you like to play BK1 then it's a great idea to play it first, but if you don't: why bother? Playing a game you don't like that much for 50 hours only to be able enjoy the sequel a bit more... No, I don't think that's worth it. Especially since playing BK1 first also has one disadvantage: since BKO reuses most of BK1's cities and dungeons you already know huge parts of the game.

And actually, I think the things you mentioned have the same effect on people who played BKO first - just the other way around.
Click to expand...

I know what he was saying, I was generalizing to people who havent played either game at all. :D

I cant imagine going from origins battle system and then going to bk1s, it would be torture, total downgrade.
 
S

Sadist

Member
I started today with replaying Baten Kaitos and I forgot how awesome the music is. The forest at the beginning of the game has some fantastic music.
 
K

Kishgal

Banned
Well, I'm willing to try BK1 again someday. I just don't own it, so I can't put BKO aside to play it now, and I'm already into BKO and stuff. Like I said, I can't even remember what it was I didn't like about it. It's been so long.

Really enjoying BKO, though.
 
L

Lionheart1827

Member
Sadist said:
I started today with replaying Baten Kaitos and I forgot how awesome the music is. The forest at the beginning of the game has some fantastic music.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, Sakuraba did an excellent job on both of the games soundtracks.
 
W

wrowa

Member
Le Ali Del Principio wasn't mentioned anywhere enough in this thread. The best track Sakuraba has ever done, if you ask me.

MoxManiac said:
Sakuraba does an excellent job on every soundtrack he does.
Click to expand...
Well, if one ignores that he makes the absolutely mediocre Tales OSTs, maybe...
 
C

charlequin

Banned
MoxManiac said:
Sakuraba does an excellent job on every soundtrack he does.
Click to expand...

That is an unbelievable lie. I don't know of any provably-skilled composer with as many terrible soundtracks released under their name as Sakuraba. :lol
 
W

wrowa

Member
milkyjay20 said:
can you turn the voice acting off in this game?
Click to expand...
You can turn off the voice acting in both BK1 and BKO. If you want to play BK1 it's a great idea to turn the voice acting off, since it's absolutely horrible. There aren't many reasons to turn off the great voice acting of BKO, though.
 
D

Dragona Akehi

Retired
charlequin said:
In BKO, armor is completely fucking useless.
Click to expand...

Not for when you are fighting
Guillo
. Equipping
Dark Armours
on characters not currently attacking (Relay Comboing that boss was a bad idea) saved my butt.
 
W

wrowa

Member
The ultimate butt-savers in BKO are
mountain apples
, anyway. These small and innocence things are - quite unexpectedly - completely imba :lol
 
P

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
wrowa said:
You can turn off the voice acting in both BK1 and BKO. If you want to play BK1 it's a great idea to turn the voice acting off, since it's absolutely horrible. There aren't many reasons to turn off the great voice acting of BKO, though.
Click to expand...

There was something you could do in the options that made the voices a little better for BK1...still not GOOD, but better. I forget what it was though, taking off some echo effect.

wrowa said:
The ultimate butt-savers in BKO are
mountain apples
, anyway. These small and innocence things are - quite unexpectedly - completely imba :lol
Click to expand...

And yeah, these saved my life
for the start of disk 2 that a lot of people got stuck on. You could literally stockpile on a ton of them right before leaving to the jungle, and it made the battle so much easier.
 
L

Lionheart1827

Member
Papercuts said:
There was something you could do in the options that made the voices a little better for BK1...still not GOOD, but better. I forget what it was though, taking off some echo effect.
Click to expand...

I believe changing the sound setting from surround to stereo or something. I think it was one of those things that helped, but it doesnt fix the terrible voice acting. :D
 
T

TunaLover

Member
In BKO
I used a deck with only bombs to rank up in colliseum, bombs/fate cordial/HP restoring items :lol , I remember having like three different decks, building decks was pretty usefull, more if you lack of experience at the moment of defeat a boss, having a fire desk against water boss made a world of difference when you take in account the specific effects.
 
M

MoxManiac

Member
charlequin said:
That is an unbelievable lie. I don't know of any provably-skilled composer with as many terrible soundtracks released under their name as Sakuraba. :lol
Click to expand...

He's been great in every game i've played. BK1 and 2, and the valkyrie profile games. I remember liking Radiata's soundtrack as well.

I don't play the shitty Tales series for what it's worth, so I don't know if his work is crappy there or not.
 
A

AColdDay

Member
TunaLover said:
In BKO
I used a deck with only bombs to rank up in colliseum, bombs/fate cordial/HP restoring items :lol , I remember having like three different decks, building decks was pretty usefull, more if you lack of experience at the moment of defeat a boss, having a fire desk against water boss made a world of difference when you take in account the specific effects.
Click to expand...

What I hated about that was how often you would have to update a deck and remove all the old and busted fire sword cards for blaze sword cards. Then you would have to update the specials and it quickly became tedious. I would just change my current deck to whatever the situation called for, because decks would quickly become outdated.

I also lament the lack of a true new game+ option. I would have gone through origins another time if it had one.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
MoxManiac said:
He's been great in every game i've played. BK1 and 2, and the valkyrie profile games. I remember liking Radiata's soundtrack as well.

I don't play the shitty Tales series for what it's worth, so I don't know if his work is crappy there or not.
Click to expand...

Ohhhh. Well, there you go. :lol

Let's just say that I wouldn't put my name on the soundtrack of most of the Tales series.
 
M

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Just thought I'd post a quick update. Just beat the Holoholo bird on my first try. I remember this battle being a lot harder than it was this time around, but I think I only had one party member even get KO'd. What a great damn game.

The way BKO is written, it's meant to be played AFTER BK1.
BKO is a prequel. BK1 is not a sequel.
If you get what I mean.
Click to expand...

I completely get you, but since I'm replaying both the games, I didn't think this would make too much of a difference for me.
 
F

Freyjadour

Member
Finally found a Wavebird at a price I didn't mind and in a quality that didn't make me reconsider spending $75 on a sealed last-gen controller.

Thus, I shall embark upon new playthrough of BK1 tonight and after that BK:O. Such good games.
 
S

sphinx

the piano man
Nice for you.

This thread makes me a bit sad, since it is a reminder that BK will never come back again in any shpae or form.

Anyway, I always wanted to know.

The most difficult beast in the colliseum, is it supposed to be
a failed experiment on shanath, savyna's father[/B] it kinda looked similar.

and my way to beat the damned beast was.. lol the DEATH CARD! it was awesome, pretty fast.
 
M

Mockingbird

Member
I was randomly poking around gamefaqs today when I noticed in the cheats section that a Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean save file is needed in order to unlock a sidequest in Baten Kaitos Origins.

Holy Shit! That's awesome! I used the same memory card for both games anyways -- as I'm sure most people did and did the sidequest way back then -- but that's a pretty neat thing. It's kind of crazy that no one figured out till fairly recently, how the sidequest was unlocked. I actually heard news about having a Baten 1 save file unlocking something in Baten Origins around the time of Baten Origin's release, but no one knew what it was and I think it was tossed out as an unconfirmed rumor. It's also a cool unlock, I suppose because unless you played the first game you wouldn't understand the story behind the sidequest.

The sidequest I'm referring to btw, is the
Heartflask sidequest
.
 
M

Mockingbird

Member
vol03_img_3_1.jpg


I wish I could have that as my desktop.
 
W

wrowa

Member
Never heard of that sidequest and sadly my BK1 saves are on another memory card than my BKO saves. What a shame.

And what is that picture?
 
M

MoxManiac

Member
You know, reading through this thread, what is it about card game-esq elements that turns people off so much? Coming from a M:TG background (one of the best designed games i've ever played in my life, tabletop or video) I never had a problem with it in BK.
 
T

TunaLover

Member
I download a BK save from GameFAQs, and inject it to my GCN memory card, Homebrew stuff, the flak sidequest wasn´t nothing really special, not that I remember...
 
Malio

Malio

Member
I actually had put this up and then got 'Culdcept Saga' for the 360 and was like "YAY! another card based game!" What a hard ass game. Got frustrated and shelved it.

So I went back to BK:O again a couple weeks ago and am loving it. I'm about 9-10 hours in now and I am falling in love with it all over again.
 
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