Napoleonthechimp
Member
What the hell are you talking about? The actors work from the material and directions that the showrunners give them.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 4 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Red Arremer
Member
Again, the rape of Cersei was, at least, partly done to show that Jaime still loves her, that he still wants her and nobody else. She's been denying him for weeks since his return, their relation has changed for Cersei, but not for Jaime. He went through getting captured, murdering his cousin, losing his hand, and kept his spirits up because he wanted to get back to Cersei. That his love and desire for her make him forget all those things he experienced on his path of redemption. That's why he says "Why did the gods make me love such a hateful woman".
The books have a much easier time to deliver how he feels for her, but it's much more difficult in the show.
I think that the criticism on Jaime's arc is overblown a bit. It's not like that scene in the books was 100% consensual (from the start at least), either.
The books have a much easier time to deliver how he feels for her, but it's much more difficult in the show.
I think that the criticism on Jaime's arc is overblown a bit. It's not like that scene in the books was 100% consensual (from the start at least), either.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Okay. Let's say, for argument's sake, that none of us have read the books. From what we've seen of Jaime so far, he is a good guy who is completely misunderstood. His scene with Brienne in the bath highlights this point. There's a moment when he stops letting his past define him, and acts with kindness and understanding. When he realizes he has nothing left after losing his hand, his character changes. He goes from hero to zero in the course of a few episodes, and the viewer really feels for him.
This is the point I was trying to make. He has no skills, no lover, and no confidence. He turns to doing what he can through Brienne, and the viewer comes to appreciate him as a man who has done bad things, but is trying to change that. With this rape scene, all of that progress is gone. He's not a changed man; he's the same person who pushed Bran out the tower. He's back to where he started.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Well, that's your opinion and the opinion of many other people.
But again, I really believe D&D subscribe to the school of character development not swinging clearly in one direction. They like to see their characters take some steps back before moving forward.
This was already an element prevalent for many of Martin's characters, and D&D clearly embrace that and want to highlight it even more.
Here's how I see it...
I love Jaime in the books, but I've always had in my mind "he attempted to murder Bran". It doesn't make me find his character any less interesting.
For Jaime in the show, I will continue to keep in mind what he did with Bran, how he killed his cousin, how he took Cersei by force... but it won't make me look past his good deeds as well.
Either way, Jaime is complex character, and if you want embrace him, you have to accept the shitty things he is capable of.
Similarly, Theon is one of my favorite characters. But I know that many book readers will always despise him for his more despicable acts.
I guess I'm just more open to embrace characters willing to do shitty things than the average reader. But even if you change the alter scene to be purely consensual, there is still a lot of blackness in Jaime that you must always be mindful of when embracing his character.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Explain to me the character of The Hound. As per the show he has a soft spot for female wolves but everybody else can go screw themselves? Or is he harsh realist teaching Arya that it's a dog eat dog world and you must do whatever to survive. In TWO SWORDS, I think they should have shown the old man as having literally nothing just to hammer home the point that no amount of hay carrying was going to save him come winter
Cornballer
Member
Folks, just a reminder that as we dig into discussion of a contentious subject, please make sure that you're addressing arguments when trying to debate your position and not attacking anyone you disagree with. This is very much a discussion worth having, just keep it civil while we're engaging. Thanks.
Not really...he wouldn't have raped Cersei at that point in time. Jaime at this point has almost nothing. No legacy and no real future. He may have cleaned up but he lost the one thing he thought he had left so he tries to take it by force. This isn't a +/- Karma system.
theignoramus
Member
The scenes with Tarly and Gilly are a bore, not least because that character is such a snivelling, awkward whiner. Its a very accurate depiction of the way Tarly's written in the books, but he's an annoying character to sit through all the same.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
In the show, it is. Viewers don't have the liberty of understanding Jaime's thoughts or inner motives. Character development relies on action in television, and this one serves no real purpose in furthering Jaime's arc.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Indeed, it's important to keep in mind the timing of when Jaime returns in the books compared to the show.
In the books, the scene is their first meeting.
In the show, Jaime had already returned a couple of months prior, and Cersei had been rejecting all of his advances.
Who is to say that "Book Jaime" wouldn't have also lost it if he had finally returned home, only to be totally denied the woman he loves in every form. I can only imagine the inner turmoil and crisis that would be boiling inside Jaime.
Remember, this is all prior to when he has a falling out with Cersei in his own heart.
In the books, the scene is their first meeting.
In the show, Jaime had already returned a couple of months prior, and Cersei had been rejecting all of his advances.
Who is to say that "Book Jaime" wouldn't have also lost it if he had finally returned home, only to be totally denied the woman he loves in every form. I can only imagine the inner turmoil and crisis that would be boiling inside Jaime.
Remember, this is all prior to when he has a falling out with Cersei in his own heart.
None of us know what Jaime's arc is with two books left. For all we know he completely loses heart and gets resurrected as the Night's King #2.
It's probably worth noting that, had they gone the route of the books, and made it rape that she consents to midway through the act, that the ensuing shitstorm might have been even more ridiculous. Could you imagine the ensuing Tumblr storm if they had a woman start getting raped and then consent / give up in the middle of it to the "good" guy?
I think they are trying to make the point very hard that Jaime is NOT a "good" character. The acting in the show has made many like Jaime, even though we are not supposed to really like him. They might have used a sledgehammer in this scene rather than using a hammer, but in their defense, the hammer was very obviously not working. People saw him on this redemptive arc, and are equating it to every other television show they've ever seen where once the bad guy starts redeeming himself / herself, they never do anything bad again.
That said, people are responding in a bad way, as rather than being upset at the character, they are upset at the writers. Modern meta-television, I suppose.
If the murdering of major characters on a regular basis has not driven home that GoT does not play by typical TVTropes rules, I'm not sure what else will.
I think they are trying to make the point very hard that Jaime is NOT a "good" character. The acting in the show has made many like Jaime, even though we are not supposed to really like him. They might have used a sledgehammer in this scene rather than using a hammer, but in their defense, the hammer was very obviously not working. People saw him on this redemptive arc, and are equating it to every other television show they've ever seen where once the bad guy starts redeeming himself / herself, they never do anything bad again.
That said, people are responding in a bad way, as rather than being upset at the character, they are upset at the writers. Modern meta-television, I suppose.
If the murdering of major characters on a regular basis has not driven home that GoT does not play by typical TVTropes rules, I'm not sure what else will.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Absolutely, yes. But at this moment, based on what we know, the scene is damaging to who he is and how he is viewed by the audience.
If they just wanted to remind everyone how fucked Jaime still is, they could have had him murder a septon that walks in on them. That's definitely something Jaime would do. I didn't mind the Hound robbing that poor dude or the wildlings slaughtering that village because it fits their characters (well, the portrayal of wildlings on this show have been wrong from the start, so it's at least consistent). I guess they assume people will shrug it off later because "who cares, it's Cersei, she's horrible", but it's definitely inconsistent with both the book and show portrayal of Jaime thus far. Looks like a change made for shock value purposes alone.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Again, you continue to make the assumption that a character arc must only move in one direction, or else it "serves no purpose".
There is absolutely a purpose to a character taking a step forward and taking a step back. It's because these are fully-fleshed out, three dimensional characters. They are capable of doing good things and bad things and good things.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
In the end after reading all the interviews and such, I think it wasn't meant to be rape, I personally don't think it was though there were obviously rape vibes, but in the end I don't blame either side because the execution of the scene wasn't as good as it could be.
They made the mistake of watching the footage and and not realizing that although they can see what they're getting at, viewers may not be able to. They didn't put themselves in the viewers shoes on this one so the execution was questionable.
They made the mistake of watching the footage and and not realizing that although they can see what they're getting at, viewers may not be able to. They didn't put themselves in the viewers shoes on this one so the execution was questionable.
And next week he's going to presumably present Brienne with a custom suit of armor and his sword, made from Ned Stark's own, now named "Oathbreaker," and tell her to find and protect Sansa. And presumably viewers will be like "Well that's a very noble thing he is doing, I'm conflicted because this is a good thing but Jaime just did something bad last week."
My question is, is it bad for people to feel conflicted about him as a character at this point in time?
The inside the episode I linked on the last page suggests the showrunners knew and intended it would be seen as Jaime forcing himself on her, and that it is intended to be a horrible and uncomfortable scene.
I think you should stop worrying about what imaginary people think.
After watching this, I have two main things to say.
1. Charles Dance as Tywin is the best casting on this show. He absolutely NAILS his part. His scene with Tommen was amazing. He is so good in this role, to the point where I am going to be so disappointed when Tyrion kills him because he's such a dynamic presence on the show. He makes him so likable because he's such a badass.
2. Aiden Gillen as Littlefinger is killing one of my other favorite characters. Oh my god, Im so sick of him. The "Only Cat" scene is my favorite in the book and I know it won't be the same because he'll ruin it. Not to mention what made it so cool was that despite how slimy he was, this was his biggest act of evil by far and it was pretty terrifying. His voice (which changes every season) is so cartoony evil now that it won't pack any punch when he does this. Even if they do everything amazing in that scene, the impact will be lost, because of how badly Littlefinger has played the character. I wish so hard that they had recasted him. Im not a fan of the show casting for Daneerys or Jon but I never liked them anyways so I don't care. Littlefinger's actor is destroying his character
1. Charles Dance as Tywin is the best casting on this show. He absolutely NAILS his part. His scene with Tommen was amazing. He is so good in this role, to the point where I am going to be so disappointed when Tyrion kills him because he's such a dynamic presence on the show. He makes him so likable because he's such a badass.
2. Aiden Gillen as Littlefinger is killing one of my other favorite characters. Oh my god, Im so sick of him. The "Only Cat" scene is my favorite in the book and I know it won't be the same because he'll ruin it. Not to mention what made it so cool was that despite how slimy he was, this was his biggest act of evil by far and it was pretty terrifying. His voice (which changes every season) is so cartoony evil now that it won't pack any punch when he does this. Even if they do everything amazing in that scene, the impact will be lost, because of how badly Littlefinger has played the character. I wish so hard that they had recasted him. Im not a fan of the show casting for Daneerys or Jon but I never liked them anyways so I don't care. Littlefinger's actor is destroying his character
I re-read the part of the chapter where they have sex and I don't really agree with "rape that she consents to midway". She worries about them getting caught, puts up the least amount of playful resistance she can, and then immediately goes into "yes, do me, quickly now Jaime". She also kisses him first and there's a line about how she is always making him initiate things. It's very clearly supposed to be a consensual and intimate moment, IMO.
HyruleGuardian
Member
I tend to love the cast, and I definitely agree with you on Charles Dance.
But unfortunately... I also have to somewhat agree with you on Littlefinger. That casting always felt wrong to me. Littlefinger should be a much more subtle evil... not a mustache-twirling villain. It's unfortunate. Certainly the character is very different from how he is portrayed in the books, at least with how he carries himself if not his actual motivations. Having said all of that, I won't go as far to say the show ruined Littlefinger's character. I still find his scenes very entertaining to watch.
Red Arremer
Member
I thought Littlefinger's scenes in seasons 1 and 2 were great to decent, but since season 3 he's been really on the decline, which is a shame, because I absolutely love the character, and think the actor definitely has the looks for it.
ToyMachine228
Member
I disagree with the point about D&D's development style. Dany has been portrayed solely as strong, morally pure and badass ever since she came into her own after her marriage to Drogo. Not one hint of self doubt. And thats why I absolutely hate her on the show. She always gets the spotlight, always does "good", is essentially portayed as invulnerable and has the persona of a beautiful and intelligent Terminator unit standing on high ground and morality. In a world of flawed characters, she has been portayed again and again as "better" than everything and everyone.
I also disagree with your point about Theon. Despite what he did to the Starks, I think a lot of people come to sympathize with him eventually, even if in the back of your mind youre still upset about his betrayal.
real_slime
Banned
As corny as Aiden Gillen's performance, I kinda like him. Maybe it's just cos I've been familiar with him for a long time from The Wire and enjoyed his character there (although people criticised his acting back then, too), but I'm generally entertained when he's onscreen. Game of Thrones has made a lot of weird changes and decisions over its run so far, so I can look past the accent change at least. Just vocalising a little support for him, as corny as he is.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Look at the family he comes from. Feeling conflicted about his behaviour comes with the territory.
He is nothing of the sort. Joffrey was a straight-up villain, Littlefinger is just highly ambitious and will only act against others when it is in his best interests to do so.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I fail to see how rape, of all the things he could have done, serves the purpose of bringing him one step forward and one step back. It sets him completely back. Rape is an act of power, and Jaime isn't power hungry like Cersei is. He's not the Mountain, who enjoys the suffering and anguish of others. It doesn't fit him, at all. The changes to the scene are what "serve no purpose". They do not further his development in any way.
I suggest you go take a look at some of the discussions in the Unsullied thread.
Anton Sugar
Member
*high five* on all points.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
It was a let down. In the book wasn't it basically angry sex and they both felt bad afterwards? Pretty much the last fling of their relationship.
Yep. For a lot of people it knee caps his entire arc and labels him as a rapist and nothing else. It puts him in a group with a lot of the show's real monsters like The Mountain and Vargo Hoat.
Moff
Member
finally watched it
what an amazing episode, full of great moments, was it ever in the books what tywin thougt about the dragons? I loved that scene. dany in valyrian was sexy as hell as usual. kit harrington has become much more enjoyable, too. and what I love most is that the show at last doesnt feel small and narrow anymore, the budget seems to have gotten quite a raise, mereen was glorious, and I cant wait for the battle at the wall. I really expected episodes 3 to 5 to be some kind of a drag, but 3 was really, really good.
I didnt care much about jaimes rape scene after reading so much about it before, after the directors comment, they definitely seem to have failed on what they wanted to show. because that clearly wasnt consent.
still, it didnt bother me that much, I am curious about where this is going though.
what an amazing episode, full of great moments, was it ever in the books what tywin thougt about the dragons? I loved that scene. dany in valyrian was sexy as hell as usual. kit harrington has become much more enjoyable, too. and what I love most is that the show at last doesnt feel small and narrow anymore, the budget seems to have gotten quite a raise, mereen was glorious, and I cant wait for the battle at the wall. I really expected episodes 3 to 5 to be some kind of a drag, but 3 was really, really good.
I didnt care much about jaimes rape scene after reading so much about it before, after the directors comment, they definitely seem to have failed on what they wanted to show. because that clearly wasnt consent.
still, it didnt bother me that much, I am curious about where this is going though.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Just because D&D like this approach to character development doesn't mean they have to use the same exact tactic with EVERY character. That would be silly.
And on Dany specifically... I'm not sure what you would have wanted them to do to show more ambiguity... You can certainly make the case that her betrayal as Astapor is morally ambiguous, you can make the case that her taking on an army of slave soldiers with the ultimate purpose of winning power is morally ambiguous.
Dany will have hard choices to make in the next seasons. Let's see how it plays out.
But again, D&D don't need to approach all characters in the same way. Just because many characters are morally grey, and are capable of both good and bad, doesn't mean that every character need be like this. They don't need to show Ramsay being generous. They don't need to show Davos being terrible. Some people and characters tend to be more consistently good or bad, others show tendencies of both.
I've read the books as well as you have. And while I certainly wouldn't say Dany is "pure" good... in my mind her character leans much more in that direction than Jaime's does. And I say this as someone who LOVES book Jaime's character, and is more "meh" on Dany's character.
And yes, I agree many people do feel sympathy for Theon. I was merely making the point that there are also many book readers who never will.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
It gives the viewer a hint at just how powerless Jaime feels after seeing his son die before him, and after (presumed) weeks of rejection from Cersei who he has killed and broken vows for.
Or he simply didn't see it as rape, in which case it was an act of lust and not an attempt to make him feel powerful.
Either way, it portrays him as a broken man, which I personally think is a more interesting subject for a redemption arc than someone who's simply on an upwards trajectory.
real_slime
Banned
Yeah, I'm with you on what you've been saying wherearemahdragonz
This thread is far more obsessed with it than that one is.
Yea I agree, littlefinger is a subtle evil. Until the end of Book 3. That's what makes it so great.
Luckily they're nailing varys, so his similar moment at the end of Book 5 will actually work.
But I just can't see his scene with Lysa at the end of Book 3 packing the same punch as the book because that actually IS an over-the-top villain moment, and in the show he's already there
Luckily they're nailing varys, so his similar moment at the end of Book 5 will actually work.
But I just can't see his scene with Lysa at the end of Book 3 packing the same punch as the book because that actually IS an over-the-top villain moment, and in the show he's already there
Yeah, Littlefinger is WAY too moustache twirly, especially the way he was slithering around Sansa as he escorted her off the deck of the ship. The director should have had him greet her and escort her off the deck in a hushed, but reassuring manner. And once they're out of sight is when the bowmen kill Dontos. You don't even see him get hit, you just see the bowmen fire their crossbows downward and maybe the sound of Dontos thudding as he falls. Then cut away.
HyruleGuardian
Member
You're generalizing rape as "an act of power", but the way it plays out for Jaime is actually an act of weakness. Cersei is his everything. It's unimaginable to him at this point that she couldn't be his. So what he did what an act of desperation. I don't see it as deviating from his overall character arc.
I don't think that Jaime's redemption has to be smooth sailing. But this is not a step back but 3 steps back. And it potentially damages further storylines as mentioned when Jaime burns Cersei's letter. It's a huge moment for Jaime when he realizes that Cersei never loved him the way he loved her. Now, if the realization comes it's more like can you blame
her?
There are other ways they could have explored Jaime's arc (and Cersei's) without having to resort to rape. Especially since it was not in the book. I'm not sure where they'll go from here.
her?
There are other ways they could have explored Jaime's arc (and Cersei's) without having to resort to rape. Especially since it was not in the book. I'm not sure where they'll go from here.
In the show, the changes to the scene serve as a reminder to who the character of Jaime is. It serves a very different purpose than the equivalent scene in the book.
As far as the unsullied thread, let's see what they say after next weeks episode, or the week after, or when the season is done, or when we catch up to where the books are. This is an evolving process.
As a point of wildly different comparison, I remember a lot of people in the book thread last year complaining about the guest rights during the Red Wedding, how they didn't really explain it adequately even though they showed it, and that show only watchers likely wouldn't understand the significance and that the showrunners really botched it. Well, lo and behold, in last night's episode there is an entire scene with the Hound and Arya where they are discussing the Red Wedding, and how the Frey's broke guest right and how that is very important for certain people, and that family is surely cursed now. Similar things have happened numerous times throughout the series up to this point, where the show explains things in a different place than the books, or at a different pace, and book readers get all worried that show watchers will be too confused, only for the show to explain it in the next episode or next season.
My point being that the show is doing its own thing at its own pace, and will explain things to the audience when it thinks it appropriate. They don't need to develop Jaime in the same way at the same pace as the books, and show watchers don't need to feel the same way about the characters that we felt when reading the books.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Huh? Are you saying that Littlefinger is not a more subtle evil in the books? Confused by the way you wrote that.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Maybe they'll figure out something new for the show?
Give them some credit, they're done a pretty terrific job so far.
In the book he arrived at King's Landing, went to the sept where Cersei was mourning Joff, and they had passionate sex (not against the altar where Joff's body rested) after he surprised her with the fact that he was alive.
I'd post the portion of the chapter that is pertinent to the discussion, but that'd probably be frowned upon. It's ASOS Chapter 62 if you're interested.
demosthenes
Member
I loved everything about the Tommen scene especially when thinking about Varys speec to Kevan when he killed him.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I will always refute the notion that Baelish is evil. I think that label is a little too hyperbolic, and it greatly oversimplifies his character.
See above.
I don't think he's remotely in the same league as characters like Joffrey, Gregor Clegane and others of that ilk. Those people are straight up fucked in the head and seemed to take sadistic pleasure in the things that they did. That, to me at least, is what I consider to be evil.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Exactly. 1000 golden like buttons to this post.
Bookers readers often do not give D&D room to breathe with how they tell the story.
I mean, I get it. It's the weekly episode format. And then we have to wait 10 months for the next season to start. It's impossible to actually expect people to be patient with how they tell the story.
But as you said, this episode comes only a few episodes after the Red Wedding... even though to most people it seems like forever ago. One day, all of this will be a non-issue for the binge watcher who views the whole show only after its completion. But patience can be very difficult in the format of getting 55 minutes per week, 10 weeks per year.
Give D&D time to tell the story. I believe their decisions will seem far more sensible to people who are outraged about this in due time.
theignoramus
Member
I wasnt all that perturbed by that awkward sex scene. Jaime is a morally confused son of a bitch. I dont really care that this throws a fork in the road of his path of redemption, the man is capable of heroism and pure villainy and that scene just serves as a reminder of it. I guess the writers want viewers to know that at this point in time Jaime isnt the reformed man theyve been seeing for a dozen episodes.
I feel like people are mostly upset about Cersei coming off like the victim in that encounter, when in the books, she's the lying, scheming, corrupting whore in nearly every exchange.
I feel like people are mostly upset about Cersei coming off like the victim in that encounter, when in the books, she's the lying, scheming, corrupting whore in nearly every exchange.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
It depends how you define evil.
Many people would consider a person who is willing to instigate a continent-wide war in order to achieve their own ends to be "evil".
Others will see this as morally ambiguous.
But Littlefinger is certainly not a sadist like Joffrey or Ramsay.
So to each their own. But that's the beauty of this series and its characters.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Because we know their internal thoughts. The Unsullied thread has none of that insight. They don't know the difference between the book and the show.
How is rape NOT an act of power? This isn't Jaime being weak; if it was, it would have played out like it did in the book. This is Jaime being fed up with Cersei, and forcing himself on her even when she keeps saying "No, stop, Jaime, don't do this." Yes, an act of desperation, perhaps, but one that is forced on his sister without her consent.
He says "I don't care, I don't care." He doesn't care about Cersei saying no, he is trying to force her to love him like she once did.
HyruleGuardian
Member
You can define rape as being inherently as an act of power, I'm merely saying that it's coming from a place of weakness within Jaime.
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