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trembli0s · Sep 23, 2017

Valhelm said:
What would be the repercussions of an immediate Catalan EU bid?

That was discussed during the Scottish independence referendum if I remember correctly

The problem is that an immediate bid will be met by an immediate veto from the Spanish national governnent. There is no situation that allows for a quick-fix trade agreement really. Not one that is politically feasible, anyway. The Germans and the French aren't interested in having more microstates in the EU, particularly when it destabilizes core members of the EU like Spain or Italy.

Relaxed Muscle said:
The thing is, we aren't more important than UK, but we are key in Spain, Catalonia will have to undergo a huge crisis for years if we go independence? Yeah, but Spain as well, with a debt of already 100%+ of the GDP, Spain will fall into his worst recesion ever, shaking the grounds of the UE, basically a several times worse Greece crisis.

Do you really think Spain is going to let Catalonia walk without taking any of the debt? That alone is going to take years to haggle over and will delay any type of EU accession. That's not even counting the number of social services that will be dramatically cut across Catalonia and Spain while the economy contracts in both.

Look I'm a half-Spaniard living in the US. I am fine with people voting whatever they want but a lot of people are being misled about the consequences of their vote. If folks want Brexit, that's fine, just make sure everyone knows what is going to happen.

hans_castorp · Sep 23, 2017

Relaxed Muscle said:
Franquismo == fascism

So those are "franquistas"

No, of course not, neither is Trump a fascist *wink* *wink*

You havent answer my question. Do you truly think we live in a facist regime?
The ones who broke the laws here were Puigdemont & Friends.
Rajoy is playing hard for his base to hide all his corruption shit.

turmoil · Sep 23, 2017

hans_castorp said:
Do you really think modern Spain has a fascist or authoritarian regime?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2013/06/spain-blocks-investigations-franco-era-crimes/

It certainly likes impunity.

If this referendum sets change in motion, good riddance

Relaxed Muscle · Sep 23, 2017

hans_castorp said:
You havent answer my question. Do you truly think we live in a facist regime?
The ones who broke the laws here were Puigdemont & Friends.
Rajoy is playing hard for his base to hide all his corruption shit.

I think I answered the question: We have a fascist party/leader in the democratic goverment, with facists in position of power.

We are in a country with fascist-like laws ("Ley mordaza") with laughable separation of power. They are applying article 155 in shadow (now they want to control Catalonian police)

Ppl are defying laws that are unfair and are not wanted. The current constitution is no longer viable and needs to be changed, the goverment focing it's application agaisnt ppl will is not much different from what's happening in Venezuela.

trembli0s said:
Do you really think Spain is going to let Catalonia walk without taking any of the debt? That alone is going to take years to haggle over and will delay any type of EU accession. That's not even counting the number of social services that will be dramatically cut across Catalonia and Spain while the economy contracts in both.

Look I'm a half-Spaniard living in the US. I am fine with people voting whatever they want but a lot of people are being misled about the consequences of their vote. If folks want Brexit, that's fine, just make sure everyone knows what is going to happen.

Do you think Mexico will pay for the wall?

How are they gonna force us? By force? And is not only Catalonia debt in question here, the whole region represents like 23% of the GDP of Spain.

It will be devastating, economically, for both sides.

Relaxed Muscle · Sep 23, 2017

intheinbetween · Sep 23, 2017

Onyar said:
Yes, and I'm saying that even UK is a much bigger economy, for Europe it's more important Catalonia because the industrial structure.

You have to be kidding or maybe you just have delusions of grandeur

hans_castorp · Sep 23, 2017

turmoil said:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2013/06/spain-blocks-investigations-franco-era-crimes/

If this referendum sets change in motion, good riddance

PP blocking Franquismo investigations is nothing new and a disgrace (make a guess, in which band do you think my grandparents died) . And believe me when I say I'm ashamed of having him as my president and cant understand how people keep voting him.
But you memory must be really short if you truly think that what we have now is a dictatorship. Our democracy is too young for people to have already forgot Franco.

If this referendum sets, it will be a greater mess than Brexit. For both Catalunya and Spain.

Catalunya had to been rescued by the goverment not that long ago. And I dont see how they will pay their health care system or pensions, when Catalunya alone is responsible of 25% of "Seguridad social" deficit.
Catalunya depends on the central goverment, even more than other regions.

Morat · Sep 23, 2017

Relaxed Muscle said:
Franquismo == fascism

So those are "franquistas"

No, of course not, neither is Trump a fascist *wink* *wink*

I would argue that Franquismo is more phalangist than fascist. Splitting hairs, I know, but perhaps a useful distinction given the plethora of hateful right wing cubts the worldnis currently dealing with.

hans_castorp · Sep 23, 2017

Relaxed Muscle said:
We are in a country with fascist-like laws ("Ley mordaza") with laughable separation of power. They are applying article 155 in shadow (now they want to control Catalonian police)

They dont want to control Los Mossos. They want to.make sure they don't help setting the Referendum. And technically, they can assume their control (Art. 46.2 de la Ley 2/1986).
And what happen yesterday when Police were unable to follow the judge resolution and The Mossos didnt help, was shameful.

I mean, you are aware why Trapero is in command, and why both Jané and Batlle were forced to quit this past summer .

Relaxed Muscle · Sep 23, 2017

hans_castorp said:
They dont want to control Los Mossos. They want to.make sure they don't help setting the Referendum. And technically, they can assume their control (Art. 46.2 de la Ley 2/1986).
And what happen yesterday when Police were unable to follow the judge resolution and The Mossos didnt help, was shameful.

They want to unify the command of the catalonian police under a Guardia Civil general, a fascist cop during the regime btw. If that's not seizing control of the police I don't know what you call it then...

And is the mossos that helped GC officials get out of the building....

Morat said:
I would argue that Franquismo is more phalangist than fascist. Splitting hairs, I know, but perhaps a useful distinction given the plethora of hateful right wing cubts the worldnis currently dealing with.

I mean, at the end phalangism (Falangism?) is another form of the italian fascism. Mid WWII Franco tried to distance itself from the common nomenclature of his regime (saying that the "Falange" it was a "movement" rather than a "party"), but it was just makeup...

Ahasverus · Sep 23, 2017

Please secede. Spanish government can go suck a dick.

Morat · Sep 23, 2017

Relaxed Muscle said:
They want to unify the command of the catalonian police under a Guardia Civil general, a fascist cop during the regime btw. If that's not seizing control of the police I don't know what you call it then...

And is the mossos that helped GC officials get out of the building....

I mean, at the end phalangism (Falangism?) is another form of the italian fascism. Mid WWII Franco tried to distance itself from the common nomenclature of his regime (saying that the "Falange" it was a "movement" rather than a "party"), but it was just makeup...

Oh indeed, and I'm not defending the Spanish government's handling of the situation - the seizure of control over the police force I find particularly egregious.

Edit - apparently the Church is siding with the Generalitat
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/22/actualidad/1506110851_740141.html

turmoil · Sep 23, 2017

hans_castorp said:
But you memory must be really short if you truly think that what we have now is a dictatorship. Our democracy is too young for people to have already forgot Franco.

If this referendum sets, it will be a greater mess than Brexit. For both Catalunya and Spain.

I don't think that Spain is a dictatorship, and I agree on independence being a economic catastrophe for both sides, but if a independent catalonia means that it'll be a state that seeks justice instead of covering up franquism, I think it is a legetimate reason for catalonians to want to live in their own country. (I'm not Spanish btw)

hans_castorp · Sep 23, 2017

turmoil said:
I don't think that Spain is a dictatorship, and I agree on independence being a economic catastrophe for both sides, but if a independent catalonia means that it'll be a state that seeks justice instead of covering up franquism, I think it is a legetimate reason for catalonians to want to live in their own country. (I'm not Spanish btw)

Nah reasons for independence are messier than that. It doesnt really have to do with Franquismo, but Franco surely played a part on it banning the language.
Catalan people have plenty of reasons to feel aggravated and plenty of their complains are legit, but the way they have been doing things these past months is highly unconstitutional and antidemocratic.

Current independence surge started more as an effort from CiU to divert attention from its corruption scandals and social cuts. Artur Mas (the former president from the Generalitat) never was an hard independentist till surveys started showing he might lose next elections.

Then you have to add all the bullshit the PP has pulled (blocking the Estatut, boicot against Catalunya, the whole secret police scandal.. etc) and the incompetence from Rajoy at dealing with this mess.

Also mind The CUP, an extreme-left anticapitalist party allied with a hard right party, that basically just want to see the world burn.

ClosingADoor · Sep 23, 2017

Onyar said:
The european union tried to show strength to the world before the Brexit but they knew they lost a lot.
With an hypothetical Catalonia leaving means one of the four economical engines are off, the main difference between Catalonia and Britain is that Britan is an enormous financial power but Catalonia is one of the four high industrialized regions.

So the exit of Britan can be replaced by Europe with just normal offices at Frankfurt for example, otherwise the industrialized Catalonia will require more time and money to Europe to build these factories if they want to.
It should be a much smart move from Europe to retain Catalonia and don't spend a lot of money to create an alternative industrialized zone.

Onyar said:
Yes, and I'm saying that even UK is a much bigger economy, for Europe it's more important Catalonia because the industrial structure.

I just showed you the numbers. 255 billion (might be a bit more now) on a 16 trillion GDP. If you think that is somehow the thing that is going to hurt the EU, then we would have fallen apart by Brexit already. You are really fooling yourself if you think the EU is panicking over not having Catalonia in the union.

This is starting to sound a lot like Brexit. People are really thinking that their region or country is THE most important. It is not.

Like you said, one of four industrialized regions. Well, who do you think would be happy to pick up the slack if you guys leave? The other three.

Relaxed Muscle said:
Do you think Mexico will pay for the wall?

How are they gonna force us? By force? And is not only Catalonia debt in question here, the whole region represents like 23% of the GDP of Spain.

It will be devastating, economically, for both sides.

If Catalonia somehow breaks off from Spain and wants to rejoin the EU, Spain has a veto. So yes, they are going to force you if you don't want them to veto every talk with the EU.

turmoil · Sep 23, 2017

hans_castorp said:
.

Yes is more like a conundrum of smaller reasons, cooked long enough by inaction, with politicians benefiting from both sides.

Personally I prefer this to end in a full constitucional reform, PSOE lawmakers said something about reforming the territorial order of the country, but it is to be seen what that is about(I don't think offering more devolved powers would appease independentists), at least it opens the door to negotiations, but I don't have a lot of hope with PP, Ciudadanos and spineless PSOE holding the reins tbh

if there is violence the 1-O or afterwards, I put the biggest blame on the incompetence of Rajoy and his cronies.

Business · Sep 23, 2017

trembli0s said:
Look I'm a half-Spaniard living in the US. I am fine with people voting whatever they want but a lot of people are being misled about the consequences of their vote. If folks want Brexit, that's fine, just make sure everyone knows what is going to happen.

That's asking too much from people, but that's how democracy works. There's no exam before you deposit your vote.

But that works for everyone. I also pity whoever voted PP and PSOE in Spain because I think their decision was clueless and led us here, in my opinion they voted without understanding what was going to happen or what was best. It's a bit pretentious though, so I try not to do it.

Relaxed Muscle · Sep 23, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
If Catalonia somehow breaks off from Spain and wants to rejoin the EU, Spain has a veto. So yes, they are going to force you if you don't want them to veto every talk with the EU.

If (big if) Catalonia, after years of economic struggling, has the chance to join the EU, Spain would do what Germany asks them to do. Just like how they shut down their aspirations over Gibraltar after Brexit.

Even so, until we reach that point, Spain will have the fend themselves with a 100%+ GDP (and yearly increasing) debt and without his most powerful economic region.

I'm telling you, Catalonia will be fucked, so is Spain.

His Majesty · Sep 23, 2017

All members of the election commission created to watch over the proceedings of the referendum have been given a fine of €12.000 per day until the referendum, which could amount up to €120.000. Take note that these are all academic people from various universities. The Spanish government isn't kidding around.

Meanwhile the Spanish court has instructed the .cat top-level domain to shut down all .cat sites which support the referendum in any way. The .cat TLD responded that they are not a censorship agency and monitoring each domain is not part of their job. After which the Spanish police raided the .cat TLD offices and arrested the CTO at his home.

Various .cat sites have now been taken down and display the following image.

Maybe the Guardia Civil should consider changing its logo. Or maybe not. It's pretty fitting in the current circumstances.

badflame · Sep 23, 2017

This is a polity matter more than social.

In fact the percentage of separatists is small. What happens in Spain, is that the corruption of the central government is so great that many people support independence as the only way to escape the PP government.

If a social and clean party, like PODEMOS, will win the future general elections, the independence will fall drastically in Catalonia.

ClosingADoor · Sep 23, 2017

Relaxed Muscle said:
If (big if) Catalonia, after years of economic struggling, has the chance to join the EU, Spain would do what Germany asks them to do. Just like how they shut down their aspirations over Gibraltar after Brexit.

Even so, until we reach that point, Spain will have the fend themselves with a 100%+ GDP (and yearly increasing) debt and without his most powerful economic region.

I'm telling you, Catalonia will be fucked, so is Spain.

That we agree on, if Catalonia splits off, both them and Spain will be fucked. I really don't see a good way to have an actual split here. They should just give Catalonia some more rights to decide things themselves and hopefully then both can move forward.

curi0usBystander · Sep 24, 2017

His Majesty said:
All members of the election commission created to watch over the proceedings of the referendum have been given a fine of 12.000 per day until the referendum, which could amount up to 120.000. Take note that these are all academic people from various universities. The Spanish government isn't kidding around.

Well, it has already been disbanded so they don't have to pay.

derder · Sep 24, 2017

What the "what's next" plan

marcbret87 · Sep 24, 2017

Wafflecakes said:
No offense, but you are completely deluded if you think this is true.

The problem, and I'm beginning to realize that more and more as I speak to my family and friends (I'm a Catalan but I live abroad), is that what Onyar is saying/believes is commonplace among the average pro-independence person. They really think they are so important that the EU is going to somehow change its rules to keep them in. In fact their argument is that they are voting to leave Spain, not the EU, and they dismiss reports that they would be out as Project Fear (yeah, been there with Brexit). They even believe that they will get to have double nationality (Catalan/Spanish) and that they'll walk away without any debt FFS.

marcbret87 · Sep 24, 2017

derder said:
What the "what's next" plan

Hope for the best, as was clearly seen in the interview by Raul Romeva in Hardtalk.

marcbret87 · Sep 24, 2017

Ethelwulf said:
Not convincing. A small town voting for not paying taxes is not the same than a whole region with its own language voting for independence. They should definitely be allowed to vote. And them having "at best" 50% support is even a better reason to let them vote. Ridiculous to think otherwise IMO. Not Catalan nor Spanish btw...

Well, the argument from pro independence people is they will have more money because they won't have to support poorer regions, and they will be able to walk away from Spain without any debt (and keeping the Spanish passport as well). So yes, this is looking a lot like a bunch of people just deciding "democratically" to stop paying taxes. And I'm Catalan BTW, but I'm not buying all this democracy bullshit they are selling.

Business · Sep 24, 2017

marcbret87 said:
The problem, and I'm beginning to realize that more and more as I speak to my family and friends (I'm a Catalan but I live abroad), is that what Onyar is saying/believes is commonplace among the average pro-independence person. They really think they are so important that the EU is going to somehow change its rules to keep them in. In fact their argument is that they are voting to leave Spain, not the EU, and they dismiss reports that they would be out as Project Fear (yeah, been there with Brexit). They even believe that they will get to have double nationality (Catalan/Spanish) and that they'll walk away without any debt FFS.

Trying to discredit pro-independence by painting a picture of a bunch of greedy deluded fools is nothing new. It has been used ad nauseum for the simple fact the logical consequence that follows is "therefore no voting should even be allowed". Try harder.

marcbret87 · Sep 24, 2017

SpeedOfNuts said:
Trying to discredit pro-independence by painting a picture of a bunch of greedy deluded fools is nothing new. It has been used ad nauseum for the simple fact the logical consequence that follows is "therefore no voting should even be allowed". Try harder.

Unfortunately, the average independentist sounds a lot closer to Onyar than you suggest.
Besides, I'm yet to hear the guys in charge admitting they would be out of the EU and explaining the consequences this would have for the people of Catalonia. They sound a lot like Brexiteers.

Ethelwulf · Sep 27, 2017

marcbret87 said:
Well, the argument from pro independence people is they will have more money because they won't have to support poorer regions, and they will be able to walk away from Spain without any debt (and keeping the Spanish passport as well). So yes, this is looking a lot like a bunch of people just deciding "democratically" to stop paying taxes. And I'm Catalan BTW, but I'm not buying all this democracy bullshit they are selling.

Being pro-independence is different than being pro-referendum. People should be allowed to vote don't you think?

fixedpoint · Sep 27, 2017

zpiders · Sep 27, 2017

Just give them the vote. All this blocking of websites and the suggestion of getting the army on the street is not what a so called free country should do.

Say what you will about the UK government but they gave the vote to Scotland and Brexit. After those votes, the world has ended, the UK hasn't turned into a 3rd world country overnight. I

PSlayer · Sep 27, 2017

zpiders said:
Just give them the vote. All this blocking of websites and the suggestion of getting the army on the street is not what a so called free country should do.

Say what you will about the UK government but they gave the vote to Scotland and Brexit. After those votes, the world has ended, the UK hasn't turned into a 3rd world country overnight.

This

His Majesty · Sep 30, 2017

Let's hope tomorrow will be a win for democracy, whatever the outcome of the referendum. But I doubt it.

RocknRola · Sep 30, 2017

As a Portuguese dude, all I ask for tomorrow is a day without any sort of violence. Whatever the result is, accept it and try to work from there in a positive manner.

Best of luck to all involved.

veryslowhand · Sep 30, 2017

His Majesty said:
Let's hope tomorrow will be a win for democracy, whatever the outcome of the referendum. But I doubt it.

the referendum itself is far from democratic ( or legal).

Wafflecakes · Sep 30, 2017

zpiders said:
Just give them the vote. All this blocking of websites and the suggestion of getting the army on the street is not what a so called free country should do.

Say what you will about the UK government but they gave the vote to Scotland and Brexit. After those votes, the world has ended, the UK hasn't turned into a 3rd world country overnight. I

TBH, I think splitting a country should take more than a simple majority vote by a region. A 2/3rds vote should be required and ANY region within that area should be able to vote by simple majority not to succeed.

A slim majority of Catalonians are tyrannically trying to force regions that do not want to leave to join them in their illegal succession.

His Majesty said:
Let's hope tomorrow will be a win for democracy, whatever the outcome of the referendum. But I doubt it.

The vote isn't democratic and will have extremely low turnout, so no... it won't be.

His Majesty · Sep 30, 2017

A large majority of Catalonia wants to peacefully express their opinion on whether they should remain a part of Spain through a referendum. How is that undemocratic?

I'd say violently repressing any signs of pro-referendum activities and implementing censorship is way more undemocratic. I also didn't know the fascist movement was still alive in Spain. Seems like they find this referendum a good excuse to crawl out whatever hole they've been hiding in. Fucking hell.

RocknRola · Sep 30, 2017

His Majesty said:
A large majority of Catalonia wants to peacefully express their opinion on whether they should remain a part of Spain through a referendum. How is that undemocratic?

I'd say violently repressing any signs of pro-referendum activities and implementing censorship is way more undemocratic. I also didn't know the fascist movement was still alive in Spain. Seems like they find this referendum a good excuse to crawl out whatever hole they've been hiding in. Fucking hell.

Jebus. According to google that's the hymn of a fascist party there :S

Hasphat'sAnts · Sep 30, 2017

His Majesty said:
A large majority of Catalonia wants to peacefully express their opinion on whether they should remain a part of Spain through a referendum. How is that undemocratic?

I'd say violently repressing any signs of pro-referendum activities and implementing censorship is way more undemocratic. I also didn't know the fascist movement was still alive in Spain. Seems like they find this referendum a good excuse to crawl out whatever hole they've been hiding in. Fucking hell.

Wow. The brazenness

ClosingADoor · Sep 30, 2017

His Majesty said:
A large majority of Catalonia wants to peacefully express their opinion on whether they should remain a part of Spain through a referendum. How is that undemocratic?

I'd say violently repressing any signs of pro-referendum activities and implementing censorship is way more undemocratic. I also didn't know the fascist movement was still alive in Spain. Seems like they find this referendum a good excuse to crawl out whatever hole they've been hiding in. Fucking hell.

The problem is, the way the current referendum is being done will give no one the answers they are looking for. You can of course put blame on Spain for that for not allowing a proper one, but still, the current one will not tell us much.

Johnny M · Sep 30, 2017

His Majesty said:
A large majority of Catalonia wants to peacefully express their opinion on whether they should remain a part of Spain through a referendum. How is that undemocratic?

I'd say violently repressing any signs of pro-referendum activities and implementing censorship is way more undemocratic. I also didn't know the fascist movement was still alive in Spain. Seems like they find this referendum a good excuse to crawl out whatever hole they've been hiding in. Fucking hell.

59cf9e18065c6.r_1506793299393.0-87-800-499.jpg

From there, just a bunch of 30 or 40 retards doing fascist shit out of a city of 5 or 6 million of people, pls stop the hyperbole. And btw the actual Mayor of Madrid is from a leftie party and she has expressed her support to the referendum.

forknknife · Sep 30, 2017

His Majesty said:
A large majority of Catalonia wants to peacefully express their opinion on whether they should remain a part of Spain through a referendum. How is that undemocratic?

I'd say violently repressing any signs of pro-referendum activities and implementing censorship is way more undemocratic. I also didn't know the fascist movement was still alive in Spain. Seems like they find this referendum a good excuse to crawl out whatever hole they've been hiding in. Fucking hell.

Stop with the euphemisms. It's a referendum whose organizers will use as an excuse for a unilateral declaration of independence, not just a "peaceful way to express your opinion". The consequences of this referendum are going to be huge and most probably for the worst for Catalonia and the rest of Spain.

Liljagare · Oct 1, 2017

Can someone explain why the Catalonia's populace think they will be well off as a new nation, with pretty much 0 gnp?

Green Yoshi · Oct 1, 2017

bytesized said:
Stop with the euphemisms. It's a referendum whose organizers will use as an excuse for a unilateral declaration of independence, not just a "peaceful way to express your opinion". The consequences of this referendum are going to be huge and most probably for the worst for Catalonia and the rest of Spain.

It was Mariano Rajoy who provocated this situation with a couple of terrible decisions. Forcing people to live within your state didn't work in Yugoslavia and it won't work in Spain either. This state of suspense is hurting Catalonia and the rest of Spain. There should be a final decision soon.

forknknife · Oct 1, 2017

Green Yoshi said:
It was Mariano Rajoy who provocated this situation with a couple of terrible decisions. Forcing people to live within your state didn't work in Yugoslavia and it won't work in Spain either. This state of suspense is hurting Catalonia and the rest of Spain. There should be a final decision soon.

I agree Rajoy and his corrupt government has been the cause for the rise in support for independence in Catalonia and the way they're handling the situation right now is terrible and actually only helps the independist cause.

But that doesn't make any of this a good idea, specially a unilateral declaration of independence which would be a disaster and risk us going down a slippery slope of violence that who knows where it can end.

I hate the corrupt PP government as much as anybody but, really, that's not enough reason to let 51% of the voters tomorrow decide the fate of millions of other people who do not want to secede.

Business · Oct 1, 2017

PP handled this terribly but lets not pretend PP is the only problem. PSOE supports PP in this and they hold the same stance. Cs are even more hard line so that leaves you only with Podemos as the guys with whom an agreement was maybe possible, but they are nowhere near the majority.

DavidDesu · Oct 1, 2017

The only violence I can see is police against people wanting to vote. Spain should have just allowed them a referendum, this is ugly as fuck. It likely would have gone Spain's way as well, but after this....?

jamieson87 · Oct 1, 2017

https://twitter.com/merceclara/status/914386010129223681

tolkir · Oct 1, 2017

Maybe there'll be something positive today. I don't know how reliable is this guy.

Breaking: contact with Ecuadorian Govt says they plan on removing Julian Assange from their Embassy in London. Expect his arrest to follow.

https://twitter.com/TrueFactsStated/status/914246708388823040

Relaxed Muscle · Oct 1, 2017

https://twitter.com/AltoyClaro1/status/914386208574275584

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