PdotMichael
Banned
A purely defensive EU army would be more in line with the peole than the geopolitical Cold-War construct NATO.
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Trump handed Merkel 300bn bill for what germany "owed" Nato
- Thread starter Xando
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Eastern european countries? Sure.
Western european countries like the benelux, france, germany and italy? Not so sure.
A integrated EU force would actually be cheaper than everyone having its own military.
6 months ago this would be impossible. With Trump being Trump now we see more and more calls for it.
Yeah. People often forget that the EU doesn't have the imperialistic goals the US army has.
EU armies are mostly for defence against Russia and peacekeeping.
This whole thing is so damn surreal
Well, all the money transferred to Germany for base operations and donations of no longer used military facilities (that apparently is a lot that I did not realize), plus the fact that 39,000 American troops and the US military are spending money in Germany, putting a lot into the economy.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Trump: Pay money or your fired. This is MY show.
Merkel: No. Are you an idiot? This is politics, not a television show. I am not one of the yes men youve had kissing your ass since you were born.
Trump: *Can no longer look Merkel in the face for the duration of her visit*
Merkel: No. Are you an idiot? This is politics, not a television show. I am not one of the yes men youve had kissing your ass since you were born.
Trump: *Can no longer look Merkel in the face for the duration of her visit*
What are these imperialist goals that Europe does not share?
I don't see where people talked about Germany going alone. Can you quote such arguments?
How about the Iraq war?
Evolution of Metal
Member
Really? What are those service men putting into Germany's economy? Do they pay taxes? Do they rent flats/houses? Do they purchase cars? Do they even bother to buy food outside of the military complexes?
Or do they just buy some coca-cola and cigarettes like in Eastern Europe?
A giant cluster fuck mistake. But several European countries were part of that war. And calling it "imperialist" seems like the wrong term when we largely left the nation and didn't rob it blind.
Trump hates the idea of an EU army.
They spend a lot of money off base, yes. Some live off base, some have cars, all eat and drink and go on dates off base. All these things happen.
And the military contracts with local businesses as well. And German citizens work on the bases.
PdotMichael
Banned
Like we care.
The UK was part of the Iraq war and that's mostly it. Germany and other declined to be part of that war after the clusterfuck called afghanistan the US led us into.
The war was started to exploit the Iraqi oil. It might not be completely imperialistic but the bush era definitely had imperialistic ambitions in the middle east
No one forces you to be the world police but your own politicians.
Europe certainly does not want to be world police
dave is ok
aztek is ok
That's definitely true of non-NATO countries the US has bases in, but I don't know if that's the case with most of these NATO allies.
Trump is an ass for handing her a bill, but this is a problem that I'm glad is being addressed. The US pays more than its fair share and its citizens suffer through awful private health insurance and all these UHC nations used to put up the required 2% right after they signed it and then slowly started giving less and less.
GamingKaiju
Member
Same here
at this moment we should be leaning towards to our European allies not the US it annoys me no end that the UK is seen as the US's lapdog.Fuck Brexit.
jakonovski
Member
Who is forcing you? Stop whining at foreigners about problems of your own making.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
The charter we signed "forced" us, as it did all of these countries that signed it. You could ask why they signed at all if they weren't committed to spending 2% GDP on it as specified and instead rely on US money to handle their defense.
Romania, Poland, Denmark, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Estonia, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Chezch Republic, Moldova, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Latvia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Hungery, Iceland, and yes, the U.K., were all involved in one way or another. That's a lot of Europe.
I'm not going to defend the Bush administration or the Iraq war, but we didn't take any oil.
Pretty much. If they didn't feel like it they'd ignore the "commitment" like they do with every other international treaty and law.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
(Also, no offense, but the idea that the US is this stalwart defender of human rights and freedom is laughable at best nowadays.)
I wonder what could've happened in the early 90s that would've caused defence spending to drop.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
The US isn't forced into that spending by anyone. That's not how it works
The 2% spending goal was put in place in 2014 and is supposed to be reached by all NATO members by 2024.
Because its totally the EUs fault that pretty much every single US govenment agency's budget got slashed in favor of drastically increasing the defense budget in 2017 instead of the crazy nationalist government US citicens voted for.
Sorry, I'd rather my government continues to invest in renewable energy, health, social services, education etc. This is your own fault.
andythinkpad
Member
Why didn't he hand the "bill" publicly? Does he think Germany has a hell's chance to pay it secretly? LOL
Universal Healthcare has existed in those countries well before 1992, the fact that their military expenditure dropped after the fall of USSR is not surprising, the same that the countries that are closer to Russia are the ones to follow the 2% the most.
Your shitty insurance system also comes from the WW2 (as most European healthcare systems) so do not blame us for you having a shitty solution.
ClosingADoor
Member
You are right that EU countries need to get their military in order. But to say that is the problem for bad health insurance in the US is laughable.
Sounds like an amazing plan by Bannon to show Merkel who the Alpha was. The problem here: Merkel is Alpha AF.
Just because we started to help cleaning up the mess on our doorstep doesn't mean we wanted this war.
The US wanted to invade Iraq and the UK and Poland were fools that made themselves complicit. The rest just tried to minimize the fallout later on.
How about send the US the bill for ISIS, which wouldn't have existed if the USA had sane leadership at the time.
I'd like to imagine he did it like a waiter. Put it in a little fake leather case propped up on the table in front of her.
"I'll just leave this here, whenever you're ready."
They also generate "huge" costs for Germany.
$830 million in 2009 alone.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Can we get rid of this clown already?
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Wait, you're blaming the military spending for shitty US healthcare? Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha get the fuck out of here
The 2% target is dumb and negotiated by war hawks to ensure their budget can never be cut.
What countries are going to do is pull the trick all the multinationals are doing. Start adding charges for the military for normal services.
Oh those large barracks on government property, the rent is a few 100m a year now. Merkel wants to count international aid. It is a book keeping exercise and nothing to do with capabilities.
What countries are going to do is pull the trick all the multinationals are doing. Start adding charges for the military for normal services.
Oh those large barracks on government property, the rent is a few 100m a year now. Merkel wants to count international aid. It is a book keeping exercise and nothing to do with capabilities.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Yeah, you're right that it was signed in 2014, but it had been talked about as the metric to hit for at least a decade prior.
Yeah, I don't trust it to actually ever happen - even Obama came with a Republican style plan. But it's frustrating to see so many billions in military spending defending our interests in other countries when we have huge problems at home.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Today i learned Merkel has a doctorate in physical chemistry. I thought it was just chemistry.
Sweet mother of God.
I took one course and did not know what the fuck we were even talking about. I just know it's hard. I would celebrate every curve from a lady just to have that one curve from P chem
Sweet mother of God.
I took one course and did not know what the fuck we were even talking about. I just know it's hard. I would celebrate every curve from a lady just to have that one curve from P chem
Muffin1611
Banned
The point is, even if you wouldn't spend that money which as you already said also serves your interests, your government sure as hell wouldn't invest it in healthcare.
There's no use in having a mutual defense clause if the alliance's major members don't achieve certain spending targets to maintain defensive capabilities. To that end, without a mutual defense clause there's really no reason for NATO to exist in its current form.
I agree with this. The European powers can have a little 1% defense spending club and the US can be freed from any defense obligations.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
NATO doesn't require the US to spend any specific amount. You're wrong to try to pin US military spending on your allies
jakonovski
Member
The 2% goal is new, as someone told you already. However, I'm all for an EU army because I want less American influence in Europe. Don't blame me when you still don't get good healthcare though.
PdotMichael
Banned
USA is also the last who wants to get outspended by the rest of the NATO.
ebullientprism
Member
Nah he is fucking them (and the USA) over for Russia. Not for the wall.
For the wall he will fuck over all the poor people towards whom some of that tax money should have gone.
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