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Feminist Frequency: All the Slender Ladies: Body Diversity in Video Games
- Thread starter lightskintwin
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Son of a Witch
Member
But that's exactly the point. All the issues they take with female body types in video games can be applied to men's:
- Limited range of male body types.
- When there's a notably different body type, it's presented as a joke.
She also puts Overwatch as an example while conveniently ignoring Zaria, Mei and D.Va. Then she shows LoL, and conveniently ignores champions like Rek'Sai or Illaoi.
Garrett Hawke
Member
glad she made a video about this 
i remember there was a thread on gaf about this a while ago and it's still so true.
i remember there was a thread on gaf about this a while ago and it's still so true.NinjaCoachZ
Member
Body diversity is something that a lot of media needs to get better at. She raises great points about how roster-based games like fighters have no problems making the most ridiculous male characters, but always fall into a rut making female characters stay traditionally-attractive. It'd be nice to get more designers from a variety of body types, backgrounds, and genders, etc., if we want to truly bring in the most diverse sources of inspiration. Having designers primarily of the same background results in the narrow design ideologies we've tended to see so far.
There's also a strong lack of older women in games, too.
More like a hit-and-run in this case.
What did you think about her Street Fighter example? That series has Ryu, Blanka, Dhalsim, Necro, Oro, Remy, Vega, Fang... just to name a few. That series has no shortage of male characters of many different body types and ages. I'd hardly consider many of them to be outright jokes - the only one who really is is Rufus (who's not really a great design for a variety of reasons, his outright joke status being one of many).
Meanwhile, I don't think there's a single fat, elderly, or muscular woman in the entire series.
For a recent example, Kingsglaive: Final Fantasy XV has a fat soldier who's taken seriously in the story, but the only female soldier is slim and more conventionally-attractive. I couldn't help but think that they wouldn't have considered making her the fat one.
There's also a strong lack of older women in games, too.
More like a hit-and-run in this case.
What did you think about her Street Fighter example? That series has Ryu, Blanka, Dhalsim, Necro, Oro, Remy, Vega, Fang... just to name a few. That series has no shortage of male characters of many different body types and ages. I'd hardly consider many of them to be outright jokes - the only one who really is is Rufus (who's not really a great design for a variety of reasons, his outright joke status being one of many).
Meanwhile, I don't think there's a single fat, elderly, or muscular woman in the entire series.
For a recent example, Kingsglaive: Final Fantasy XV has a fat soldier who's taken seriously in the story, but the only female soldier is slim and more conventionally-attractive. I couldn't help but think that they wouldn't have considered making her the fat one.
GamingOblivion
Banned
I feel vindicated after half of GAF jumped down my throat for making the same point about Overwatch. Fuck the OW defense force.
This is coming from someone who has put dozens of hours into the game.
Garrett Hawke
Member
OW is head and shoulders above many other games though and she recognises this. i am still hoping for more diverse body types with the female heroes, however.
but that's completely not the case and she mentioned many examples in the video alone of male body type diversity.
GamingOblivion
Banned
watch the fucking video please. In two minutes she destroys your argument by pointing out many examples contrary to your "limited range of male body type" comment.
Sure, but that doesn't make it immune from criticism.
You didn't watch the entire video did ya? Nice!
Son of a Witch
Member
Yeah, like how she says Reinhardt is a body type, while Pharah is a standard body type with armour. Go figure.
I find these videos often very interesting, but I don't think this is a valid criticism as something that's a female issue.
you didn't watch the whole video.
He does have a body type.
He's very different from Hanzo who is very different from Roadhog and so on.
GamingOblivion
Banned
Reinhardt is a very large man. Comically large. His armor isn't what makes him large. Pharah is the standard slender type with armor. She isn't comically huge. You're completely ignoring the truth of the matter to fit whatever bias or narrative in your mind.
EDIT: And guys, bringing up a few counterexamples to FF's point doesn't really do much. The truth of the matter is that for 95%~ of all female characters, most of them are slender goddesses.
You should actually watch the video before posting.
Not only does she show the wide array of male (non joking) body types, she also later mentions Overwatch as a positive example for female body types including Zaria, Mei and the newly announced character.
Son of a Witch
Member
He does have a body type.
He's very different from Hanzo who is very different from Roadhog and so on.
Rinhardt's body type is as different from Hanzo's as Tracer's is from Pharah's.
I did watch it and both his OW and LoL segments are misleading, even if she mentions Mei, Ana and Zarya at the end.
Garrett Hawke
Member
vs
Regginator
Member
Deus Ex Mankind Divided got you covered.
Then again, that probably covers this part:
Then again, that probably covers this part:
#sorrynotsorry
Member
The reason is obviously that it's more visually attractive (not necessarily sexually, though it certainly is a consideration). The same applies to males, but they are attractive for different reasons.
I like her and generally like her videos, but after watching part of this one I think she's setting her target in the wrong place. This is a losing battle. She's basically arguing we need to change what society as a whole thinks an attractive female is, and that's not something you can do consciously.
I'll definitely watch the rest later before coming to a complete opinion though. Maybe she can convince me.
I like her and generally like her videos, but after watching part of this one I think she's setting her target in the wrong place. This is a losing battle. She's basically arguing we need to change what society as a whole thinks an attractive female is, and that's not something you can do consciously.
I'll definitely watch the rest later before coming to a complete opinion though. Maybe she can convince me.
Honestly most of these are the same just with the oversize-muscle slider being lower on some and higher on others.
Don't spoil shit, thanks
John Rabbit
Banned
I LOVE THESE THREADS.
Legitimate question, do male body types actually differ that much in video games? I mean, obviously there's some artistic variation like how Batman looks in the Arkham games compared to Nathan Drake in Uncharted. But, outside of Street Fighter, I can't think of anything of the topic of my head and most male characters tend to have similar fit body types. I'm probably just having a mental lapse and not remembering some other examples, but I thought I'd throw the question out there.
Regginator
Member
It's not story related, not even side quest wise. Just a random grab from Prague.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
It's not attempting to change what people think is attractive. It's trying to say that people who aren't "stereotypically attractive" deserve to be recognised and acknolwedged, too - just as we do with men.
And yes, it's true social change can't come overnight - but nobody really sets out to do that. The goal of this is to create a gradual discussion and awareness of these issues - by making some people aware who then make other people aware.
Mario, Luigi, Wario, Waluigi. All very different body types.
Peach, Daisy, Rosalina. Same body type.
#sorrynotsorry
Member
Seriously? I'm no Gamergate apologist at all. Don't imply that I'm against her or her mission simply because I think one video is not good (so far).
Garrett Hawke
Member
zangief, birdie, dhalsim and fang all have notably different body types.
zangief is grotesquely muscular and large, birdie is really fat, dhalsim is skinny and stretchy and fang is like 8 feet tall with limbs like noodles.
there is no-one like any of those characters in the female roster, and they have since added two more female characters, both of whom have the same body type.
Haven't watched the video yet, but when I think pudgy women in games that I played, the ones that come to mind is Fat Princess, the girl from Persona 4, and similar archetype in Trails of Cold Steel.
Mostly 'fat joke' characters.
I do like women are getting more roles in games these days, not uncommon to see Lady paladins tanks and other 'front line' classes, the next step is to not make them look like barbie models, and a more muscular bulky build if they are 'tank' classes.
Mostly 'fat joke' characters.
I do like women are getting more roles in games these days, not uncommon to see Lady paladins tanks and other 'front line' classes, the next step is to not make them look like barbie models, and a more muscular bulky build if they are 'tank' classes.
Overwatch is a nice recent example, similar to Street Fighter in terms of male characters having a much wider range of shapes.
Ah, good example. What about the female Koopa Kid?
shiftplusone
Member
Reinhardt is like 9 feet tall giant muscle man outside of his armor
Pharah is slender lady in armor. she's not wrong
She literally says "there are a few noteworthy deviations from the standard" regarding the LoL women characters and gives some examples
you should watch the video
IIRC, the three protagonists from GTAV all had different builds.
But Zangiefs body form isn't different, just bigger muscles from what I see. Rest is correct, that's why I said "most". wasn't trying to refute the point, just commenting on that picture.
She also comments on Zarya, Mei, and Ana at the end of the video.
Course people don't watch that far!
I haven't watched it yet, but here's my opinion anyway.
If a game has multiple body types for men, it should have multiple body types for women.
If they stick to one body type because, for example, they need to fit into vehicles and/or don't want to increase workload, it's fine.
Now I'll watch.
If a game has multiple body types for men, it should have multiple body types for women.
If they stick to one body type because, for example, they need to fit into vehicles and/or don't want to increase workload, it's fine.
Now I'll watch.
PinkCrayon
Member
Surprised there was no mention of the ridiculous excuses all the Overwatch ladies have for not aging like the men.
#sorrynotsorry
Member
And I'm arguing that these male characters are attractive in that they're interesting and fun to look at. Females can be too of course, but all of that is based on society and how it generally perceived someone as attractive.
It's not only about sex. Samus is an attractive character. So is Kerrigan in Starcraft. Neither one is sexually attractive.
I know what her goal is. Awareness is the name of the game. I'm saying she's spreading the message too thin. This isn't going to happen in 100 years. Other things she's argued for, like women as independent heroes, can happen in the next decade. She should focus her efforts on that.
Would any of this point more towards Japanese developers or at least originate more so from their leading role prior to western developer increase. As I played over the years noticeably the female characters were certainly contained to a body type hence carried over to modern development because that was the norm. I think of gaming as a still evolving platform that will diversify more physical types, also the player base has changed dramatically and should accommodate for different views. It's a decent reminder topic for players and developers.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
I didn't consider non-humanoid characters like the Koopalings, Toad/Toadette, Yoshi/Birdo.
I guess you could make a case for discussing the Kongs since their designs are more humanoid (being, well, gorillas) but I don't want to be the guy who goes into detailed analyses regarding the Kong Family body type.
Really I will say as a general statement, many problems with the lack of diversity in female designs comes from there also being fewer female characters in many games, so designers tend to fall into tropes (i.e. be less willing to deviate from their personal preferences) more easily. Essentially there are a lot of problems with the current setup that lead to this situation happening - I'm not ruling out any, just bringing up one that I think doesn't help. This'd be solved if developers more consciously attempted to create equal lineups and/or assembled teams of diverse designers.
Society change comes from the people. A few designers stepping out to make an active change in how they represent characters, and a few companies choosing to hire more diverse artists, spurred on by influence from videos and movements like this, are theoretically all that is needed to create a domino effect.
Just because you think it may be a losing battle in the near-future doesn't mean it's worth fighting in the now. These things take time, and every little step forward helps. Racism and sexism are still problems in the world, but that doesn't mean the work of civil rights activists 50-100 years ago was for nothing. They helped ensure their ideals would be passed onto the following generations, and from those generations to the next.
fabricated backlash
Member
Deus Ex Mankind Divided got you covered.
Then again, that probably covers this part:
Not really a joke when the whole Red Queen Club is about catering to all tastes. Aside from the fact that MD has Women of all ages, with different ethnicities, professional backgrounds and levels of physique.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
Can't believe she disrespected the queen like that.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
I see 4 different body type for the guys. Also where juri?
*several hissing noises*Can't believe she disrespected the queen like that.
She just wants to be noticed by senpai.
sssstententen
Member
Its a damn shame too, and doesn't even make much sense. Women can be damn attractive outside of the large bust thing waist archetype.
Mousy, strong, masculine, handsome, thick, wiry, delicate, strong, tall, short, pale, dark, the list goes on and on.
You could easily still use women as eye-candy but not limit them to these stereotypes, if thats the studios goal. I mean, wouldn't it make sense that even men find multiple different body types attractive?
I usually don't like her videos but this one is pretty darn good.
Mousy, strong, masculine, handsome, thick, wiry, delicate, strong, tall, short, pale, dark, the list goes on and on.
You could easily still use women as eye-candy but not limit them to these stereotypes, if thats the studios goal. I mean, wouldn't it make sense that even men find multiple different body types attractive?
I usually don't like her videos but this one is pretty darn good.
Not really much to disagree with here. I think my only comments would be:
- She's a bit too apt to box all sorts of characters into the same category. Using the Street Fighter example, I agree that the male cast has more variety than the female cast but I think she's underselling the variety in the female cast too much to make her point (I feel this happens a lot in these sorts of conversations even if the main point still remains 100% true). The differences are again less pronounced than the male cast but the differences that exist are relevant and significant. Chun Li =/= Sakura, etc.
- She complains that some of the female characters that have strayed off the norm are negative representations and I don't think that's wrong but outside specifically hero/fighting games (and even in them) that often applies to male characters too. As an example, fat slob characters tend to be jokes regardless if they are male or female. As body type diversity eventually increases, you are going to get more joke/stupid female characters too. So outside of legit offensive examples, I hope people are prepared for that
It spoils the existence of a brothel / strip club in prague
Most video game characters are involved in performing some sort of athleticism, so some of this is unavoidable. Women's bodies naturally become more toned and slim while men's muscle mass increases. Naturally, most video game characters will exaggerate this.
And this isn't with just games, it's books, movies, TV shows, commercials, etc. It's a much larger societal thing.
And this isn't with just games, it's books, movies, TV shows, commercials, etc. It's a much larger societal thing.
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