But it doesn't.
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Feminist Frequency: All the Slender Ladies: Body Diversity in Video Games
- Thread starter lightskintwin
- Start date
But it doesn't.
Permanently A
Junior Member
I don't think Overwatch is really a good example. The criticism that Symmetra, Tracer, Widowmaker, Mercy and Pharah all have the same bodytype doesn't really hold water as several male heroes like Reaper, Soldier: 76, McCree, Hanzo, Genji and Lucio all share the same "ideal" athletic build. Its no secret that the males had much more diversity at launch with characters like Roadhog and Torbjorn, but I think Blizzard is making great strides in this department with characters like Mei, Zarya and Ana.
ViolentP
Member
For the sake of argument, say we start forcing a more diverse array of female protagonists and sales of these titles drop 30%. What is the lesson here?
So the assumption is the oversexualization of women in gaming is for no purpose greater than to perpetuate inequality of the sexes?
This is the example that I thought of myself--LIS did a good job with diversity in general.
Totally agree, but, just to correct one thing: Mei and Zarya were launch characters, they were just introduced to the early-access process later on. The only character so far added to the game is Ana.
The next character is presumably/hopefully Sombra, who is speculated to be a Mexican woman. Right now though, we can imagine her with any body type we choose.
For the sake of argument what if a horse grows a horn and flies? that's as backed up with evidence as your premise.
Palette Swap
Member
As always, there's a transcript for people who can't watch the video right now or want to find a specific point or phrasing in it : https://feministfrequency.com/video/all-the-slender-ladies-body-diversity-in-video-games/
What if the sales jump 60%? What's the lesson then?
We can all just make shit up.
What the fuck are you scared of?
If you watch to the end of the video, she actually comments on those three being a positive step for Overwatch.
Man needs his e-titties.
ViolentP
Member
I'm trying to start a dialogue on the subject with you in order to look at this situation from opposite ends. I'm not trying to prove a point, simply trying to get your opinion. But if you're coming in hot, lets just forget the whole thing.
Relax, brother. I'm not defending not diversifying. I'm trying to talk to you guys if you can put your shields down for a minute.
Razzorn34
Member
That's the thing. All of these companies already have data that shows female protagonists in general won't sell as well. So to go as far as to have a female protagonist that isn't even a desirable body type is going to be hard as hell sell for most companies.
Dude that's never, ever, going to happen, like, imagine GTAV starred 3 fat women, you think it would sell less because it featured three fat women? It's not like the protagonists are not already ugly and/or old.
Just because a game doesn't feed into the sexual fantasies of teenagers, it doesn't mean it's not going to sell.
Tomb Raider though.
I'm not sure how comparable a game with a single protagonist is verse games which have a wide range of characters. Where you can understand having a 'normal' male protagonist is going to appeal to the most gamers in a game centred on one character, a game with a cast of characters to choose between can appeal to a much wider range, and in such a game, having a diverse cast that is a massive benefit.
WickedLaharl
Member
Don't spoil what? A fat person being in a videogame? Get a fucking grip.
Can we stop with the "Sex Sells!" and "No it doesn't!" Hot Takes? Shit is a lot more nuanced than that. Sexy in one game =/= Sexy in another game. Sometimes it behooves games to expand or narrow their audience - both can be smart financially depending on the product & aims. There are a lot of factors at play that can't and shouldn't be reduced to a tagline.
He's scared about the collapse of the global economy obviously. Do you want all those developers to lose their jobs! You Monster!
I think the funniest thing about all this is that even if one's primary concern was "hot womenz" you can still STRONGLY increase body type diversity and have a lot of attractive women at the same time. Like Mei/Zarya are still cute/hot IMO and I feel a lot of people of both genders agree.
He's scared about the collapse of the global economy obviously. Do you want all those developers to lose their jobs! You Monster!
I think the funniest thing about all this is that even if one's primary concern was "hot womenz" you can still STRONGLY increase body type diversity and have a lot of attractive women at the same time. Like Mei/Zarya are still cute/hot IMO and I feel a lot of people of both genders agree.
She doesn't ignore Zarya or Mei or Mom-Sniper, hell she seems really happy that they exist.
No, it's based on the wrong assumption that sex sells, when there's no evidence at all that backs up this being the case.
Other than games that are made specifically for pandering, no one's opinion on whether or not buying a game hinges on the size of the female characters' tits.
In the past companies have refused to put out games with female protagonists. Remember Me in particular had this issue so I'd think if games with these type of leads generally sold better they'd be putting a ton of them out.
Companies exist to make money, I highly doubt they'd avoid jumping on something if it was shown to make them more money.
ViolentP
Member
That new Ghostbusters movie. As fucked up as it sounds, if the 4 protagonists were hot and ran around in thongs, it would have garnered a few more sales. Again, not saying it's right, but it's the sad truth.
I believe the market is shallow enough to have a certain percentage of lost sales due to 3 overweight women running lead. As bad as those people may be, really it's the developers capitalizing on ignorant thinking that keep the trend going.
chaobreaker
Member
Mei, Zarya, and Ana were created long after the initial trailer of the game featured in Anita's video. They were the result of Blizzard receiving criticism for not having enough body diversity in the female cast of Overwatch. Here's a panel where they address this. Anita merely wants Blizzard to continue this trend.
The Artisan
Member
might have to save this for later
This is a brilliant conclusion.
It's a wonder why we discuss anything about games. Or entertainment in general.
http://gameranx.com/features/id/104...-sexualized-women-on-the-box-don-t-sell-well/
This didn't take me very long to find. It's just one article, but I think it's enough to show there's at least some evidence to support that it does sell.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Tell that to Team Ninja.
DOA series sells like shit though. Also they're good fighting games that are not taken seriously even in competitive conventions because of the overdone sexualization.
Nope, especially not in thongs lol People that go to see a Ghostbusters movie are not interested in how hot the girls look. Sex sells only when it's inside a "sexy" oriented product.
Who's arguing they don't?
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
DoA sells well enough that they keep pumping them out, as well as a spin off series with hot new VR action. Not to mention a bazillion little sexy outfits to dress your girls up in.
So yeah, sex sells.
alfredofroylan
Member
Great vid! I love the attention she gave OW. Ana being announced was the highlight of the summer for me because seeing a badass older woman and her daughter in the same game is practically unheard of.
I appreciate that OW features a diverse cast and I hope more will in the future as well. Diversity contributes to creativity, I believe. Having a wide range of different cultures and body types and ages is epic.
I appreciate that OW features a diverse cast and I hope more will in the future as well. Diversity contributes to creativity, I believe. Having a wide range of different cultures and body types and ages is epic.
Um, no this is absolute bullshit. Ghostbusters was made as a family film. Do you really think it would have gained more sales from the group of people whose sole interest are in watching four women running around in thongs than it would have lost from the families who actually want a family friendly film?
This is the problem with the assumption "sex sells": it assumes a particular audience, primarily a straight male one. Because yes, for a group of people sex does in fact sell. But there are other audiences out there that media can cater for, and those audiences are much larger than the small contingent who publishers keep pandering almost exclusively to.
I do think a fair point can be made that what you can "get away with" for a singular protagonist in a game vs the large casts of MOBAs or fighting games is WAY more narrow (and this applies for both genders). However, you can still do interesting things with NPCs, Bosses, etc.
Got a source for this? Especially considering the healthy DLC support for the game (going on YEARS now) I find this hard to believe. I hope you aren't arguing "because it sells worse than Mortal Kombat it sells bad!".
Got a source for this? Especially considering the healthy DLC support for the game (going on YEARS now) I find this hard to believe. I hope you aren't arguing "because it sells worse than Mortal Kombat it sells bad!".
Good enough is still lower than a lot of other fighting games. If sex was that important in sales like you say it would sell better than SF, MK or KI.
The spin off series is basically getting the money from the niche group that yeah, buy anything sex related. But it's still a niche market.
Maybe sells like shit was a wrong way to say it but it clearly sells lower than other games.
The healthy DLC support it's basically an overpriced product that sells to people that don't care to waste a lot of money for outfits. They don't sell a lot, but the high price is enough to get profits.
Not shitting in the game, I love DOA5 (I don't care about it's DLC wardrobe though).
ViolentP
Member
I absolutely think it would. Because at least one asshole out there will watch the movie to watch tits for 90 minutes. I'm sorry but that person and others like him exist. I am not defending the action but I certainly am not ignoring it either.
Dynasty/Samurai Warriors games don't sell that well either but they continue to produce those. Production being constant doesn't imply that the game is selling well.
Good video, I liked it. Actually I have been liking her new videos more. She isn't picking as much examples from the games of 80's or early 90's anymore. And her arguments hold water better.
This also reminded me of really embarrassing GAF thread, when Bulimia.com photoshopped some known game characters to a different body type. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1083097 shit was really hard to read.
I also see an opportunity here to give a little compliment to Witcher 3. While the important female characters (who mostly are sorceresses that magically enhance their looks) share their body type. The game does portray nudity for overwheight female body and for really old female body without making it a joke. And then there are the Crones which are important to the plot too, they are far from sexy or ideal body type. I absolutely agree that there should be more variety also in this regard, including from CDPR. Three witcher games and not even one female dwarf!
This also reminded me of really embarrassing GAF thread, when Bulimia.com photoshopped some known game characters to a different body type. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1083097 shit was really hard to read.
I also see an opportunity here to give a little compliment to Witcher 3. While the important female characters (who mostly are sorceresses that magically enhance their looks) share their body type. The game does portray nudity for overwheight female body and for really old female body without making it a joke. And then there are the Crones which are important to the plot too, they are far from sexy or ideal body type. I absolutely agree that there should be more variety also in this regard, including from CDPR. Three witcher games and not even one female dwarf!
You need to watch the whole video, like you need to read a whole article to get the whole picture.
When she first started talking about Overwatch I thought the same thing but she is making a better effort to showcase the opposite side of her critiques by showing what some companies are doing right.
You seems to account the "assholes" that would go to see the movie for the tits but not the families or just regular people that wouldn't go because of the tits.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
It would probably sell far less units if not for the sexy girls. God knows the rest of the lineup is full of some of the lamest male characters ever created.
Then there's the Onechanbara series that while not a heavy hitting series, continues to survive. No way is anyone buying that for anything other then sexy girl action.
That doesn't even make any sense. Especially when you see how almost every girl in SFV has gone through the sexy machine.
Also, DoA 5 and it's F2P version did quite well.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1071686
DoA did pretty well. Was it because of sex? Because it's good? Who knows. It continues to get updates as well (Mai Shiranui)
This is a terrible argument for the sole reason that there are a million variables in play that you haven't controlled for. As an example, the legacy status of SF and MK help their sales. MK has a ton of SP content. MK is ultra-violent and that appeals to people, etc.
Selling Well = Sells enough to keep making them money. It's a relative term (I mean I know you know this but I'm just stressing the point).
That's the reason why one game can "sell well" having sold 250k units and another game sells poorly if it "only" sold 3 million units.
forcevapour
Banned
As usual I disagree with everything this woman says. Personally I think she talks nonsense making issues out of any little thing it's quite ridiculous
ViolentP
Member
I used thongs as an extreme example. But to your point, you have group A which wanted to watch the movie for what it was, and group B that didn't. Now the trick to marketing is to utilize that group C which is a percentage of users within both groups creating a userbase larger than the individual, isolated original groups. It would be a balance that is hard to pinpoint, but ultimately maximizes the profit which ultimately is why the product is released in the first place.
Aces&Eights
Member
I like body diversity in games and wish there was more of it. The Evangelist in DS 3 is a great example. Female charater, def not a slim and sexy body type, yet one of the more satisfying enemies in the world. She was mean, large and didn't move around like a princess.
More game need this. Sure, use some sexy men and women but also model some off the late night Walmart crowd.
More game need this. Sure, use some sexy men and women but also model some off the late night Walmart crowd.
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