As usual more cherry picking of particular video games which support their biases. They obviously chose to ignore Gruntilda or the various NPC characters you come across in games like Zelda. And people there are far more pressing issues to worry about than body diversity in games. Like the climate change, animal conservation, the environment and world hunger!
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Feminist Frequency: All the Slender Ladies: Body Diversity in Video Games
- Thread starter lightskintwin
- Start date
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
Not the only reason.Not really much to disagree with here. I think my only comments would be:
I would also add generally that characters that stray from a specific window of body type tend to be just less popular overall regardless of their gender. Blanka and E-Honda are recognizable but most people aren't chomping at the bit for their return. Birdie is NOT popular and I know a lot of people hated his fatter, slobby redesign.All this will somewhat constrain how "crazy" developers or how often they go "crazy" if they are aiming for popularity. That being said, every body type has a fan out there and there should be more offered of both genders where it makes sense (and it often does).
- She's a bit too apt to box all sorts of characters into the same category. Using the Street Fighter example, I agree that the male cast has more variety than the female cast but I think she's underselling the variety in the female cast too much to make her point (I feel this happens a lot in these sorts of conversations even if the main point still remains 100% true). The differences are again less pronounced than the male cast but the differences that exist are relevant and significant. Chun Li =/= Sakura, etc.
- She complains that some of the female characters that have strayed off the norm are negative representations and I don't think that's wrong but outside specifically hero/fighting games (and even in them) that often applies to male characters too. As an example, fat slob characters tend to be jokes regardless if they are male or female. As body type diversity eventually increases, you are going to get more joke/stupid female characters too. So outside of legit offensive examples, I hope people are prepared for that
Guy cant catch a break.
Garrett Hawke
Member
tfw u are only able to care about one thing at a time!
Also I hope you never feel bad about anything ever because somewhere out there someone just died. A more pressing issue!
I can't help but feel the handling of Overwatch in this video is a mistake, and ultimately serves to undermine what would otherwise seem a pretty valid argument. Splitting the commentary in two, first to attack the game for having wall-to-wall slender female characters, before admitting that since then, Mei, Zarya and Ana were added seems like blatant cherry picking followed by a rushed back-pedal. Perhaps you could argue there is a level of tokenism - Mei is not fat, but certainly not slender, Zarya is muscled, Ana is old - but it's a pretty diverse cast in almost every way. We'll have to see what diversity Sombra does, or doesn't add.
Her appraisals of each character at the beginning of the video also seem a little stretched, exaggerating the differences between the male characters (and including the gorilla...) and implying the female characters all look the same.
The body types of the male cast:
Slender Soldier 76
Slender Genji
Slender Hanzo
Slender Lucio
Slender Reaper
Slender McCree
Slender Junkrat (arguably a little more than slender, he's extremely skinny)
Man-mountain Reinhardt
Followed by two that don't really count in this discussion:
Robot Zenyatta
Gorilla Winston
Leaving us with Torbjorn, a rather Warcraft-esque Dwarf, and the ridiculously fat Roadhog.
Anita isn't wrong to say that those first revealed characters are all slender, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to suggest there is some dramatic difference between the diversity of body types in the male cast v the female cast. The vast majority fit the commonly held ideal of what is attractive and/or healthy, with a few outliers.
Her appraisals of each character at the beginning of the video also seem a little stretched, exaggerating the differences between the male characters (and including the gorilla...) and implying the female characters all look the same.
The body types of the male cast:
Slender Soldier 76
Slender Genji
Slender Hanzo
Slender Lucio
Slender Reaper
Slender McCree
Slender Junkrat (arguably a little more than slender, he's extremely skinny)
Man-mountain Reinhardt
Followed by two that don't really count in this discussion:
Robot Zenyatta
Gorilla Winston
Leaving us with Torbjorn, a rather Warcraft-esque Dwarf, and the ridiculously fat Roadhog.
Anita isn't wrong to say that those first revealed characters are all slender, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to suggest there is some dramatic difference between the diversity of body types in the male cast v the female cast. The vast majority fit the commonly held ideal of what is attractive and/or healthy, with a few outliers.
I came here to say this exact thing, but you put more succinctly than I could have.
Very good video, and gave me something to chew on for a bit.
This kinds of posts aren't funny anymore
I'd argue that men physique is fairly 'standard' outside of large cast mp games as well. Although in recent times, the age range has expanded somewhat with older male leads possible. You don't play as 'moms' in games much (or ever?).
Could be the issue with games in general are fairly 'athletic' and games are going for the realistic graphics these days.
A realistic Mario build vaulting over cover and climbing stuff Ass Creed style would look odd at least in my mind.
People talking about Life is Strange, wasn't the fat girl that you have to keep saving each chapter a joke character too? that's how I felt at least.
Could be the issue with games in general are fairly 'athletic' and games are going for the realistic graphics these days.
A realistic Mario build vaulting over cover and climbing stuff Ass Creed style would look odd at least in my mind.
People talking about Life is Strange, wasn't the fat girl that you have to keep saving each chapter a joke character too? that's how I felt at least.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
Who? And I think you forgot your /s
Right Samus Arun is a bounty hunter she has to be athletic to do her job. Same with Lara Croft, no obese woman is going to be exploring the Himalyas and climbing Everest. You need to be very fit to do those things.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Shit man, you're right. I assume you won't reply though, since you're likely hard at work at fixing climate change.
Choppasmith
Member
Was surprised to see her open up with Mai and KoF 2001 of all things. It rather surprised me that she not only covered body types but age as well. Good video.
Well yeah, you will pick examples that will support your argument. She did however give examples of chaarcters that were not in the same category as most female body types. The same way she lists counter-examples that exist to the trope she talks about in all of her videos.
Not sure why one would have to focus on something like climate change. It's not the struggle Olympics, someone can care about multiple things and decide on their own to talk about a narrow section and there's nothing wrong with that.
Dutch Microwave
Member
Yes,unlike its male counterpart,the female body has evolved in a way that the stronger they are,the smaller they look like. Most of the muscle definition is concentrated around the chest area. The more stronger the women are,the less clothing,armor they have to wear.
I don't think this is a fair criticism. She's talking mostly about games where you get to pick from a large roster of characters, so mobas and fighting games.
Can't believe she disrespected the queen like that.
This however, is a fair criticism. She talks about LoL and asks "Where are all the female monster characters??", and then omits a character like this... I'd say it's sloppy, but it's probably intentional. She has nothing to gain from presenting characters that contradict her argument.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
As a man that looks like a gears of war character I take offense at this.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Regginator
Member
Spoiler alert: there are even bars and restaurants *GASP*
Lol Mankind Divided does the mandatory strip club trope to tittilate its presumed straight male audience ? It's so ridiculous
See: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1139777
They burn more calories wich generate heat, so clothing becomes a nuisance. It becomes a real problem when they are at their peak as an athlete or military service, they start breathing through their skin, so clothing can even become a danger.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
League has been pretty good with non sexualized female characters, and more sexualized male characters. The latest female champions include a lamb archer that is the representation of death, and a middle eastern teenager in a stylish outfit that doesn't hug her body.
I think regardless of how you feel about a subject she tackles, there is a good conversation that could be had since there is often a lot that is right on but also a lot that people can reasonably disagree with, sometimes even strongly.
However, I see that someone(s) is always going to say something REALLY stupid and the next ___ pages are going to be spent quoting and replying to that one person. Every thread! SIGH.
It took my a good minute to understand what you are saying here but I think you're talking about
However, I see that someone(s) is always going to say something REALLY stupid and the next ___ pages are going to be spent quoting and replying to that one person. Every thread! SIGH.
Not the only reason.
Guy cant catch a break.
It took my a good minute to understand what you are saying here but I think you're talking about
Bridie and Karin's "relationship" (I use that term super loosely) in the story? Yeah that probably ruffled the feathers of a few racists but I doubt (or I at least hope not) that's a contributing factor.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Unfortunately this seems to be the reason for it.
Sex does indeed sell. The general public like seeing sexy women. And I can't see anything changing that tbh.
At least not in the near future.
Salty Rice
Member
"I didnt ask for this."Deus Ex Mankind Divided got you covered.
Then again, that probably covers this part:
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Sure, maybe to a specific group of people, but a lot of companies have realized that you're also limiting your audience by doing so.
Hell, even Axe is moving away from this way of thinking.
Because three of the characters are skinnier? If anything Overwatch shouldn't be included in this.
potatohead
Member
Good example.
We do occasionally see less than idealized women figures in media though. It's not super common but it is enough to be noticed relatively often these days.
Popular female comedians or some actresses sometimes challenge these stereotypes in a positive way which is nice.
I think I find much fewer examples in videogames personally.
Media giants and videogame giants will slowly understand that different sized females want to see different sized females in their media too. And when they realize that sells to that market, they will adjust.... just happening ever so slowly, especially in the "presumed" male-dominated videogame space.
Kind of like how clothing retailers took a long time to really advertise plus size female clothing, as if it was unfashionable and poor for sales before (yet they are finding the quite opposite since North America is quite "largesque").
Palette Swap
Member
"General public" meaning here "the young men we've been pandering to for decades".
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
She certainly has a lot to gain, she can acknowledge positive examples of the kind of thing she wants to see more of. And since people put her videos under an INSANE microscope she can cover all possible instance of "HEY WHAT ABOUT X?" that detract from the main point. Plus she looks thorough which is always great.
I didn't say I only care about only one thing at moment. Quite the opposite actually. I said there are far too many much more pressing issues in the real world.
And yes I am more worried about the environment and child poverty for example than the lack of body diversity in video games. You do not have to agree with me.
To name only a few Midna, Maio, Birth, Luda and Telma.
To be fair, you were kind of being a dick about it in the past
I assume that's why most people were annoyed by you
Red Liquorice
Member
It's not a mystery, but some of us are hoping to move beyond just making games aimed at spotty 13 year olds with hairy palms.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
In the thread where I found i remember people saying it was a lot bigger issue. But back on topic,
Did Deus EX MK do anything better than HR? Seems like there's a lot less of good thing and more of bad fhings. Like the final boss was terrible in HR and felt rather unfinished.
You'd also need some muscle which neither of them seem to have enough of.
ViolentP
Member
Being overweight tends to be unhealthy and unpleasing to the eye. Men are often seen as utilitarian which is why they tend not to be bound to certain roles. The value of attractiveness diminishes however when have a large, unhealthy woman onscreen. A large, unhealthy man? No one gives a shit about that. And that attractiveness is certainly a selling point. So when you have that large, caricatured woman, it tends to be a jokey role much like Ellie in Borderlands.
Is it equal? No. Does it need to be? I'm not sure it does.
How?
You can have that one for free.
Okay, does that mean literally every woman in your game has to be "sexy"?
If you have six female characters in your game, is a different body type in a couple of them going to make people put your game down?
Also, if you rely on sex to sell your video game, your game is garbage.
That's not even getting into the fact that "sexy" is not one single body type.
PaulBizkit
Member
How many fat male characters that are not "joke characters" exist besides Wario?
btw, haven't seen the video yet. Does this deal with playable characters only?
btw, haven't seen the video yet. Does this deal with playable characters only?
Tizoc
Member
I'd like to present 2 extremely rare character designs from Japanese games
The first is Big Mama from Shock Troopers 1-
These are the best images I could find through Google :V
She's a muscular black woman and among the 8 selectable characters in the game.
Next up are the Goketsuji Matriarchs from Atlus' Power Instinct series
While they have special moves that would de-age them, the 3 can be played in their aged form in various PI games.
They may be exceptions but they are noteworthy when you consider how rare such character types are in games.
The first is Big Mama from Shock Troopers 1-
These are the best images I could find through Google :V
She's a muscular black woman and among the 8 selectable characters in the game.
Next up are the Goketsuji Matriarchs from Atlus' Power Instinct series
Otane
Oume
Oshima
While they have special moves that would de-age them, the 3 can be played in their aged form in various PI games.
They may be exceptions but they are noteworthy when you consider how rare such character types are in games.
potatohead
Member
I'd like to present 2 extremely rare character designs from Japanese games
The first is Big Mama from Shock Troopers 1-
These are the best images I could find through Google :V
She's a muscular black woman and among the 8 selectable characters in the game.
Next up are the Goketsuji Matriarchs from Atlus' Power Instinct series
While they have special moves that would de-age them, the 3 can be played in their aged form in various PI games.
They may be exceptions but they are noteworthy when you consider how rare such character types are in games.
Very cool, never even heard of this game.
Not only women, excluding a few outliers in fighting games how many unfit males characters exists? Even when they are old(old snake, dhalsim) or fat(roadhog,birdie) they still are somewhat ripped.
I just wished they was more average bodies for everyone, enough of muscular gods in my games.
ViolentP
Member
Jesus Christ.
Even if you don't challenge "sex sells" as a general concept, people realistically find a wide range of body types sexy. Not everyone is exclusively into the slender hourglass, large busted, long legged form most often shown in games.
Within a small range of dress sizes there's so much variance in leg length, shoulder width, muscle mass and weight distribution that we tend not to see in female game characters. That's before we consider more extreme differences in height, weight etc. (which plenty of people are also attracted to).
Within a small range of dress sizes there's so much variance in leg length, shoulder width, muscle mass and weight distribution that we tend not to see in female game characters. That's before we consider more extreme differences in height, weight etc. (which plenty of people are also attracted to).
go_straight
Banned
Does she talk about the greatest woman ever in videogames, Speed Buster?
Tizoc
Member
Shock Troopers is a GREAT 2d shooter, it's available on Steam and Humblebundle.com, as well as PS3 and PSP/Vita.
Power Instinct has been forgotten by Atlus but are interesting fighters in their own right. Keep in mind though that the games features sexualized characters
I'm just being silly. No offense intended.
ViolentP
Member
Nah, no worries. You certainly tapped into a very common manner of thinking. No offense on my part as well.
Red Liquorice
Member
How? Having a wider variety of protagonists is a nice start, just to stay on topic of the video.
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