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Gordon Van Dyke: "Skip translationg into italian, it's a waste".

R

Rikkun

Member
I can assure you there are a lot of Italians who only buy translated games because their English is not good enough to follow a dialogue or understand what to actually do, and we (Italians) still buy console games. Of course it's not the biggest European market, and we didn't colonize and enslave half of the world but what can we do, at least we gave the roots of their own languages to half of the world.

As for other languages yeah, from what I gathered at my job Germans and Dutch can express themselves very well in English, French are stubborn when it comes to using another language and Spaniards are as bad as us. If you're doing a console game you basically have to have Italian, if you're making a MOBA there's no need to, focusing on Korean and such is a good choice.

For example, back in the days many people chose PS1 over N64 because Sony forced Italian translations on their games and on many third parties, while Nintendo kept releasing games only in English/German/French at most. The result was usually wonky (see the MGS dub) but people who don't know English exist, and not knowing a language doesn't mean you're stupid or not willing to spend 70€ to enjoy a good game.
 
F

FloatingDivider

Member
Succinct Verbosity said:
From what my Swedish girlfriend tells me the dubbing in foreign languages is almost always horrible anyway, so most people would rather just play in English.
Click to expand...

Jesus christ, so much this. As someone with Dutch as a first language I think most Dutch dubs are abominations against mankind. At this point it's a non-issue for me since I have learned to speak, (maybe not write though, lmao), English well enough to fool most Americans into believing I'm one of them, and thanks to cultural osmosis I didn't even have to leave my socialist paradise with cheap healthcare to do it.
 
I

IlSignorCornetto

Member
And for referente: everything is dubbed here. Every single piece of media, on every channel on TV, everywhere. Old population, uneducated mass when talking about language and video game. Simple as that
Edit: even Microsoft is starting avoid dubbing in games: Forza Horizon 3 is the first game that I can remember from a first party not to be dubbed but only subtitled.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Chastten said:
Seems discrimination had a very different meaning back when I was in high school than it has now. Guess the world really has become more sensitive in the past 25 years.

Discrimination as we learned it would be actively preventing the Italians from buying your game, or preventing them from learning a required language for said game. Not presenting everything on a silver platter hardly seems like discrimination to me. But, like I said, long time ago. I'm getting old, so I'm probably wrong then.
Click to expand...

Huh? Whether they refuse to localize it because of economics reasons or because they really hate italians, the result is the same: a group of people can't play the game in their native language. I wasn't implying evil intentions or "being offended". Anyway, this arguing over semantics is probably pointless.
 
K

KillerMan91

Member
YianGaruga said:
Everyone uses dubs since everything is dubbed. It's almost literally 100% of content that is shown on TV and in theaters.
Click to expand...

Oh. I thought that theaters would offer movies in both subbed and dubbed formats. Those few children animations that get dubbed here in Finland have always also the original version available with subs in theaters.
 
L

LeleSocho

Banned
Caro Gordon, gentilmente, vire e te na ij nu poc a fancul.
Grazie.

We already suffered all the period up to late PS1/beginning PS2 where games weren't translated in Italian.
 
I

IlSignorCornetto

Member
Since in our country everything is dubbed our dubbing, in films especially, are high level. Even in cartoon like Gumball or even Hijack Horseman they are pretty good... So, it's not that bad. The backside is that no one here talk English that well and it's not easy to listen English through "classic media"
 
D

DedValve

Banned
Rikkun said:
I can assure you there are a lot of Italians who only buy translated games because their English is not good enough to follow a dialogue or understand what to actually do, and we (Italians) still buy console games. Of course it's not the biggest European market, and we didn't colonize and enslave half of the world but what can we do, at least we gave the roots of their own languages to half of the world.

As for other languages yeah, from what I gathered at my job Germans and Dutch can express themselves very well in English, French are stubborn when it comes to using another language and Spaniards are as bad as us. If you're doing a console game you basically have to have Italian, if you're making a MOBA there's no need to, focusing on Korean and such is a good choice.

For example, back in the days many people chose PS1 over N64 because Sony forced Italian translations on their games and on many third parties, while Nintendo kept releasing games only in English/German/French at most. The result was usually wonky (see the MGS dub) but people who don't know English exist, and not knowing a language doesn't mean you're stupid or not willing to spend 70€ to enjoy a good game.
Click to expand...

Yikes, that first paragraph throwing that unnecessary shade at Spaniards.
 
O

ocean

Banned
Eylos said:
you have to agree that only in recent times we are getting games translated in portuguese, before we only got english games

games are usually translated to dutch and french even if portuguese is the 6th laguage that have more speakers in the world, french is in 18 dutch in 56

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

money/social discrimination
Click to expand...
The amount of total speakers is absolutely irrelevant. The two factors which you need to look at are 1. What's the language split for my product's audience, and 2. Which regions see a quantifiable sales hike when we localize.

For instance, Sweden is a country with high purchasing power. They're also a big market for video games. However, every young Swede speaks English - he's not likely to give up on buying a game because it isn't translated. So you don't spend money on localizing to Swedish because you won't make more money for having done so.

Localizing for Russia, even if it's a lower income country, makes more sense. It's also a big gaming market, and one where the audience has a lower rate of english speaking gamers. They've revealed, through purchase trends, to be more likely to buy localized games than games that aren't.

There's no discrimination. It's just money. If translating a game into Luxembourgish, which is spoken by half a million people in the world, cost you US$30,000 and end wind up producing an extra US$600 from 10 sales you wouldn't have gotten otherwise if you hadn't done that translation, then you just set money on fire for absolutely no reason.
 
R

Rikkun

Member
IlSignorCornetto said:
And for referente: everything is dubbed here. Every single piece of media, on every channel on TV, everywhere. Old population, uneducated mass when talking about language and video game. Simple as that
Edit: even Microsoft is starting avoid dubbing in games: Forza Horizon 3 is the first game that I can remember from a first party not to be dubbed but only subtitled.
Click to expand...

Forza Horizon 3 is not dubbed? Xbone must be having a very hard time here.
 
V

VLiberty

Member
Acquiescence said:
I don't agree with him at all, but like the Italians say - "Que sera, sera."

for the uninitiated, que sera sera means "that's life"
Click to expand...

I keep getting more proof about the fact that Italian and Spanish are like Capcom and Konami as time goes by

LeleSocho said:
Caro Gordon, gentilmente, vire e te na ij nu poc a fancul kitammuò.
Grazie.

We already suffered all the period up to late PS1/beginning PS2 where games weren't translated in Italian.
Click to expand...

fixed
 
N

Nerix

Member
KillerMan91 said:
I was pretty shocked when I first time visited Germany as a kid and turned the tv on when I was at the hotel. Everything was dubbed. I can understand that people watch animation movies/series and play games dubbed but live action movies. WTF. I will never understand that. it feels so wrong.
Click to expand...
It's basically a matter of market size. (Unfortunately) it's worth it, to dub movies, games etc to German, but not to languages less people speak (e.g. in benelux or scandinavian countries).

I think that's also a reason, why the inhabitants of those countries can speak English more fluently. If movies and games are dubbed, young people / pupils don't learn English as easy as in countries where dubbing is not common.
 
T

Turin Turambar

Member
Ludens said:
https://twitter.com/GordonVanDyke/status/773120190171275264?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

With relative comments. For Van Dyke apparently italia gamers don't buy Paradox games, but only triple A.
I feel a bit...insulted. I have no problems with the english language, but I also like a good, well translated game. A lot of companies, like Telltale, doesn't provide an italian translation for their titles, and I know for sure this is a con for people wanting to experiment their games but have not a good english skill (I have a couple of friend who played Walking Dead S.1 only because other games are not translated). Maybe this applies to Paradox games.
I mostly buy indie titles, and for sure I rarely play triple A games, the last I played was MGSV, or Witcher 3 expansions if you consider that game a triple A release and not an indie.
EDIT: Please a mod can fix the typo in the title?
Click to expand...

So... how many Paradox titles do you buy? And even if you buy Paradox titles, are you capable of noticing that you aren't a representative sample of the Italian market?
And that surely, given his position, he knows much more about game sales than you?
 
R

Rikkun

Member
KillerMan91 said:
Oh. I thought that theaters would offer movies in both subbed and dubbed formats. Those few children animations that get dubbed here in Finland have always also the original version available with subs in theaters.
Click to expand...
Nope, finding a theater with subbed movies is a huge pain in the ass here, 99% of the times I have to tolerate the dub. Not because it's bad, but I'm used to original voices and many jokes are not really easy to translate. Seeing the mouth moving for a line and hearing a totally different thing sucks, but then again literally anyone can go to the movies and enjoy something easily for two hours.
LeleSocho said:
Caro Gordon, gentilmente, vire e te na ij nu poc a fancul.
Grazie.

We already suffered all the period up to late PS1/beginning PS2 where games weren't translated in Italian.
Click to expand...
I'm dead. I miss the Italian thread in OT.

DedValve said:
Yikes, that first paragraph throwing that unnecessary shade at Spaniards.
Click to expand...
And Portugal and England and French.
Italy and Germany are the only big EU countries who didn't do this -in the last 1000 years-, which is kinda funny when you think about it. And now our languages are drowning in this world.
 
U

uomoartificiale

Member
I'm italian. I love my native language, and I pride myself in speaking and writing in a proper and educated manner.

Historically speaking, Italians have never been trained in consuming any media that has not been translated or adapted in the italian language. Italians still speak and understand english very poorly.
So his assumption that a game without italian translation will sell well in our market it's completely false. You don't have any chance of success or even exposure if your game has not an italian translation.

That said, and this is a sore point for me, because our language is very complex and expressive compared to others (english is the natural comparison here), a half-assed translation is immediatly apparent and it's incredibly distracting and immersion breaking. For that reason I completely stopped playing games and watching foreign movies dubbed or traslated in italian years ago, and I happily never looked back since.

I guess my point is: spend the kind of money needed to have a quality translation or don't even bother.


The same goes for the italian dubbing. Dubbing in general in the last years has been of absymal quality and the italian voice acting in games has always been ludicrously bad. For example, the italian level in uncharted 4 had some terrible italian voices (don't get me started on assassins creed).

On one hand, you need the translation or the dubbing to get exposure in this market, but on the other, what's the point in spending all those money to basically end up with an crippled version of your game?

I remember years ago when the CTO publisher superbly translated the monkey island games. All the humor was perfectly translated or adapted. Those games still resonates with italian gamers because of those wonderful translations.
 
H

hobblygobbly

Member
If you are going to sell your game in a region/country I think it's the right thing to localise it. You should support languages in countries you sell to. Assuming everyone speaks English and that everyone /should/ know English is unacceptable.

If you want to talk about purely maximising the largest demographics in terms of finances then yes, in Europe German and Russian are localisations you don't want to skip. Lots of people refuse to buy games that aren't localised too. Most people care about the text, such as UI, subtitles, etc, than dubbing, so you can always prioritise. Germany and Russia are the biggest markets in Europe and while all the youth get taught English and can understand it fairly well, many prefer their native language. I'm completely fluent in three languages, my mother tongue being German and I still prefer sometimes to use German if I can, even though my English is just fine (spent half my educational years in an actual English school).
 
K

KillerMan91

Member
Nerix said:
It's basically a matter of market size. (Unfortunately) it's worth it, to dub movies, games etc to German, but not to languages less people speak (e.g. in benelux or scandinavian countries).

I think that's also a reason, why the inhabitants of those countries can speak English more fluently. If movies and games are dubbed, young people / pupils don't learn English as easy as in countries where dubbing is not common.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I can understand why it happens but I think it's a shame because like you said being exposed to english pretty much every day for several hours starting from childhood is the best way to learn the language. I mean I learned the basic grammar and that in school but most of my english skill have come from playing games in english, watching tv in english, and using a lot of internet in english and same thing has happened to pretty much every Finn.
 
S

STHX

Member
I can read/speak english on a level that allows me to post in english boards and play english-only games with little to no problem, but of course I will always prefer playing/reading in my native language.

And I also fully understand developers that don't want to translate games in italian, no one can force them, and maybe it's not worth it.

However, if you're not going to translate games in our language, then don't ask us for its full price. It's not fair for us, but also not fair for developers/publishers that translate titles in many, many languages and never post on twitter about how it's not worth it. Almost everything published by Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, Square, Bandai Namco, Capcom, EA, Activision, Ubisoft, Warner Bros is translated in multiple languages (there are some exception, like lesser known or smaller titles, but often those aren't full priced releases either), and many indie games too were and still are translated in, at very least, EFIGS.

If games translated in italian were a dime and dozen I would not write these things, but in reality many, many titles are translated, and when I want to buy one that's the first thing I check. As an example, I recently bought God Eater R/2RB on Steam, Namco asked 50€ for that, and it's also in italian (among other languages), so if with 50 bucks I can get a game (which isn't even that known in the west) in my language, why should I pay the same price for another game which is not translated? I like RPGs, I had no problem buying Bravely Default at launch day (since it was translated) but I didn't get I Am Setsuna, even if I know that I will like it, because I'm not paying 40€ for an untranslated game if 45€ can net me Bravely Second. On DS I bought the 3 PW Ace Attorney games as well as AJAA and Ghost Trick (even GT was translated in italian), but I'm not buying Spirit of Justice until it's at least -40% (although I did buy PLvsAA on 3DS since that was translated, and even dubbed, in italian)

I can understand if you feel offended or if my words appear harsh, really, but trust me: having to read games, or books, in a non-native language can be very tiring. You pretty much have to read a sentence in english and then mentally translate it in your language. It takes more time and in can also be annoying with titles with lots of text.
Hell, if a game is AAA, and costs like a AAA game (and Paradox titles cost 40€ at launch in europe, and from my understanding of the OP mr. Van Dike is linked to Paradox), then am I truly entitled if I ask for a AAA translation too?
 
C

Condom

Member
Games being translated in Dutch in this day and age keep surprising me. I do appreciate it even though I prefer to play in English myself.
 
R

Rikkun

Member
uomoartificiale said:
I'm italian. I love my native language, and I pride myself in speaking and writing in a proper and educated manner.

Historically speaking, Italians have never been trained in consuming any media that has not been translated or adapted in the italian language. Italians still speak and understand english very poorly.
So his assumption that a game without italian translation will sell well in our market it's completely false. You don't have any chance of success or even exposure if your game has not an italian translation.

That said, and this is a sore point for me, because our language is very complex and expressive compared to others (english is the natural comparison here), a half-assed translation is immediatly apparent and it's incredibly distracting and immersion breaking. For that reason I completely stopped playing games and watching foreign movies dubbed or traslated in italian years ago, and I happily never looked back since.

I guess my point is: spend the kind of money needed to have a quality translation or don't even bother.


The same goes for the italian dubbing. Dubbing in general in the last years has been of absymal quality and the italian voice acting in games has always been ludicrously bad. For example, the italian level in uncharted 4 had some terrible italian voices (don't get me started on assassins creed).

On one hand, you need the translation or the dubbing to get exposure in this market, but on the other, what's the point in spending all those money to basically end up with an crippled version of your game?

I remember years ago when the CTO publisher superbly translated the monkey island games. All the humor was perfectly translated or adapted. Those games still resonates with italian gamers because of those wonderful translations.
Click to expand...

Give this man an award. Nowadays many translations are made by celebs, which means animated movies are dubbed by Youtubers. Some are ok, some are terrible, but this is a whole another topic. Io sono la gomma, tu la colla.
 
Akhe

Akhe

Member
pa22word said:
Dutch and French buy more games, bigger market to take advantage of, get more shit translated.

On another note, maybe more games would be translated in Portuguese if Brazil didn't have absurd protectionist barriers artificially raising the price on games/hardware beyond what the market can bear. Such as the infamous $1,800 PS4.
Click to expand...

So much this. Or XCX $96,92
 
U

UncleSporky

Member
DedValve said:
Yikes, that first paragraph throwing that unnecessary shade at Spaniards.
Click to expand...

4ouc8iX.png
 
G

G.ZZZ

Member
Our Dubbing industry was top level. I still prefer Stallone dubbed on its original, and many others. But Stallone's dub was definitely outstanding in Rambo1 and Rocky1. Or Saint Seiya. It's hard to appreciate for an american since they consume mostly american products, but w/e.

Nowadays it's all nothing but trash.
 
S

stan423321

Member
ocean said:
The amount of total speakers is absolutely irrelevant. The two factors which you need to look at are 1. What's the language split for my product's audience, and 2. Which regions see a quantifiable sales hike when we localize.

For instance, Sweden is a country with high purchasing power. They're also a big market for video games. However, every young Swede speaks English - he's not likely to give up on buying a game because it isn't translated. So you don't spend money on localizing to Swedish because you won't make more money for having done so.

Localizing for Russia, even if it's a lower income country, makes more sense. It's also a big gaming market, and one where the audience has a lower rate of english speaking gamers. They've revealed, through purchase trends, to be more likely to buy localized games than games that aren't.

There's no discrimination. It's just money. If translating a game into Luxembourgish, which is spoken by half a million people in the world, cost you US$30,000 and end wind up producing an extra US$600 from 10 sales you wouldn't have gotten otherwise if you hadn't done that translation, then you just set money on fire for absolutely no reason.
Click to expand...

While this post is basically it, there are extra variables here. You know how people joke about Germans loving simulators? It's statistically true... and it can hit a game the other way around too. And the chances are, your audience in such an area will know English way better than the general populace - if the games are text heavy, that is. Also, what if your game is not on area's platform of choice? Again, people who will pick it up are more likely to know English well enough. Perhaps there's more, I can't really think ATM.

Things like Paradox's strategy games are really sensitive to this sort of stuff.
 
adversarial

adversarial

Member
Acquiescence said:
I don't agree with him at all, but like the Italians say - "Que sera, sera."

for the uninitiated, que sera sera means "that's life"
Click to expand...

"quello che sarà, sarà" means "what will be, will be"

He could have found a less hostile way to say what he meant to say.

I'm sure that wouldn't get people talking about it, though.
 
B

BumblebeeCody

Member
JP said:
The doesn't appear to be anti-Italian in any way it's merely anti translating into Italian because the money could be better spent elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Considering companies fart out money on flashy advertising, over inflating their budgets with an insulting amount of DLC and wallet cash grabs, I'm sure they can spare some money for a mere decent Italian translation.

Sorry but Italians deserve better regardless of the "small market" that actually play games in Italian.
 
O

OverturePT

Member
Rikkun said:
And Portugal and England and French.
Italy and Germany are the only big EU countries who didn't do this -in the last 1000 years-, which is kinda funny when you think about it. And now our languages are drowning in this world.
Click to expand...
Yea, the "Italians" were definitely too early to the language game when they murdered, pillaged and raped a good percentage of Europe and surroundings.
 
H

Heaven Shard

Banned
I would go with subtitles. Voice acting is expensive, but subbed text should be cheap. I think it is an industry scam to charge for subtitles if they happen to be expensive.
Heck, why not do approved open free subtitle translations? There are fans there who would do it for free and the publisher could take a quick look to see if they are serviceable.
 
Dommel

Dommel

Member
The thing I don't understand is why every new generation in Germany, France, Italy, Spain etc. still go for the dubs.

I can understand the baby boomers and the gen after that but younger people should really be able to understand English at a level good enough to enjoy/understand foreign media if you're into gaming

Millennials especially, growing up with the Internet and then still not being able to grasp English is bizarre.
 
A

Angel_DvA

Member
Looks like Skull face had a point...

Joke aside, I find it insulting and I'm not even Italian but I'm more shocked about Italian people that are ok with it because English is supposed to be known everywhere and shit, English isn't your native language, it's the one you use for commercial exchange and internet, be proud of where you from and the language you natively speak, if people think your native language isn't worth it, then make them understand that their games aren't worth it too.
 
Y

Yazus

Member
I'm Italian and I'm ok with this, really.

I too would love to see more games transalted to my language but let's be honest, it's not gonna happen because Italians wouldn't buy those games in the first place.

I learned English playing JRPGs when I was 14 yo and trust me when I say that when they tried to localize them it was a failure (Tales of Symphonia sold shit) so basically the only JRPGs localized here are mainline FF and some SQEnix games.
 
D

dragonlife

Member
As a bilingual player (Spanish and English), I find myself incredibly happy that there's good Latin American dubs these days, though I wish it were in more games I played. I also wish more games had more language options (including voice) to please everyone, but I know sometimes it's just not financially feasible or worth the resources, and that sucks.

A good bonus to being bilingual is being able to enjoy a game you like in a different way to compare/contrast. English is almost always my starting option, obviously, but sometimes it's nice just being able to start it in Spanish (or whatever language you understand) if you want to avoid certain things--like fucking Troy Baker and Laura Bailey--and be pleasantly surprised about the quality of the localization/voice work.

I'm not a huge fan of most of their games, but I respect that Blizzard goes the extra mile for their games in terms of localizations. Overwatch in Latin American Spanish is fantastic. It's also how I played Heroes of the Storm, and that was good, too. I wish Valve were half as good as them in that department =/.
 
A

AlucardGV

Banned
Succinct Verbosity said:
From what my Swedish girlfriend tells me the dubbing in foreign languages is almost always horrible anyway, so most people would rather just play in English.
Click to expand...

i can tell you Italian dub is very high quality....just for movies and tv shows. videogames don't get any of this, except a couple of memorable dubs like Grim Fandango and Legacy of Kain
 
F

Fudgepuppy

Banned
When I bought Assassin's Creed Brotherhood for the X360, I was fucking pissed that the game defaulted to Swedish for me, as the locale-settings were to Sweden.

If I was a game developer, it would take a lot of convincing with graphs from specialists to convince me to translate my game to any language beyond English.
 
C

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Raist said:
Because they speak a romance language, not germanic.
Click to expand...

Good point.

Fudgepuppy said:
When I bought Assassin's Creed Brotherhood for the X360, I was fucking pissed that the game defaulted to Swedish for me, as the locale-settings were to Sweden.

If I was a game developer, it would take a lot of convincing with graphs from specialists to convince me to translate my game to any language beyond English.
Click to expand...

Bought R&C for PS4 and the game defaulted to Norwegian. Fuck that shit, I want the English dub, not my native language. English is always preferrable to me, maybe besides books.
 
K

KillerMan91

Member
Combichristoffersen said:
Good point.
Click to expand...

I mean of course that is one reason but especially with Nordics and Dutch it's more about being exposed to the english from early childhood as foreign tv shows/movies, games are not dubbed. I mean finnish as a language is even more different compared to germanic languages than romance languages are and yet the english skills here are at least almost at the same level as in other Nordic countries and way beyond southern Europe.
 
A

AerialAir

Banned
I get where he's coming from. Sometimes games are delayed a bit because of it, sometimes translations make the game loose quality. Of course every should be able to enjoy a game in his/her native tongue, but thats impossible, there has to be some profit for doing so. I personally use English even when I buy a localized version because I wish to play games the way the dev's imagined them.
 
T

thsantos

Member
Brazilian dubs are of high quality too, but I think dubs in general are a disservice. No matter how great a dub can be, it removes artistic interpretation of voice acting, that almost in every case, is intended by the game director. I don't like dubs in films too, for the same reason. But that, of course, do not include subtitles, which I think are great for people who don't understand english.
 
R

Rikkun

Member
Pixel Warrior said:
Yea, the "Italians" were definitely too early to the language game when they murdered, pillaged and raped a good percentage of Europe and surroundings.
Click to expand...
Oh hello Switzerland, how are you today
BumblebeeCody said:
Considering companies fart out money on flashy advertising, over inflating their budgets with an insulting amount of DLC and wallet cash grabs, I'm sure they can spare some money for a mere decent Italian translation.

Sorry but Italians deserve better regardless of the "small market" that actually play games in Italian.
Click to expand...
Well, we don't deserve anything. Nobody does, money dictates these things. Companies do spend a lot of money on dubs tho, so it's probably something that helps them sell their products even tho there are only 60 million Italians.

Raist said:
Because they speak a romance language, not germanic.
Click to expand...
Damn Anglo-Saxons stole our Albione *shakes laurel crown in the air*
 
A

Axial

Member
Over here in Poland localizations of certain games tend to be mediocre in regards to quality. I personally prefer to play most titles in english because too much stuff, like certain pop-cultural nuances and references, gets lost in translation.
Whether localizations are expensive or not is disputable, considering that some publishers treat it as an additional form of DRM in countries where games are being sold cheaper than usual. I had to buy past Battlefield titles from online keyshops because EA did not sell 'fulll' english versions of BF3 or BF4 in retail stores nor over it's ORIGIN app. Same applies to Activision and CoD games which had some horrible translations with orthographic errors, typos, even localized text missing and no option to switch the game to its original languange simply because the games were region locked on PC.
 
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