Zoe
Member
Seems like they were preparing to, but the sudden movement made the officer with the gun go first.
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Police kill unarmed black man in California.
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Seems like they were preparing to, but the sudden movement made the officer with the gun go first.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Police shouldn't be dealing with the mentally disabled.
But of course, the US can't think or finance an alternative.
But of course, the US can't think or finance an alternative.
You guys realize that if soldiers in war zones aren't allowed to fire unless fired upon? Yet these police who should have every advantage in terms of training, equipment, and information on the situation are allowed to use lethal force at their own discretion whenever they feel unsafe?
As for "letting people shoot them", how often do these suspects either have guns legally, or not have a gun at all? A significant number of officers are killed by their own weapons when someone takes it from them, yet the NRA opposes smart guns that would deactivate when not held by a user with the RFID ring. And yes, I do believe that an officer should be prepared to lay down their life in service at any moment, because "protect and serve" doesn't say "except suspects or convicts".
Yes
The fuck are you talking about?
Preservation of one's life is still a top priority. I have never heard of any training where a police or military just idles or reacts passively while an uncooperative and erratic person makes the sudden movement to shoot and kill him.
Why is this even a point of contention? Are there really armchair experts ITT saying they would react differently knowing they have a split second before a person literally motions to blow your head off with a firearm?
This pretty much summarizes it.
MightyHedgehog
Member
You can thank conservatives from the '80s onward for that. Gotta move that funding into the column for our forty-year plus failed drug war and extra-special targeting of minorities.
The military has zero to do with this. And this is basically a textbook example of a) suicide by cop b) justified putative self-defence.
Then you are confused. Protect & Serve does not mean letting suspects shoot you because afterall they might just act like they have a gun or have a BB gun.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
If he is black? Shoot on sight.
Add to some of this that because officers are armed and seem to treat things the way they do, they put themselves in rather precarious positions that then lead to the danger with no other options but to shoot. The one big example I keep coming to is that mentally challenged man that his wife or mother called the police on because he wouldn't go to the doctor and the cops stood literally right on his porch, trapped by cars and everything.
In this case, too, the officer got close literally because if something happens they could shoot him. If this is a possibly dangerous and erratic person then there are solutions to keep officers out of firing range and training that should be implemented before something like this happens.
depths20XX
Member
Yup, suicide by cop. You can't simulate pointing a deadly weapon in that moment and expect not to be shot.
I'm not a fucking armchair expert saying that I would react differently, because I'm not trained.
How do cops in countries without guns do things like this?
I also just love how we expect civilians to react rationally when there are guns pointed at them and cops possibly screaming, yet we don't expect trained police officers to act like calm and rationally.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'm siding with the police on this one. He refused to listen to their orders, then deliberately made a shooting gesture holding an item while the police had their weapons drawn. There's no reason for the police to believe that he's trying to do anything but shoot them, and hesitating in that scenario is how you get killed.
This isn't a case where police are just killing black people at random as much as the topic title would want to imply. To be honest, the constant inflammatory headlines is really annoying and takes away from the discussion of the actual issue of police violence in america.
This isn't a case where police are just killing black people at random as much as the topic title would want to imply. To be honest, the constant inflammatory headlines is really annoying and takes away from the discussion of the actual issue of police violence in america.
MightyHedgehog
Member
In America, sure.
O.v.e.rlord
Banned
Yes!
MilkyJoe
Member
Shoot them?
No, that's a worldwide thing actually. Since most of the rest of the western world doesn't have millions of guns in civilian hands there tend to be less of these cases however.
MightyHedgehog
Member
I'd love to hear more, but I cannot find solid info on that. I'm going by American police involved in the deaths of unarmed people, something that doesn't seem to register on the same level among our peers. Gun ownership certainly is a factor to consider, but the rates of deadly shootings by our police forces are way out of whack.
O.v.e.rlord
Banned
thatsbait.gif and I won't fall for your trolling.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I don't know if you're being disingenuous or you just didn't read the article, but that's not what this is.
O.v.e.rlord
Banned
I don't fing get it! Did you read the OP at all or see the picture that was taken before the shooting occurred?!
UK use rubber bullets when dealing with suicide by cop situations.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gunman-threatened-police-rifle-effort-6743070
Guy last year held up a gun and said he would shoot. But he survived, as they shot him with rubber bullets.
Oh please. Race obviously played a factor here. Cops take down far more dangerous white men who are committing crimes all the time without killing them.
Good to know you're not a fucking expert. Calm down.
Cops in countries without guns deal with a populace that isn't armed. The US has a gun problem and an overabundance of firearms. That's why the trained officers were behaving with caution. It was an unfortunate situation all around.
I don't expect a civilian to follow a textbook procedure in a stressful situation with police, but come on. Pretending to have a gun in your pocket, pulling it out and aiming to fire it... those are the willful actions of a suicidal person.
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
Does every incident occur in a vacuum?
Some anecdotes of white suspects not getting shot (by sources like "usuncut.com") are not incredible evidence for what you are claiming. In this specific incident there are zero signs pointing to race playing any role.
That does not seem like a comparable situation. Aside from that the cops in this threads' incident WERE trying to take him down non-lethally with a Taser first.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
You can't compare the 2 situations at all. I thought we wanted police less militarized, not more... to have a shoot 2nd approach would mean we'd have to have completely militarized police.
No thanks.
Not sure what people think they'd do in his situation. Man pointed something that could look like a gun right at police. This is when you expect someone to get shot
Only way to avoid it is if the cops went in there blazing with non lethal weapons the moment they realize something is "off." This ain't law and order where police will risk a gun pointed directly at them as they attempt to talk the suspect down. They have little information about this person
Only way to avoid it is if the cops went in there blazing with non lethal weapons the moment they realize something is "off." This ain't law and order where police will risk a gun pointed directly at them as they attempt to talk the suspect down. They have little information about this person
"God's Beard!"
Member
What's "far more dangerous" than someone pointing what appears to be a gun at you after you ignoring your orders? Or do you believe the police should request that they examine a subject's weapon before determining the correct course of action?
As far as I can tell, there aren't a whole lot of situations a police officer can find themselves in than staring down a firearm.
This is like the police pulling someone over for driving 90 in a 25 zone and you saying they only got a ticket because they were black.
Violence Jack
Member
Sounds like suicide by cop, but they should have been able to easily subdue him with a taser long enough to get the man on the ground.
Nope, it's just easier to kill people with mental illnesses. I shouldn't expect anything different since those cops killed a man running around naked last year.
Nope, it's just easier to kill people with mental illnesses. I shouldn't expect anything different since those cops killed a man running around naked last year.
"God's Beard!"
Member
You can still shoot someone after being tazed. You're not totally paralyzed.
I stopped counting, but still: Read the report. They were about to taser him.
You said it was a worldwide thing, when it isn't. There was even a guy who was charging cops with a machete that didn't get killed here. In the US he more then likely would have been killed. This is all about police training.
O.v.e.rlord
Banned
Things the person did before he was shot that has nothing to do with race
1. Paced back and froth while the cops gave him to remove his hand from his pockets.
2. Failing to comply with the orders police point their weapons at the man.
3. Person rapidly remove his hands from his pockets and extends the quickly towards the officers while taking a stance.
This looks like suicide by cops to me. If anyone did that regardless of race I bet they will get shot.
Zoe
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";218400584]You can still shoot someone after being tazed. You're not totally paralyzed.[/QUOTE]
Happened earlier this month
Happened earlier this month
Literally not even 24h ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37494255
These are all anecdotes. They don't mean shit either way. There are millions of guns in the US so naturally there will be more people drawing guns on police officers thus there being more police shooting incidents. If you storm at police with a knife in europe in most cases you will get shot as well.
mrhyderager
Member
Guns aren't a consistent threat in other countries. Martial arts training + numbers vs crazy guy = no deaths and hopefully minor injuries.
In the US, that equation becomes: Martial arts training + numbers vs crazy guy + gun = potential police and civilian casualties.
It's really easy to point to other countries and see where they are able to succeed, but the difference in cultures is subtle - and still, extremely significant, when talking about policing.
Good cop Bad cop scenario.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Do I really have to parse through the link I provided you and strip out all the links they provided to legit news sites that kinda indicate they're not just anecdotes? Fine, let's play this silly game:
http://www.wfmj.com/story/27753282/...er-pointing-gun-at-new-castle-police-officers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQwlfXdDDYA&feature=youtu.be
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/o...rivilege-of-arrest-without-incident.html?_r=1
http://www.rawstory.com/2014/12/two...-bb-gun-arent-shot-by-police-for-some-reason/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eath-of-john-crawford/?utm_term=.bdaa076d40bd
http://www.wmur.com/news/police-man-arrested-after-shooting-bb-gun-at-officers/28219706
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/joseph-houseman-open-carry_n_5501883.html
Police kill Blacks at a statistically disproportionate rate. Period. This is across the board so obvious it includes standoff incidents as well as everything else. If you refuse to recognize this you're either ignorant, or a racist. Pick one.
Violence Jack
Member
I did. It said one officer tasered him at the same time the other officer shot him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-with-an-unloaded-gun/?utm_term=.df6ac8d38d24
Someone with actual military training was able to avoid using violence, and they are punished as a result. There was a GAF thread on this as well.
What confuses me is why citizens of our own country are dealt with more harshly than civilians and insurgents in occupied territory.
I'm mobile right now so I can't find the link easily, but someone here mentioned before that if our soldiers acted the way our cops do, they would be guilty of war crimes.
I mentioned that more in my post on the last page. Officers unnecessary escalate situations to the point of lethal confrontation because they often lack proper training, then use said lack of training as an excuse for having no other option.
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