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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?

J

Jeffrey

Member
You can't retry normal battles either, so ive lost quite a bit of time over my playthrough of persona 5 so far due to bullshit crits/elemental weakness etc, even on normal.

I just don't understand why this is still a system after all these games. Like why can't my homies use a revive on me like I can for them?

It's not like the system makes the gameplay more 'challenging'. Every death feels like rng on my ass, and didn't feel like something i could have avoided with ' more skill'.

At least in persona 4 golden and p5 is more lenient on restarting after a game over on the same floor or close safehouse, but I still lose time. why not just give rid of this system all together?
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
On one hand it can be lame if you get super unlucky.

But on the other hand your MC can have a buttload of health and you can hotswap their resists because they can have any Persona they want...

Give your MC your best armor and gear, protect the leader at all costs. (And git gud)
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
It fair because the MC can swift between all Personas.

And story wise MC is you with the magical powers... if you die it is gameover because you are the one supposed to have the power to revive the others.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
Didn't find out this was a thing until a good amount of time in..it left me stuck for a good minute when it happened I didn't save in like an hour either. Don't like it in a party based rpg where you can control everyone
 
P

PK Gaming

Member
Because then you run into the issue where it's nearly impossible to lose once you stock up on revive items (which was the case in Persona 2). I think the game should at least let you retry battles, because forcing you to reload on non-bosses is archaic, but the MC death = game over as a concept is fine. The protagonist is like the Lord in Fire Emblem. Protecting him is a sub priority.
 
kunonabi

kunonabi

Member
buddha0991 said:
This wasn't a thing in Persona 1 and 2, I don't know why they added this Persona 3 onwards.
Click to expand...

Because they got lazier in terms of designing scenarios that require legitimate strategies and team building. Its the same reason you can no longer switch personas for your entire team.
 
S

Sheroking

Member
TheTylerRob said:
Preparation so that it doesn't happen is part of skill. It makes battles more strategic.
Click to expand...

Except Persona mechanics are kind of dumb and it's possible for your MC to die to some crap you can't realistically plan against.

My favorite was my entire team getting status'd by an enemy I've never seen before, and then the MC killed by them hitting his weakness while I couldn't swap my persona.

Lost an hour.
 
C

Crayons

Banned
It's total fucking bullshit.

I can go into a battle with a normal enemy with full health and then all the enemies decide to attack me at once and kill MC. I shouldn't have to lose hours of progress because the enemy spotted me first and attacked me.

I just got back literally just now from dying in P5 again, I have lost probably a good 5 hours worth of progress due to deaths and I'm only on the 4th dungeon
 
F

FluxWaveZ

Member
The entire battle system would need an overhaul. As it is right now, the main character is way too powerful for the game not to end when they die.
 
P

PaulloDEC

Member
It's annoying for sure. I'm at the point where I'm scrambling for safe rooms at all times because I can never tell what the next shadow will be packing. That and smothering the MC in healing at every possible juncture.

It seems like one of those masochist mechanics from the earlier days of gaming, i.e. we're not going to actually make the game more difficult, but boy are we going to make you redo big chunks of it if you mess up!
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
Sheroking said:
Except Persona mechanics are kind of dumb and it's possible for your MC to die to some crap you can't realistically plan against.

My favorite was my entire team getting status'd by an enemy I've never seen before, and then the MC killed by them hitting his weakness while I couldn't swap my persona.

Lost an hour.
Click to expand...
My mc got the status despair, had no idea what the hell it was at this point lost a good amount of progress
 
K

Karu

Member
Yeah, yet have to hear a reason why it is actually a good mechanic... it's super annoying no matter how easy it is to avoid.
 
B

BronsonLee

Member
Persona's battle system is weird because it stacks the fucking deck in your favor at least for the first turn

Then you get fucking bodied
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Radical Edward said:
There is no reason for it and it's pretty stupid. The stealth and camera are terrible, too
Click to expand...

The reason is to add tension to what would otherwise be very tedious grinding. EVERY fight in P5 is an opportunity to lose if you screw up, get ambushed and some fucker casts the wrong thing on you. So you try very hard not to screw up. When you do screw up, it hurts, this is known as "playing a game".

For an alternative, look at something like Bravely default which allows you to turn all battles off, walk to the save point and then grind beside it with absolutely no danger to anything. It makes it incredibly boring.

Persona is doing this right.
 
P

PaulloDEC

Member
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
My mc got the status despair, had no idea what the hell it was at this point lost a good amount of progress
Click to expand...

That wouldn't have been in F
utaba's
P
alace
would it? Because that was the area in which I learned the hard way that despair will kill your entire team if you don't treat it asap.
 
S

Seiryoden

Member
It's a pretty generous game-over mechanic in terms of where it allows restarts. It's also a JRPG with 16 save slots, a button that takes you straight to the save menu, a fast-forward-on-first-play skip option and a tutorial that tells you to save often in different slots.
 
F

Ferrio

Banned
The MC is extremely OP, he should be able to avoid anything if you play your cards right.

Being able to raise the MC would negate the battle strategy behind Persona. You could just brute force the game.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
PaulloDEC said:
That wouldn't have been in F
utaba's
P
alace
would it? Because that was the area in which I learned the hard way that despair will kill your entire team if you don't treat it asap.
Click to expand...
Exactly where it was I didn't touch the game for two days after that upset I was shocked like wtf just happened. Mind you never had mc die before that point so had no idea lol
 
M

MaximumSpider

Banned
Learn from your mistakes and keep going. The MC can hold multiple Personas so switch if you you come across an enemy that has an element you are weak to. Remember that you can also guard if you feel uncertain in situations. There's so many things you can do. I used to hate it back when I first played P3 but now I know what I'm doing to prevent an early death.

If that doesn't work you can always play Easy mode.
 
S

Sheroking

Member
toddhunter said:
The reason is to add tension to what would otherwise be very tedious grinding. EVERY fight in P5 is an opportunity to lose if you screw up, get ambushed and some fucker casts the wrong thing on you. So you try very hard not to screw up. When you do screw up, it hurts, this is known as "playing a game".

For an alternative, look at something like Bravely default which allows you to turn all battles off, walk to the save point and then grind beside it with absolutely no danger to anything. It makes it incredibly boring.

Persona is doing this right.
Click to expand...

If it was doing this right, I wouldn't honestly have considered dropping the game entirely multiple times for this one reason. And I felt the same way about 3 FES and 4.

Costing someone tons of progress because they forgot to save, especially when EVERY game autosaves now, is not satisfying. It's frustrating. All they need to do is autosave when you go to bed. That's the only change that needs to happen to not make this brutal.

Ferrio said:
The MC is extremely OP, he should be able to avoid anything if you play your cards right.
Click to expand...

Except you have to fish for weaknesses a lot of the time and it's possible to be status'd out on turn 1.
 
A

aadiboy

Member
Sounds like you guys just suck. Thankfully, Atlus provided a difficulty level for the less skilled players. I'd advise you to stick with Safety.
 
P

psynergylover

Member
Not trying to be snarky but this didn't need a thread, could've shared it in the OT


....that being said, it adds to Persona's difficulty; be sure to know the weaknesses of the shadows you fight and the weaknesses of the persona you have equip, it's a give and take game. Also improve you confidant links you'll get a worthy perk when they hit nine(your "phantom thieves")

You'll always end up with the enemies getting a lucky and the occasional insta-kill from mudo/hama skills, just save often
 
T

TP

Member
SMT has already dropped this. It's amusing to see Persona stick with it.

Maybe it'll be removed in the inevitable rerelease
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Sheroking said:
If it was doing this right, I wouldn't honestly have considered dropping the game entirely multiple times for this one reason. And I felt the same way about 3 FES and 4.

Costing someone tons of progress because they forgot to save, especially when EVERY game autosaves now, is not satisfying. It's frustrating. All they need to do is autosave when you go to bed. That's the only change that needs to happen to not make this brutal.

Except you have to fish for weaknesses a lot of the time and it's possible to be status'd out on turn 1.
Click to expand...

There is literally no danger of losing in a battle unless you are in a "dungeon". P5 allows you to save at the start of each of them, so how is autosaving going to achieve anything?

Yes it is frustrating to lose progress, but it is frustrating because a) you fucked up and maybe b) you forgot to save because you didn't think you would fuck up.
The thing is, you will not fuck up in the same way after losing an hour. So you actually learned something and you actually get a sense of achievement from playing the game.

If you don't want a sense of achievement, there are always games like FF15 or other open world experiences that have got your back.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
aadiboy said:
Sounds like you guys just suck. Thankfully, Atlus provided a difficulty level for the less skilled players. I'd advise you to stick with Safety.
Click to expand...

yup. I hope they never change this, adds real risk and reward. Tension = GOAT gameplay mechanic.
 
H

Hugstable

Banned
ehh, P5 has so many safe room save points that it really isn't too big a deal if it does happen anymore, usually like 15-20 mins or so you gotta go back. And even then P5 seems like it's happened less often to me atleast compared to other SMT games, MC is pretty beefy in HP as well
 
G

gaiages

Banned
While I do kinda get the logic and have adjusted to it, RNG based MC deaths are the goddamn worst. Especially when they like exploit another character's weakness THEN crit the MC THEN use a 1-3 hit attack and of course land three hits on the MC :| Oh, and me learning exactly what despair does via MC was legitimately the most frustrating thing I faced in a game in a while... though thankfully I only lost like 5 minutes progress. I'm really fearing when the enemies start whipping out the instakill spells...

I do think it's a problem that I'll heal the MC at half health over an almost dead teammate simply because I can revive them, though. But at the same time, they'd have to neuter the MC somehow to make him less of a powerhouse.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
toddhunter said:
There is literally no danger of losing in a battle unless you are in a "dungeon". P5 allows you to save at the start of each of them, so how is autosaving going to achieve anything?

Yes it is frustrating to lose progress, but it is frustrating because a) you fucked up and maybe b) you forgot to save because you didn't think you would fuck up.
The thing is, you will not fuck up in the same way after losing an hour. So you actually learned something and you actually get a sense of achievement from playing the game.

If you don't want a sense of achievement, there are always games like FF15 or other open world experiences that have got your back.
Click to expand...
Like what?
 
K

Kthulhu

Member
ethomaz said:
It fair because the MC can swift between all Personas.

And story wise MC is you with the magical powers... if you die it is gameover because you are the one supposed to have the power to revive the others.
Click to expand...

Except all the others party members can do this. There is no story reason.
 
T

Tinfoilhatsron

Banned
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
My mc got the status despair, had no idea what the hell it was at this point lost a good amount of progress
Click to expand...

Dude I got that on MC with no items left at the very last boss of Palace 4. Lost about 30 minutes of progress. It's pretty bullshit. The SMT4/A games just got rid of it and it's way better there.
 
S

Sheroking

Member
toddhunter said:
There is literally no danger of losing in a battle unless you are in a "dungeon". P5 allows you to save at the start of each of them, so how is autosaving going to achieve anything?

Yes it is frustrating to lose progress, but it is frustrating because a) you fucked up and maybe b) you forgot to save because you didn't think you would fuck up.
The thing is, you will not fuck up in the same way after losing an hour. So you actually learned something and you actually get a sense of achievement from playing the game.

If you don't want a sense of achievement, there are always games like FF15 or other open world experiences that have got your back.
Click to expand...

What a condescending shitpost.

You aren't special. The game will randomly kill you regardless of what you do. There's no "sense of achievement" lost in auto-saving for you so you don't lose two weeks of in-game progress because your got Mudo'd two feet into a dungeon or Mementos.

It's bad design. That's why it's basically the only series that doesn't auto-save.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
I did not play P5 yet.

But P4 you can lower the difficulty that back you at the floor entrance if you dies.

If it is frustrating for you then you are playing in the wrong difficult.
 
S

Scrooge McDuck

Member
ethomaz said:
And story wise MC is you with the magical powers... if you die it is gameover because you are the one supposed to have the power to revive the others.
Click to expand...

This is not a thing, right? Like, the SEES in Persona 3 has been operating for a long time before the MC came along.
 
Crayon

Crayon

Member
I haven't played p5 yet. I have played other games that do this. While it's not my preference due to aesthetic reasons, I have to admit it adds some strategy to the game. A tiny bit like the goal of capturing the king in chess.

And it introduces the tension of death. Take classic ff; a character goes to 0 hp and there is no impression of death. You just pop a phoenix down. At best, you feel a warning knell of death since if you let it happen to the other three, you really die. With the mc required, when a supporting character dies, you think "that could have been me".
 
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