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Alexious · May 16, 2017

https://www.pcgamesn.com/tyranny/tyranny-sales-paradox-obsidian

Obsidian did a great job of capitalising on the timing of Kickstarter and the wave of nostalgia for these type of titles, goes his hypothesis. We've seen that most of the titles after Pillars of Eternity, if you look at Wasteland, Torment - they haven't been anywhere near that kind of success. So maybe it's that a lot of nostalgia fed into the initial bubble and that's why. These games have a market, but it's never gonna be that peak [again].

Jorjani draws a parallel to revivalist point-and-click adventure games and the initial warmth for a fondly remembered genre.

But once people started playing them, they were like, I kind of know why they aren't prevalent anymore, he says. This form of gameplay isnt really working in today's environment.

I can play Kerbal Space Program that way, or Cities: Skylines. But if its Tyranny, I want to read every single word and savour the words, because I know that Chris Avellone and the rest of the people over at Obsidian put a lot of effort and love into writing those words. I want to make sure that Im paying it the right kind of respect.

Paradox also mentions that Obsidian is kind of out of their league in that they don't have the budget for some of their bigger projects. Hopefully Obsidian can find a bigger publisher that can still allow them to retain creative freedom.

dude · May 16, 2017

I guess we're not getting Tyranny 2 then?

5taquitos · May 16, 2017

Life at Obsidian must be a roller coaster of emotion and stress.

Anno · May 16, 2017

I mean it sold well enough for them to greenlight an expansion. I guess this pretty much confirms they won't be doing the same distribution deal for Deadfire that they did got POE1, though.

Aeana · May 16, 2017

From my perspective, Tyranny just kind of showed up out of nowhere, and the only reason I knew about it was because of an off-hand post here. If they wanted it to sell better, maybe they should have done a better job of promoting it. There's not very much logic to releasing a game into the ether and being disappointed that people don't magically know about it and buy it in droves.

Com_Raven · May 16, 2017

Anno said:
I mean it sold well enough for them to greenlight an expansion. I guess this pretty much confirms they won't be doing the same distribution deal for Deadfire that they did got POE1, though.

They are talking about Tyranny, not about Pillars, which I believe was quite successful. I think the thread title is a bit confusing in that sense, since they did two rpgs together in recent years.

Anno · May 16, 2017

Aeana said:
From my perspective, Tyranny just kind of showed up out of nowhere, and the only reason I knew about it was because of an off-hand post here. If they wanted it to sell better, maybe they should have done a better job of promoting it. There's not very much logic to releasing a game into the ether and being disappointed that people don't magically know about it and buy it in droves.

Yeah they kinda cop to that in the interview. It doesn't help that they went with the slogan "Sometimes Evil Wins" for a game that released the day after the U.S. election.

Com_Raven said:
They are talking about Tyranny, not about Pillars, which I believe was quite successful. I think the thread title is a bit confusing in that sense, since they did two rpgs together in recent years.

Yeah I know. It just seems like the companies have some working differences which is why I made the quip about POE.

MisterShine · May 16, 2017

Honestly I think the marketing you get from a Kickstarter or Fig fund is about as valuable, if not more so, than the money you actually get to fund development.

How much different would Tyranny have sold if it had a kickstarter attached? I'm not sure, but if they kickstart/fig Tyranny 2 I'm 100% into that =)

edit:

Com_Raven said:
They are talking about Tyranny, not about Pillars, which I believe was quite successful. I think the thread title is a bit confusing in that sense, since they did two rpgs together in recent years.

They said somewhere that more Tyranny content is in development at Obsidian. So an expansion of some sort (that still hasn't been mentioned officially 6 months after release...)

ThoseDeafMutes · May 16, 2017

Alexious said:
Paradox also mentions that Obsidian is kind of out of their league in that they don't have the budget for some of their bigger projects. Hopefully Obsidian can find a bigger publisher that can still allow them to retain creative freedom.

Boyarsky and Cain are working on a new IP, which probably has publisher backing on at least some level. It was described as a "dream game" for Boyarsky.

There have been no high profile layoffs this year, there were a few when they got wind of AW development ending at Obsidian, but lately have been hiring for a new game. One job posting describes it as a "high profile role playing game." Another, for UI, mentions "the design and creation of the user interface for our next great multi-platform RPG."

So the AW staffers still on the team and the new hires are probably working on a single, larger game (larger in comparison to Pillars of Eternity). I say probably because there's also a chance that the new IP is a small/mid sized title, and then the AW staffers are working on something licensed for someone. Either way, Obsidian doesn't rake in enough cash to pay the bills for 150-200 staff members indefinitely, even with the success of Pillars 1 and the crowdfunding injection for Pillars 2. Somebody is publishing something with them.

water_wendi · May 16, 2017

i am a huge Obsidian fan and i never ever heard of Tyranny until after it released.

Ahasverus · May 16, 2017

Obsidian has to be the most struggling great dev around. They can't catch a break. I thought everything was coming up after South Park, I was so, so wrong.

Vamphuntr · May 16, 2017

Chris Avellone only worked on the Pre Production of Tyranny. He left the company after that so it seems weird to read the he enjoyed reading the text he wrote.

Tyranny was salvage from the MS game canceled on them so it was obviously rough. The writing was stellar but the gameplay overall was pretty clunky with the same thrash mob mentality as POE.

There was barely any advertising for it either so it probably didn't help.

I wonder who will fund Obsidian's RPG now.

ThoseDeafMutes · May 16, 2017

MisterShine said:
Honestly I think the marketing you get from a Kickstarter or Fig fund is about as valuable, if not more so, than the money you actually get to fund development.

How much different would Tyranny have sold if it had a kickstarter attached? I'm not sure, but if they kickstart/fig Tyranny 2 I'm 100% into that =)

While this is true in a sense, it's also not a guaranteed success.

Tyranny is at 175,000 copies sold. Torment: Tides of Numenera is at 109,000 copies activated on Steam, including backers, with "negligable" sales on other digital platforms according to an interview. Even if we imagine the console sales were another 100,000, the successfully kickstarted Numenera, with a lot of hype surrounding it managed to bomb quite hard.

Dargor · May 16, 2017

Honestly I completely forgot about this game was even being released. Gonna take a look at it. It sounded interesting.

Vamphuntr · May 16, 2017

ThoseDeafMutes said:
While this is true in a sense, it's also not a guaranteed success.

Tyranny is at 175,000 copies sold. Torment: Tides of Numenera is at 109,000 copies sold on Steam, with "negligable" sales on other digital platforms according to an interview. Even if we imagine the console sales were another 100,000, the successfully kickstarted Numenera, with a lot of hype surrounding it managed to bomb quite hard.

It's from two different studios though. I sure as hell didn't back Numenera but backed both iterations of Pillars. I have no faith in InXile after Wasteland 2 and my bet was right on the money for Torment 2.

nOoblet16 · May 16, 2017

It's a shame that one of the most talented RPG makers in the industry with some of the best writing proficiency by far has had to struggle so much for so long. They are essentially considered to be the B level developer for any game but in terms of skills they are probably far superior to several other of these "veteran studios".

Yam's · May 16, 2017

water_wendi said:
i am a huge Obsidian fan and i never ever heard of Tyranny until after it released.

This. You cannot forget about marketing and hope your game will do well on its own.

Onlinehero · May 16, 2017

Tyranny is a beautiful and engrossing game for the first act, more so than any recent Bioware game or any previous Infinity Engine game for that matter. It has you making meaningful choices instantly and guides you through the world in a way that makes a completely new world familiar within a couple of hours, before opening up and letting you loose on the map.

I was very surprised when playing it well after release.

Like, a demo might have been nice?

Nirolak · May 16, 2017

I feel Divinity: Original Sin managed to do a notably more attractive modernization of the legacy CRPG style of game.

Were I Obsidian, I'd probably consider something more along those lines if I wanted to run two series of CRPG style RPGs.

Com_Raven · May 16, 2017

water_wendi said:
i am a huge Obsidian fan and i never ever heard of Tyranny until after it released.

No offense, but how does a huge fan not hear about a company releasing a new game? While there were no huge ad campaigns, they certainly talked about it a lot on all their own channels.

Nirolak said:
I feel Divinity: Original Sin managed to do a notably more attractive modernization of the legacy CRPG style of game.

Hard to say if it was more successful (it sold more on Steam, though it was probably also more expensive), but they definitely managed to make a game that feels equal parts classic and modernized. Will be interesting to see how the sequel does for them, given the reception of Torment and Tyranny.

Lister · May 16, 2017

nOoblet16 said:
It's a shame that one of the most talented RPG makers in the industry with some of the best writing proficiency by far has had to struggle so much for so long. They are essentially considered to be the B level developer for any game but in terms of skills they are probably far superior to several other of these "veteran studios".

It's maddening. I wish Valve would start a PC Developer initiative, where they take amazing PC studios like Obisidian and give them the financial backing they need to produce great games.

Turn them into premier AAA PC dev studios, but unlke console AAA games which are mostly action adventure games on rails, they are given creative freedom to continue to make the kind of games they excell at, just without so many limitation fo team size and budget.

Altazor · May 16, 2017

Dammit Obsidian. It pains me to see such a great dev studio struggling.

I'm doing my part in buying their products/funding their crowdsourced projects, but it's not enough

AColdDay · May 16, 2017

I love Obsidian, I just have never loved real time with pause gameplay. I put up with it in BG and Dragon Age 1, but I like a true turn based system like D:OS.

I'm always going to support Obsidian, because they are one of the few major developers who really try to do the right thing. I really wish that I could win the lottery and just pay them to make a spiritual successor to Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines.

Lactose_Intolerant · May 16, 2017

Lister said:
It's maddening. I wish Valve would start a PC Developer initiative, where they take amazing PC studios like Obisidian and give them the financial backing they need to produce great games.

Turn them into premier AAA PC dev studios, but unlke console AAA games which are mostly action adventure games on rails, they are given creative freedom to continue to make the kind of games they excell at, just without so many limitation fo team size and budget.

Valve likes making money, they aren't a charity.

Spacecowboy77 · May 16, 2017

I think it's mainly an issue of expectations and genre. Not a whole lot of people likes top-down isomeric CRPGs these days.

Even with better marketing, zero bugs and amazing story, you're just not going to sell that many copies.

Kill3r7 · May 16, 2017

nOoblet16 said:
It's a shame that one of the most talented RPG makers in the industry with some of the best writing proficiency by far has had to struggle so much for so long. They are essentially considered to be the B level developer for any game but in terms of skills they are probably far superior to several other of these "veteran studios".

Agreed. I have always found it peculiar that Obsidian has worked on some major AAA RPG franchises but they have not found major success. Especially when you consider their writing chops and side quest design. They are loved by hardcore WRPG fans on forums but fail to draw the interest of the general public.

water_wendi · May 16, 2017

Com_Raven said:
No offense, but how does a huge fan not hear about a company releasing a new game? While there were no huge ad campaigns, they certainly talked about it a lot on all their own channels.

i havent been a regular at obsidianent.com for a while. i saw no previews or gaf threads or ads or marketing of any kind. This interview is the first exposure ive had to Tyranny outside of the OT iirc.

ZoddGutts · May 16, 2017

Nirolak said:
I feel Divinity: Original Sin managed to do a notably more attractive modernization of the legacy CRPG style of game.

Were I Obsidian, I'd probably consider something more along those lines if I wanted to run two series of CRPG style RPGs.

Would like for them to do another turn based game ala South Park.

ThoseDeafMutes · May 16, 2017

Nirolak said:
I feel Divinity: Original Sin managed to do a notably more attractive modernization of the legacy CRPG style of game.

Were I Obsidian, I'd probably consider something more along those lines if I wanted to run two series of CRPG style RPGs.

They definitely need to improve their gameplay if they're hoping for a breakout hit. And nostalgia aside, I do think turn based systems are a better fit for their smaller RPGs than RTwP is.

BrokenFiction · May 16, 2017

Was there any advertising for Tyranny to speak of? It felt like suddenly, POP, it was there.
PoE had tons of free hype and advertising thanks to the KS.

Nirolak said:
I feel Divinity: Original Sin managed to do a notably more attractive modernization of the legacy CRPG style of game.

Were I Obsidian, I'd probably consider something more along those lines if I wanted to run two series of CRPG style RPGs.

It doesn't hurt that Larian puts out update videos all the time and Swen is like the new spokesman for CRPGs in the 2010s.

Corpekata · May 16, 2017

Torment and Wasteland 2 were also from different devs and didn't really garner near the word of mouth or critical reception Pillars did so I'm not sure they're all that comparable.

Tyranny though, I think suffered from a few different things. It wasn't promoted very well, and really, I don't think it neccessarily has the broad appeal as something like Pillars. The whole "Be evil" setup is great in the game but I can see some being turned off by it, and the game is also notably short for the genre. It's a shame as I think Tyranny might be my favorite besides Divinity OS.

I do think there's certainly a "new take" bubble that Pillars really benefitted from, and there's also a bit of genre fatigue.

Vark · May 16, 2017

This came out? Between the election and holiday releases I guess it just got buried.

Instro · May 16, 2017

Tyranny needed some better marketing, zero hype after PoE had done so well. Going by Steam Spy, Tyranny sold like a 10th of what PoE did, pretty horrendous. Obsidian and Larian have to be concerned that Tyranny and Torment bombed so badly.

ThoseDeafMutes · May 16, 2017

Corpekata said:
Torment and Wasteland 2 were also from different devs and didn't really garner near the word of mouth or critical reception Pillars did so I'm not sure they're all that comparable.

Tyranny though, I think suffered from a few different things. It wasn't promoted very well, and really, I don't think it neccessarily has the broad appeal as something like Pillars. The whole "Be evil" setup is great in the game but I can see some being turned off by it, and the game is also notably short for the genre. It's a shame as I think Tyranny might be my favorite besides Divinity OS.

I do think there's certainly a "new take" bubble that Pillars really benefitted from, and there's also a bit of genre fatigue.

I think the marketing was a misstep in general. Seeing banners with "sometimes evil wins" and talk of the evil overlord made me think the tone was going to be comedic, like the series called "Overlord". I wasn't expecting it to be a rather serious meditation on morality.

Anoregon · May 16, 2017

Tyranny is cool. I bought it day 1 and definitely enjoyed it for a few dozen hours, but it totally faded from my mind and I haven't gone back to finish it.

Maybe I should start a new run.

Lister · May 16, 2017

Lactose_Intolerant said:
Valve likes making money, they aren't a charity.

It's not about being a charity, unless you think Sony's first party studios are about being a charity.

It's about bringing in more people to PC gaming, it's about bringing in more people to Steam, it's about promoting both the platform and the games.

You don't think the fanbase would be stoked to suddenly hear something like:

"Big AAA Obsidian PC Game coming out on Steam"

You don't think it would have a positive effect on PC gaming overall, for exactly the same reasons somehting like TLOU, has a positive effect on Sony's platform? Pretty sure there is a reasonable chance Steam would even make a profit on the game, nevermind all the other benefits.

Sulik2 · May 16, 2017

Obsidian needs to scale back to Shadowrun sized games if they want to continue self publishing games. I love their epic games, but its not realistic to expect the sales they need to keep making those games. They need smaller scale, quicker games to produce and support. Shadowrun is a perfect template for them.

Lactose_Intolerant · May 16, 2017

Lister said:
It's not about being a charity, unless oyu think Sony's first party studios are about beign a charity.

It's about bringing in more people to PC gaming, it's about bringing in more people to Stema, it's about promiting both the platform and the games.

That return on investment would be quite low in this case.

Taruranto · May 16, 2017

I'm not sure how much they were expecting to sell, it had a niche appeal and not much word of mouth. All things considered, I felt it did fine, especially given the game's quality.

Alexander DeLarge · May 16, 2017

Lister said:
It's not about being a charity, unless oyu think Sony's first party studios are about beign a charity.

It's about bringing in more people to PC gaming, it's about bringing in more people to Stema, it's about promiting both the platform and the games.

This. I have no idea why Valve isn't playing the role of Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony at this point.... And I think they'd be pretty cool about it considering they'll allow Source 2 games to be sold on other storefronts. I doubt they'd lock funded projects to their platform.

DSix · May 16, 2017

I read it as "Obsidian did a great job doing the big part of our marketing job for us, but otherwise we don't know shit about how to properly market RPGs".
With that said, there's still some truth to the fact that it is a niche.

Though, I do agree on their assessment on point and clicks.

Corpekata · May 16, 2017

Sulik2 said:
Obsidian needs to scale back to Shadowrun sized games if they want to continue self publishing games. I love their epic games, but its not realistic to expect the sales they need to keep making those games. They need smaller scale, quicker games to produce and support. Shadowrun is a perfect template for them.

They don't self publish. The article is an interview with their publisher.

Vamphuntr · May 16, 2017

Lister said:
It's not about being a charity, unless oyu think Sony's first party studios are about beign a charity.

It's about bringing in more people to PC gaming, it's about bringing in more people to Stema, it's about promiting both the platform and the games.

Steam more or less has a soft monopoly at this point. CS GO and DOTA2 probably bring them many new users too. Dumping money for a AAA PC RPG by a studio that didn't release an AAA games in years isn't the best idea I would think unless you are making the next Skryim.

Hektor · May 16, 2017

I love Obsidian, but with all due respect, Tyranny was a glorified, cheaply produced spin-off of PoE that lacked in several departments.

It irks me that everytime a game sales badly it's blamed on everything but the game itself.
This is why sometimes entire genres or franchises just die, because a bad or mediocre game selling badly is mistaken for market saturation or disinterest.

Tyranny reviewed worse and got a worse word of mouth compared to pillars, and it did so for a reason, a reason that will also reflect in sales.

Divinity: Original Sin, the best selling new crpg managed to double its backer count and funding on kickstarter with its sequel.

The desire is still there as much as it used to, but now that everyone of these devs (Obsidian, Larian, Inxile) released at least one kickstarter game they can't ride anymore on their past pedigree and have to convince people with quality, a quality that PoE and D:OS met, but Tyranny or Torment simply didn't.

Com_Raven · May 16, 2017

Lister said:
You don't think it would have a positive effect on PC gaming overall, for exactly the same reasons somehting like TLOU, has a positive effect on Sony's platform? Pretty sure there is a reasonable chance Steam would even make a profit on the game, nevermind all the other benefits.

Making a profit on a PC-only AAA game with no multiplayer or GaaS elements is incredibly hard these days- I think you may underestimate the cost of that (or overestimate the sales potential, I guess).

Also, the people who like Obsidian's games are already playing on PC, and have a Steam account. I don't see a sudden huge influx of new accounts being created from people who a) are desperate to play a new Obsidian game and b) have never created a Steam account, which is the primary platform for most of Obsidian's previous games.

Lister · May 16, 2017

Lactose_Intolerant said:
That return on investment would be quite low in this case.

How do you know that? I don't think anyone would know unless it's tried.

And that's my main point. It doesn't even have to necessarily be about bringing a set set of studios as "first party" for Valve, it could be as simple as openign up a pgoram where developers cna pitch their ideas, and then have Valve publish the best ones alogn with budgets capable of bringing out the best in each game.

Basically, what they had been doing internally, just externally, since they seem to be focusing just on games like DOTA, why not put some money down on other types of "first party" PC games?

Not all of them are going to be Half-Life in terms of mind and market share, but some might be.

Saren is Bad · May 16, 2017

I loved Tyranny and despite numerous efforts I can't get into PoE, but I ran right through Tyranny. I just don't get why both exist though.

I wish PoE takes more from Tyranny's battle system but even then I agree with the gist of the interview - these games just aren't as popular anymore

Kill3r7 · May 16, 2017

Lister said:
How do you know that? I don't think anyone would know unless it's tried.

And that's my main point. It doesn't even have to necessarily be about bringing a set set of studios as "first party" for Valve, it could be as simple as openign up a pgoram where developers cna pitch their ideas, and then have Valve publish the best ones alogn with budgets capable of bringing out the best in each game.

Basically, what they had been doing internally, just externally, since they seem to be focusing just on games like DOTA, why not put some money down on other types of "first party" PC games?

Not all of them are going to be Half-Life in terms of mind and market share, but some might be.

Why bother with the headache? You are simplifying the process and underestimating the effort and manpower it would take to pull this off. Most PC games are sold on Steam. They get a cut. They are a business that runs on 30% profit margins. Keep it simple.

Lime · May 16, 2017

I wonder what this means for that Vampire Bloodlines project that seemed to be in the pipeline

Lister · May 16, 2017

Vamphuntr said:
... unless you are making the next Skryim.

That's the thing, they will never have the next SKyrim, if they aren't ever investing in doing so, nto that that would necessarily be the end goal.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for some people to even get the concept when it comes to PC, but yet it is so obviously understood when it comes to consoles.

Software is what makes hardware paltforms attractive. And PC sure as hell has a lot of great software already, and will continue to, but I think AAA development, subsudized by those who stand to gain the most from it (like Valve) could only increase interest in the platform.

And even a couple of big AAA budget games would only be a drop in the bucket for someone like Valve. I'm not saying fund 10 The Old Republic MMO's or anything.

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