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Death of Spider-Man? Pffft. Death of Superman: Die Harder
- Thread starter Escape Goat
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Escape Goat
Member
Amir0x said:
yeah yeah, we know.
Escape Goat
Member
Amir0x said:
so what exactly did you set out to do in this thread? This is the second superhero comic thread you've come in and added nothing but how shitty they are. How about not posting in them?
Escape Goat
Member
Amir0x said:
How is this behavior any different from trolling? I'd seriously like to understand the distinction.
Teh Hamburglar said:
I love comics. It infuriates me that these creatively bankrupt writers constantly try to grab the headlines with their transparent marketing ploys about the death of this or that superhero who isn't EVER really going to be dead for more than five issues as the hideously convoluted writing evolves over the issues.
This is not trolling. It's a fucking real concern from someone who loves comics. If you do not like that, skip the posts. You are allowed not to be a petulant whining child every time someone posts something you don't like.
Threads are for negative and positive comments. Lesson learned. Proceed.
Escape Goat
Member
Amir0x said:
It infuriates me when someone enters a thread with the sole purpose of shitting all over it. So I guess we're both mad.
Sage advice.
Oh the irony.
We don't know yet. Just the logo from Death of Superman and the tag line was posted on twitter. Doomsday just might be making an appearance, not necessarily Supes death.
Painraze said:
Nah. Most likely they're going to MAKE the readers think they're doing that. So everyone complains about how lame it is. Then in a stroke of GENIUS they will do something different but equally lame. Then everyone will complain even harder, but buy the garbage anyway. Then after a year or two everyone will forget about it. Half a decade later they'll try killing Superman for a third time. Etc.
Teh Hamburglar said:
Do you have some reason I'm wrong? Threads only get "shitted on" when people like you spend eighteen posts whining about someone being negative. In the other thread, I provided several substantial posts about my concerns - from a long lived comic book fan who USED to like superhero comics too. You still complained I was shitting on the thread. I would love to like them again.
The reason I posted in THIS topic is that it's more evidence for the fuel flaming my anger. It's the type of manufactured hype around the "death" of a superhero, but whose writers lack the conviction or ability to take risks that would make these stories compelling or even a decent read.
It's not to "shit" on the topic. If you do not have any counter point or you don't like negativity, skip the posts. It's that easy.
I'm done unless you have something new to add.
Escape Goat
Member
duckroll said:
Often times its used as a shock value ploy to get readers, but on rare occasion you get a writer who actually tries to explore death and loss with a character that can't die (because then we'd have no story cuz the main character is dead).
When you look at it that way its less annoying than taking it at face value "Oh, hes died again? pfft."
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
And this is why I read manga despite the bullshit that also goes on there.
Doomsday is a terrible villain. I don't really know why DC keeps trying to make him out to be something worthwhile. There's nothing interesting about the character, nor have they ever tried doing anything interesting with the character. It's kinda the same with Bane in Batman. Moronic throwaway monster-of-the-week villain given more importance than he deserves simply by association with a lame shock value DEATH OF A HERO storyline.
Bleach is basically an American comic book at this point.
Regulus Tera said:
Bleach is basically an American comic book at this point.
I think the problem there duckroll is they try to create a villain with some ridiculous standard of power, thinking this is going to provide the tension that "hey, maybe this guy can actually stand toe to toe with hero X, Y or Z." In reality, it serves to undercut the tension... we know the hero will always come back, so the only purpose in reading is just to see the type of destruction they leave in their wake.
If you add some character to a villain, give that villain some intelligence to try to find a way to dismantle a powerful superhero, that tends to work better. It's why Lex Luthor has been such an iconic Superman villain for so long; why Batman is so compelling (because he has to use his wits to defeat foes, not any 'super powers').
If you add some character to a villain, give that villain some intelligence to try to find a way to dismantle a powerful superhero, that tends to work better. It's why Lex Luthor has been such an iconic Superman villain for so long; why Batman is so compelling (because he has to use his wits to defeat foes, not any 'super powers').
spindashing
Banned
Bruce Wayne "died" before this trend started being cool.
He is hipster.
He is hipster.
They've actually been doing some pretty decent stuff with Bane. They got him off the venom juice that was making him all roid-ragey and put him on this mercenary team, The Secret Six. It's sort of an action/semi-comedy book. He has this complex father-daughter relationship with Scandal Savage. It's good stuff.duckroll said:Doomsday is a terrible villain. I don't really know why DC keeps trying to make him out to be something worthwhile. There's nothing interesting about the character, nor have they ever tried doing anything interesting with the character. It's kinda the same with Bane in Batman. Moronic throwaway monster-of-the-week villain given more importance than he deserves simply by association with a lame shock value DEATH OF A HERO storyline.
Bleach is basically an American comic book at this point.
He never was, and DC sort of went out of their way to tell you that he wasn't. He was trapped in the past, and recently made his way back to the present. Everyone just assumed he was dead, because they were, like, "Where's Bruce?" And no one was, like, "Here I am."
Escape Goat
Member
spindashing said:
You know, the main problem I have with killing ironic heroes in some hyped up dramatic fashion is that:
a) the writing is usually pretty bad and forced because it's more of a media event than an actual well thought out storyline.
b) even if A is not true, the real problem comes with the aftermath. They're not going to stop running the comic and just call it a day, and there's only so long they can pretend that the hero is "really" dead before bringing him back. That's just lame.
I hereby retract any negative comment I have made about Bane in this thread. :lol
a) the writing is usually pretty bad and forced because it's more of a media event than an actual well thought out storyline.
b) even if A is not true, the real problem comes with the aftermath. They're not going to stop running the comic and just call it a day, and there's only so long they can pretend that the hero is "really" dead before bringing him back. That's just lame.
Penguin said:
I hereby retract any negative comment I have made about Bane in this thread. :lol
Littleberu
Banned
duckroll said:
Oh, come on. That's the same thing as any plot lines that put the heroes in dangerous situation in any medias. What's the point in watching a James Bond movies if you know he's not going to die, then?
You read them because they are good stories. The Death of Superman was a good story. So many haters are talking so much about death being an issue when the common popular medias embraces life-threatening situation regularly.
JzeroT1437
Member
Wouldn't it be bombass if they actually killed him and he stayed dead for like 10 years?
duckroll said:
I wish they would actually KILL a hero once and all that went with it, and then started a reboot series for that character. At least that way you could keep the character around while having the sort of finality these stories tend to lack.
Littleberu said:
Let me ask you: What was good about it? What aspect of it was well written? We have a blatantly one-dimensional villain with absolutely no rhyme or reason to care for him, and 95% of the story is just Doomsday and Superman going back and forth in extremely drawn out fashion. Even the few parts with Lois are completely roll-eye worthy. It's hardly a story at all so much as it is a lame action scene coupled to an alarmist conclusion that was reverted with four dumb retarded supermen follow-ups and then Superman himself back.
See, Jean Grey is the one super-hero who you can't bitch about in regards to resurrection. She's the fucking Phoenix. Dying and coming back is what she does.Teh Hamburglar said:
This has been the case plenty of times, but there are actually a few really awesome "Death of.." storylines. Here's one I would recommend to people who aren't too familiar with continuity:
The Death of Captain Marvel
By Jim Starlin
Captain Marvel finds that he's got cancer, and while he's one of the strongest beings in the universe, he still has to come to terms with the fact that he's going to die. Hard as it may be to believe, and as funny as it might sound out of context, there's actually a very touching scene near the end with Thanos.
JzeroT1437
Member
Also, Superman was killed by Doomsday on November 18th, 1992. Chances are this is some kind of anniversary release and not a new story.
Littleberu
Banned
Amir0x said:
It's the fact that someone was stronger than the god-like Superman that was interesting to me. World Without Superman is far superior in my opinion, but Death of Superman was exciting in a "oh no they wouldn't" kind of way. The entire issue made of splash page is especially memorable to me.
It was kind of clumsy, I give you that, but it's memorable. It was a good story.
Amir0x said:
:lol Holy shit! Pot. Kettle.
duckroll said:Bleach is basically an American comic book at this point.
I don't know why I keep reading it, but I do and at this point I've got a feeling they may try to shift the focus to one of Ichigo's sisters like Toriyama tried to do with Gohan. Let's see a Spiderman book shift the focus to some super-powered son he had with MJ and still keep the Spiderman title.
Littleberu said:
So that's all it takes, I guess...
A dumb clogfooted villain with a lot of power surging through his bones for a story to be interesting? Writing really does take a second fiddle for comic fans, doesn't it?
It's like I'm five years old arguing with my brother that he can't have that many powers because it's "not fair." :/
Ah well, to each his own.
Dali said:
I never once complain about someone posting stuff I don't like. Instead, I tend to dissect dissenting viewpoints in extremely long-winded fashion. Conversational nuance is not your strong point.
JzeroT1437
Member
Not to make everyone here feel old, but this happened almost 20 years ago.
BattleMonkey
Member
Yea it sucks, because it's obviously just a cash grab. And even the fans who whine about it, are going to rush out and buy it and sales shoot through the roof. DC and Marvel never are going to change when the fanboys keep falling for this crap and it causing sales spikes.
Littleberu
Banned
Amir0x said:
Yeah, to each his own. I don't need to read Alan Moore's to pretend I'm entertain like some of my fellow Comic Books fans. I like to read exciting, pop stuff. You've got to remember that, even though it is now a nice media, Comics were always made to tell popular stories. I like what some made of it, but I can't deny I enjoy my big crossover events from times to times.
Yeah, I know Bruce would be back in Final Crisis. It didn't stop me from enjoying Return of Bruce Wayne (not all of it, but you get the idea).
Dali said:
I'm sorry you don't get selective memory, we have quotes for that. Including the fact that nearly all posts unanimously agreed I deconstructed your hilariously impotent criticism of the series. It's not at all surprising to me that your kneejerk commentary is a result of you being sore over getting eviscerated.
Amir0x said:
I've thought for years that this was the only way to keep the major superhero comics interesting. Simply keep re-inventing them, letting different artistic teams do limited runs that have a definite ending, or at least are not allowed to go on forever in order to protect copyright or continue to milk the cash cow or whatever.
I understand the frustration of super-heroes not having the weight of a real threat. The 4th wall is broken in that regards with people accepting that the deaths aren't real and they will be back (see recently Batman). That is a concern for me to because as time passes and they run the gamut of stories they can tell with these iconic characters they aren't allowing for continuation. They had a real chance at that with Dick Grayson and i'm really, REALLY sad they brought bruce back. That would have been truly something and a game changer if they hadn't done that and let the torch pass. Instead they were looking at the short term gain and not the long run.Amir0x said:
In regards to the original Superman Death arc I would say what made Doomsday a good character for that particular plot and what made it work was that he was a new character that Superman had no history of, he was just as powerful which tied into him being a one dimensional villain. You claim that as a negative but what you are missing is in this case THATS what made him the perfect villain in this regards. Doomsday had no ambitions, nothing to lose, nothing to gain, could not be reasoned with because he had no reason for his being except for (at that time) to simply destroy. He had no "HAHA i'm the villain and this is my plan and now you have the opportunity to stop me BWHAHHAH" moment, he had to be stopped, he had to be stopped now with no opportunity to plan and to do that superman had to go all out to do it. Thats what made it all work, kind of like those adreneline crisis moments where the shit hits the fan, you don't have time to think and you just do what you have to do. My biggest problem with Doomsday is what they did after all this and bringing him back and giving him backstory and a reason for being and all that. That to me is what ruined the character. I liked him better as just a chaotic unstoppable force of nature.
I love the thinking man villains as well just as much like Ras Al Ghul and Luthor, but just because I like them doesn't mean they are the answer for every situation and the story can't be good if they aren't in it. Keep in mind also the Death of Superman story is probably the main (at least most known and read) start of all this killing or breaking the superhero and bringing them back which has got us to the point we are today.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Penguin said:
Well, it could be worse. I mean, if you're a strong female character that is. Need some depth there? RAPE TIME!!!
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