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[V_Arnold]

Amir0x, Amir0x, you are doing the "my subjective feelings are facts" game again...

Anyway, for positive comments:
-Captain America Reborn was good
-Return of Bruce Wayne is awesome
-Death of Jean Gray (especially the one where she died on the moon, or at least lost her abilities, was a child then so I do not really remember ) was memorable.

We can argue all we want, but at the end of the day, big superheroes "die" and maybe come back or not, but it is not a "5 issues death", Batman has been gone for quite some time, so was Captain America gone for years. They was/were/are mourned, missed, and the stories have taken interesting turn.

So I cant wait to see what they will do with this.

b) even if A is not true, the real problem comes with the aftermath. They're not going to stop running the comic and just call it a day, and there's only so long they can pretend that the hero is "really" dead before bringing him back. That's just lame.

Well, I can only comment this for the case of Batman, where Dick came in, and for Captain America with Bucky wearing the shield and the uniform: the comics stayed, and they changed quite a bit for a long time, and for a newcomer/outsider, they still were "Batman/Cap" comics, but with a different man behind the mask. There are ways to deal with this.

 

[Foob]

oh fucking christ at the comicbook mainstream superhero industry. fuck it

HEY DO YOU LIKE SUPERHERO COMICS I CANT TELL

 

[Amir0x]

Amir0x, Amir0x, you are doing the "my subjective feelings are facts" game again...

And you are doing the wrongly interpreting forceful statement of opinions as this. *sigh*

HEY DO YOU LIKE SUPERHERO COMICS I CANT TELL

I like some. I used to like a lot more. Shit like this makes it difficult to continue goodwill.

 

[Dali]

nevermind. I'll just post where this belongs

 

[Boonoo]

I've thought for years that this was the only way to keep the major superhero comics interesting. Simply keep re-inventing them, letting different artistic teams do limited runs that have a definite ending, or at least are not allowed to go on forever in order to protect copyright or continue to milk the cash cow or whatever.

But they already pretty much do this. As a reader you just have to be good about jumping on and off at the right time (creative switch ups and story arc shifts mainly). As long as you follow creative and don't attempt read as through there's long term continuity things work really well.

 

[duckroll]

Oh, come on. That's the same thing as any plot lines that put the heroes in dangerous situation in any medias. What's the point in watching a James Bond movies if you know he's not going to die, then?

You read them because they are good stories. The Death of Superman was a good story. So many haters are talking so much about death being an issue when the common popular medias embraces life-threatening situation regularly.

I think the point is that there are lots of interesting stories you can tell without trying to convince the audience of something which everyone knows won't last. The point of James Bond movies are not about James Bond possibly dying, ever, so that's a really awful comparison to make. In fact, more often than not, it is about whether Bond can save someone else in time, or prevent a certain disaster from happening. Sometimes he does fail, and that keeps it interesting. There is tension even though the hero himself will obviously survive.

My problem is that when you hype up a DEATH OF MAJOR SUPERHERO storyline, I'm already turned off because I know it's not going to have any lasting effect beyond the planned run of the story arc. It's for sensationalism and hype. I hate that sort of shit. It's bad storytelling and good marketing. This is not something I will ever support as a creative narrative format. It's really lazy storytelling.

 

[FoneBone]

My problem is that when you hype up a DEATH OF MAJOR SUPERHERO storyline, I'm already turned off because I know it's not going to have any lasting effect beyond the planned run of the story arc. It's for sensationalism and hype. I hate that sort of shit. It's bad storytelling and good marketing. This is not something I will ever support as a creative narrative format. It's really lazy storytelling.

Nobody thought Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne would stay dead, but their "deaths" have had lasting effects on status quo and led to a lot of good stories.

But they already pretty much do this. As a reader you just have to be good about jumping on and off at the right time (creative switch ups and story arc shifts mainly). As long as you follow creative and don't attempt read as through there's long term continuity things work really well.

This, most "superhero comics suck" posts come from readers who are making the mistake (IMO) of following characters rather than creators. Of course, focusing on creators isn't an approach terribly welcoming for casual readers.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

..oh no not doomsday...the worst villain i mean...he was just..doomsday..why can you beat the JLA? cause he's doomsday. Beatdown the GL PLANET? yeah im doomsday. Beat Darkseids ass? yeah im doomsday. I think my favorite thing ever with doomsday was seeing him in JLA animated and watching badass supes lobotomize his ass in seconds. What a stupid character hes superman, kraven the hunter, darkseid, terrax , and the shiva project rolled into one big pile of wtf. Next time swallow your pride and call Lobo to wax his ass supes ugh. Hopefully this is misdirection maybe theyre talking about superboy...or super girl...krypto .

 

[WanderingWind]

My problem with all these types of stories is that they're usually based in the same mindset. We can't think of anything interesting, so let's just destroy something. Whether it's through killing off a character, raping a female lead, destroying entire cities, etc, it's always the same thing.

Lazy, ineffective and stupid writers destroy, while great memorable writers create. Often these stories read like inferior talents pulling down the works of greater creative minds because they know they could never match it.

 

[Escape Goat]

My problem with all these types of stories is that they're usually based in the same mindset. We can't think of anything interesting, so let's just destroy something. Whether it's through killing off a character, raping a female lead, destroying entire cities, etc, it's always the same thing.

Lazy, ineffective and stupid writers destroy, while great memorable writers create. Often these stories read like inferior talents pulling down the works of greater creative minds because they know they could never match it.

I would have to say Joss Wheddon treats death of his characters extremely well. They're always treated with a great story and the death means something. And its usually the character you like the most but when you read it you think "Thats probably the best way for them to go. It brings some kind of circular resolution to their character arc."

TV show isn't exactly comics but death episodes are big ratings grabbers. Buffy's mom, Tara, Jenny Calendar, Wesley, Fred, Cordelia, Doyle...holy shit he killed a lot of people. And Anya doesn't count. That was a throw away death in the last 2 minutes of the series :lol

 

[duckroll]

Nobody thought Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne would stay dead, but their "deaths" have had lasting effects on status quo and led to a lot of good stories.

Steve Rogers' death led to a great arc for a year or so. Then him coming back made for some really contrived and awful storytelling. I honestly expected better from Brubaker. He's a great writer, but even he couldn't make the return of Captain America feel anything more than forced and stupid. :/

 

[WanderingWind]

I would have to say Joss Wheddon treats death of his characters extremely well. They're always treated with a great story and the death means something. And its usually the character you like the most but when you read it you think "Thats probably the best way for them to go. It brings some kind of circular resolution to their character arc."

TV show isn't exactly comics but death episodes are big ratings grabbers. Buffy's mom, Tara, Jenny Calendar, Wesley, Fred, Cordelia, Doyle...holy shit he killed a lot of people. And Anya doesn't count. That was a throw away death in the last 2 minutes of the series :lol

See, but it this case it's A) Joss Whedon, whose work I generally love and B) his own characters and C) not comics.

Even with Whedon his deaths were hit or miss. Ms. Calendar and Buffy's mom were excellent. Everybody else, meh. He had and continues to have an extremely adverse reaction toward anything that could be considered a happy ending. Everybody ends up completely miserable in everything the man touches. People were surprised at Wash's death, but not me. Him and Zoe were the only completely happy people on the show, and considering she was the Whedon-esque bad ass femme fatale, he was the one who was going to die.

...what are we talking about? I could do the Whedon thing all day. :lol

 

[Relix]

They can only kill super heroes these days right? What a joke :lol Can't believe people read and enjoy this crap. Honestly. There's no consistency at all. Just do stuff for the lulz and a few sales. Meh

 

[Escape Goat]

See, but it this case it's A) Joss Whedon, whose work I generally love and B) his own characters and C) not comics.

Even with Whedon his deaths were hit or miss. Ms. Caledar and Buffy's mom were excellent. Everybody else, meh. He had and continues to have an extremely adverse reaction toward anything that could be considered a happy ending. Everybody ends up completely miserable in everything the man touches. People were suprised at Wash's death, but not me. Him and Zoe were the only completely happy people on the show, and considering she was the Whedon-esque badass femme fatale, he was the one who was going to die.

...what are we talking about? I could do the Whedon thing all day. :lol

My point was just that Joss has the right idea about death. You may not like the story he is telling but he has a story to tell. There are ramifications of this person missing from the group and it is explored. It wasn't a throw away shock value death.

 

[Viewt]

See, but it this case it's A) Joss Whedon, whose work I generally love and B) his own characters and C) not comics.

Even with Whedon his deaths were hit or miss. Ms. Calendar and Buffy's mom were excellent. Everybody else, meh. He had and continues to have an extremely adverse reaction toward anything that could be considered a happy ending. Everybody ends up completely miserable in everything the man touches. People were surprised at Wash's death, but not me. Him and Zoe were the only completely happy people on the show, and considering she was the Whedon-esque bad ass femme fatale, he was the one who was going to die.

...what are we talking about? I could do the Whedon thing all day. :lol

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men and the supposed death of

Spoiler

Kitty Pryde

. Which was great.

 

[Shiv47]

But they already pretty much do this. As a reader you just have to be good about jumping on and off at the right time (creative switch ups and story arc shifts mainly). As long as you follow creative and don't attempt read as through there's long term continuity things work really well.

No, I'm talking complete re-inventions of a character, meaning different settings, different alter egos (or at least fairly different from what went before if you're going to use the same secret identity), everything. Not just some bullshit "A Bold New Era in Superhero X's Life!" No continuity, absolute clean slate every time. The only thing that would stay the same is the core concept of Spider-Man/Superman/etc/etc, and even that could be tweaked where it suited the story.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

hard not to know the facts with shit like this, isn't it?

Yet Grant Morrison, Jason Aaron, Matt Fraction, Jonathan Hickman, and Rick Remender refute your hypothesis in new superhero books every week pretty much (although there might be an occasional week where none of them have new books out.)

 

[WanderingWind]

My point was just that Joss has the right idea about death. You may not like the story he is telling but he has a story to tell. There is ramifications of this person missing from the group and it is explored. It wasn't a throw away shock value death.

I agree. But he too, fell into the trap of running out of ideas, so hey, let's kill some fools. See...

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men and the supposed death of

Spoiler

Kitty Pryde

. Which was great.

...this right here. Which was terrible for the exact reasons I stated in my initial post. It was silly, contrived and undone so quick it was as if it had never happened. Look at the storyline where

Spoiler

she quits the team after Colossus' "death." That's one way to tell an interesting story without having to kill off a character. When she came back it was far more believable than when she'd died.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Yet Grant Morrison, Jason Aaron, Matt Fraction, Jonathan Hickman, and Rick Remender refute your hypothesis in new superhero books every week pretty much (although there might be an occasional week where none of them have new books out.)

Refute what? Couple good arcs or issues do not magically make the horrible shit go away.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Refute what? Couple good arcs or issues do not magically make the horrible shit go away.

But it refutes the idea that superhero comics are worthless garbage. Especially when so many of them run circles around celebrated non-superhero books like The Walking Dead.

 

[Boonoo]

No, I'm talking complete re-inventions of a character, meaning different settings, different alter egos (or at least fairly different from what went before if you're going to use the same secret identity), everything. Not just some bullshit "A Bold New Era in Superhero X's Life!" No continuity, absolute clean slate every time. The only thing that would stay the same is the core concept of Spider-Man/Superman/etc/etc, and even that could be tweaked where it suited the story.

A clean slate every time would get old real fast when creators are usually only on a character for what like 6-18 months? You'd be swamped in origin stories. If they're going to take it that far they might as well just do new characters (and plenty of people are in creator owned books).

The appeal of mainstream superhero books, though, is that there is a steady background that you can work with (as creator and reader). You don't need to reinvent the wheel every time you set out to tell a story. Mainstream heroes are just vehicles for different stories--you can almost look at them as mini genres. There's very much a "Batman" type story and a "Spider-Man" type story.

All-Star Super-Man was great with this. Just a nice 12 issue story that, due to how it was established and marketed, was read as just a nice 12 issue story. It could have been printed in the main Super Man line, though, without changing a thing. The next arc would probably just spend an issue re-figuring the status-quo.

 

[Amir0x]

But it refutes the idea that superhero comics are worthless garbage. Especially when so many of them run circles around celebrated non-superhero books like The Walking Dead.

They're not ALL worthless garbage, although I refute the idea that any of those authors are participating in any interesting current superhero stories - I've tried many of them, and they're all pretty bad imo. Being a talented writer doesn't mean you're always going to make quality books.

But anyway, clearly my anger about the current state of superhero comics have led you to believe I hate the superhero genre. I have a low opinion of the genre in general due to the low standards of the writing in general, but I have a decent sized list of superhero comics I believe counter these standards and are what I look for. I don't believe any currently running story arcs you'd list go against this.

(Side Note: Hickman and Remender are just awful though imo, so it looks like our basic disagreement would go even as far as to what constitutes quality writing)

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

They're not ALL worthless garbage, although I refute the idea that any of those authors are participating in any interesting current superhero stories - I've tried many of them, and they're all pretty bad imo. Being a talented writer doesn't mean you're always going to make quality books.

But anyway, clearly my anger about the current state of superhero comics have led you to believe I hate the superhero genre. I have a low opinion of the genre in general due to the low standards of the writing in general, but I have a decent sized list of superhero comics I believe counter these standards and are what I look for. I don't believe any currently running story arcs you'd list go against this.

That's my only assertion, and of course one that is purely subjective. I believe that each of the writers I listed are participating in at least one if not more current storylines that warrant legitimate critical appreciation.

But, absolutely, cada uno a su gusto.

 

[Cyan]

This isn't real, right?

I mean, they're just trolling the Spiderman people, right? The Doomsday thing is a dead giveaway.

P.S.

Spoiler

Squirrel Girl

did it.

 

[bathala]

the good thing about this death comics is how they r resurrected.

will it be alien, clone, or alternate universe.

for once I would like to see, the next issue is like nothing happened. don't even acknowledge the death happened.

 

[Foob]

the good thing about this death comics is how they r resurrected.

will it be alien, clone, or alternate universe.

for once I would like to see, the next issue is like nothing happened. don't even acknowledge the death happened.

what the fuck?

 

[TheKaeptain]

Doomsday is a terrible villain. I don't really know why DC keeps trying to make him out to be something worthwhile. There's nothing interesting about the character, nor have they ever tried doing anything interesting with the character. It's kinda the same with Bane in Batman. Moronic throwaway monster-of-the-week villain given more importance than he deserves simply by association with a lame shock value DEATH OF A HERO storyline.



Bleach is basically an American comic book at this point.

Bane is a lot more than monster of the weak.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

(Side Note: Hickman and Remender are just awful though imo, so it looks like our basic disagreement would go even as far as to what constitutes quality writing)

Most likely. Their Fantastic Four and Franken-Castle, respectively, are pretty much classics of the genre.

Here's me on Punisher #13, to elucidate:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=1837

 

[FoneBone]

I also vote for SHIELD as one of the single best things Marvel's ever published, but I might be a little weird

 

[Foob]

Most likely. Their Fantastic Four and Franken-Castle, respectively, are pretty much classics of the genre.

Here's me on Punisher #13, to elucidate:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=1837

The highest praise I can give for Hickman is that he took what used to be hands-down my least favorite Marvel published book, and turned it into what is far and away my favorite book.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I also vote for SHIELD as one of the single best things Marvel's ever published, but I might be a little weird

Yeah, SHIELD is incredible stuff.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I am so sick of people getting their panties in a bunch. can we at least wait to see what the god damn story is about? is it possible?

edit: for all we know, maybe superman of our universe goes to an earth where Superman stayed dead or something. Christ on a stick, we've had stories like these for 40 to 50 years and IT HAS NOT AND WILL NOT KILL THE INDUSTRY!!!! WILL. NOT. KILL. THE. INDUSTRY.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Superman's definitely died before, I'm sure of it. Oh well, the only DC title I actually read is Batman and Robin and that hasn't been affected at all by an iconic superhero dy-- wait a minute!

Spoiler

Dick Grayson > Bruce Wayne

 

[G-Fex]

I agree with the death thing. It's a little overdone. Maybe they can actually afford to kill someone off less important later? Even then it's likely a cheap awful death that they didn't deserve.

But I guess a death is the only way to get someone interested.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I agree with the death thing. It's a little overdone. Maybe they can actually afford to kill someone off less important later? Even then it's likely a cheap awful death that they didn't deserve.

But I guess a death is the only way to get someone interested.

He's not even dying again. Doomsday is coming back.

 

[G-Fex]

He's not even dying again. Doomsday is coming back.

Oh well he'll get him with his rainbow beams that shoot out of his fingers that make a miniature superman.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

i still have my copy of superman 75 but i took it out of the plastic wrapping so i dont think its going to be able to put my through college now

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Oh well he'll get him with his rainbow beams that shoot out of his fingers that make a miniature superman.

Christ, I would so love that.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

I am so sick of people getting their panties in a bunch. can we at least wait to see what the god damn story is about? is it possible?

edit: for all we know, maybe superman of our universe goes to an earth where Superman stayed dead or something. Christ on a stick, we've had stories like these for 40 to 50 years and IT HAS NOT AND WILL NOT KILL THE INDUSTRY!!!! WILL. NOT. KILL. THE. INDUSTRY.

Quoted for emphasis and as a plea for sanity. We have ONE teaser picture and ONE tagline and NOTHING TO GO ON and people are going ape-scat over "comic book death" as hallmarks of a dying, creatively bankrupt industry.

 

[brotkasten]

I have no clue about American comics, so please pardon my ignorance. I'm wondering if DC and Marvel will ever drop the 'current' stuff and if we'll ever get new Superheroes. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men. That shit is over 50 years old. Why not drop the old stuff and create some new and fresh instead of trying to squeeze the same old characters in new stories? Using the same characters for such a long time just feels lazy. I wouldn't even know where to start. There are X timelines, X variations etc. WTH? Again, I'm sorry and I'm sure you get posts like this in every comic thread, but I'm genuinely curious about that.

 

[G-Fex]

Well it is the death of superman symbol. Why would they bring that back if they're not going to kill Supes?

 

[Mr. Sam]

What happened to that storyline about Superman walking America?

 

[StoOgE]

does DC even have a suitable Superman replacement?

why not just make superman go evil or something? have they done that yet?

There are like 20 different versions of Bad Supes at this point.

Superboy Prime being the best.

 

[WillyFive]

They are killing him off again?

They must be trying to get a repeat performance of the Doomsday story.

Reboots....

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Well it is the death of superman symbol. Why would they bring that back if they're not going to kill Supes?

they're not killing him, and anyways he's died twice more since he came back and nobody blinked (read JLA the Obsidian age, it's about an ancient Justice league that is brutal in it's methods, great great great storytelling)

What happened to that storyline about Superman walking America?

what's his face dropped the book so.... *shrug*

 

[thetrin]

What happened to that storyline about Superman walking America?

JMS' run was total crap. He should go back to Spider-man.

In other news, Grant Morrison continues to set the world ablaze with the greatest Batman storytelling this side of 52.

I agree with the death thing. It's a little overdone. Maybe they can actually afford to kill someone off less important later? Even then it's likely a cheap awful death that they didn't deserve.

But I guess a death is the only way to get someone interested.

This DOES happen, but they're lesser known, so no one knows about it. There was no mainstream news post when The Question died, was there?

 

[dvdjamm]

Waiting for The Death of Jughead


Let's just say that Dilton Doiley & Big Ethel had a plan...

 

[mjc]

I think one of the best handled "deaths" and return was Thor. He dies in a manner which makes sense for his character, stays gone for a good four or five years, and comes back but goes through a host of changes.

 

[G-Fex]

What happened to that storyline about Superman walking America?

I'm pretty sure he quit when he reached Florida or Texas.

Question died? WTF?!?!?!?! NOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[dvdjamm]

Such a bad-ass cover image as well

Where did he get a saddle from?