AlimNassor
Banned
You misunderstood me. I didn't say feminism was harmful to men. I meant these gender movements are sexist, we have to fix the core problem that involves both sexes or we;ll never find equality.
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Anita Sarkeesians First Tropes vs. Women in Games Video May Come Out Next Month
- Thread starter sTeLioSco
- Start date
You misunderstood me. I didn't say feminism was harmful to men. I meant these gender movements are sexist, we have to fix the core problem that involves both sexes or we;ll never find equality.
So let me ask you. And I'm not saying you think this, or trying to put you on the spot. I'm genuinely curious.
Do you believe only men, inherently have a problem with objectification? That only men love to objectify the human body for gratification and pleasure?
So this is an entirely male problem, and we can't contain ourselves?
I'll be honest and say, I don't have the research or background on this. My assumption (and that's all I have, without being an expert in the field of human behavior) - is that you see a larger trend of female objectification, because generally, males in the past have dominated fields (such as ad agencies, entertainment etc.).
In my mind, I think some people view men as these uncontrollable savages, that can't contain their sexual behaviors. And that women are above this, and sex doesn't sell to them the way it sells to men. I've always viewed this as a trait by both genders. But that, the inequality comes in the people running things - hence an unbalance in objectification in the media.
I think this is the source of "Anita says Mirror's Edge is too hard for girls!":
I have no idea if the quote in that image is accurate, but it seems like it's what spawned the belief. She thinks the control scheme is overcomplicated, that if it were simpler the game would be more enjoyed by gamers, and females are of particular interest as she believes the game is a positive experience for females.
It's been ages since I played--is it just that she wants the bumpers mapped to face buttons? Is that it? I don't remember a lot of complexity with the controls, but I think that's what she's getting at?
I have no idea if the quote in that image is accurate, but it seems like it's what spawned the belief. She thinks the control scheme is overcomplicated, that if it were simpler the game would be more enjoyed by gamers, and females are of particular interest as she believes the game is a positive experience for females.
It's been ages since I played--is it just that she wants the bumpers mapped to face buttons? Is that it? I don't remember a lot of complexity with the controls, but I think that's what she's getting at?
Then what's the matter with feminism and its efforts to fix the problem of inequality? How is it sexist?
EDIT: to the post above, for the most part /v/ is not a reputable source for anything.
Joke?
I think this is the source of "Anita says Mirror's Edge is too hard for girls!":
I have no idea if the quote in that image is accurate, but it seems like it's what spawned the belief. She thinks the control scheme is overcomplicated, that if it were simpler the game would be more enjoyed by gamers, and females are of particular interest as she believes the game is a positive experience for females.
It's been ages since I played--is it just that she wants the bumpers mapped to face buttons? Is that it? I don't remember a lot of complexity with the controls, but I think that's what she's getting at?
Anita is confusing. In her past works, she said that when women take on the traits of the action hero, it's just males projecting masculine traits onto a female. Doesn't Mirrors Edge basically do this?
I think this is the source of "Anita says Mirror's Edge is too hard for girls!":
I have no idea if the quote in that image is accurate, but it seems like it's what spawned the belief. She thinks the control scheme is overcomplicated, that if it were simpler the game would be more enjoyed by gamers, and females are of particular interest as she believes the game is a positive experience for females.
It's been ages since I played--is it just that she wants the bumpers mapped to face buttons? Is that it? I don't remember a lot of complexity with the controls, but I think that's what she's getting at?
Ah yea that was it. It's 4chan though so not sure if it's true or not. I really hope it isn't. Don't want Anita to ruin Mirror's Edge 2.
polyh3dron
Banned
wow.
she should get the mental gymnastics gold medal for this.
anita can basically come up with a rationalization for any kind of depiction of a female to be objectification no matter what it is.
How is feminism as a gender movement that focuses on the patriarchy's effect on women sexist? Are groups that focus on helping racial minorities racist? A lot of the issues concerning male gender identity are also addressed in the movement but these are not in the forefront.
There's also nothing wrong with forming a group that primarily focuses on the negative effects on men in a patriarchal society. When I first heard of MRA I hoped that was what it was, but unfortunately that was not the case. :/
Yeah, I'm disinclined to believe 4chan for anything, I've just had no luck so far finding a publicly-accessible transcript of the DICE talk so I can't prove it either way.
The one reason I think the quote has a shot at being valid is because it's a relatively neutral statement. If you're going to make up character-assassinating crap, you'd think they'd pick something stronger than "maybe make the game more accessible next time."
Funchameleon
Banned
Perhaps it is Anita Sarkeesian that is the true sexist *dusts off hands, a cloud of reason and logic fills the room*
It's not, if they would make it into an Assassin's Creed "hold right mouse to parkour" game I would cry.
I think the fear for some people is, there will be an imbalance by putting too much effort into one gender over the other. These same people will point towards college statistics, and how you are seeing a drop off of men attending, and a big increase in women attending.
So the fear is, in trying to achieve equality for females, you will then see it swing the other way where male's are now on unequal footing.
I don't agree with this - for obvious reasons. But I tink that is the rationale/fear.
It's the internet, and she's Anita Sarkeesian. She could say "puppies are cute" and the spin machine would gin up some way to try to slander her.
SolidSnakex
Member
That Mirror's Edge quote can't be real. The controls already feel very simplified and straightforward. ME even has climb and jump mapped to the same button, while she apparently thinks it would be a better idea to map them to separate buttons.
You have to wonder what she did to piss people so much that now people are starting rumours about her working at EA, wow. Especially if you take into account the whole punching flash game and the hate messages.
I mean I get the jealousy angle about how she litterally got 150k to play games and to write about them. I also get she doesn't seem to know about games as much as many hardcore gamers and that it annoys people that she makes mistakes like in that Bayo video. I can also see how some people are bit disgusted she used the hateful trolling/bullying against her to sell herself and her project at conference but Goddamn this is getting out of hand.
I mean I get the jealousy angle about how she litterally got 150k to play games and to write about them. I also get she doesn't seem to know about games as much as many hardcore gamers and that it annoys people that she makes mistakes like in that Bayo video. I can also see how some people are bit disgusted she used the hateful trolling/bullying against her to sell herself and her project at conference but Goddamn this is getting out of hand.
The problem with the quote though is that it is so comprehensive it reads like a transcript. If it is a quote taken verbatim by an attendee why not share the rest of the transcript? Or if there is a recording why not share that too to further validate their claim? I've seen misinformation been spread like this before on /v/. Ironically enough I can't recall any examples, but the general user base is rife with conspiracy theorists and the like - people all to willing to take other posters' 'facts' at face value. It's easy to push an agenda on 4chan.
It may have started with how male dominated the culture and misoginy was a completly aceptable trait in that society .... and then it stayed in society in the same way racism is still encrusted (see the doll experiment still working today) in society.
Human males can hold thenselfs perfectable, but there are lots of societal influences that makes even women objectify women (1st sentence of page 2 : ""It's both men and women doing this to women," Gervais said. "So don't blame the men here."")
The problem is that like racism, it is not even one bit healthy to propagate those ideas.
Baconsammy
Banned
You say 'feminism' like it means one thing. It doesn't. Feminist groups are at odds with one another over what is and isn't beneficial. Anita is the enemy of an entire group of feminists that believe feminism is about empowerment (sexual and otherwise).
That is without question true. It's also true that there's a lot of necessary and valid criticism of her, which she seemingly dismisses as easily as the blind hate/rage.
There is a lot of unnecessary hate/rage towards Anita.
I don't like her, because I think she's a hack. I've seen/read her work, and I think she misses the point, and is sometimes sexist herself. I think someone more capable should have taken this on. But the backlash she gets is so beyond irrational and laughable.
Seriously, wait for the shitstorm once she releases her first video.
I wasn't promoting it, or saying it's healthy. Just that, I think human beings genuinely love sex. And companies love to exploit this.
But great posts. I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and I do understand your point of view a lot better now.
Funchameleon
Banned
I don't have to wonder at all. She's an opinionated woman trying to speak about feminist topics. Either of those two attributes would explain it, having both in this industry guarantees it.
faceless007
Member
*blush* I really don't think my contributions are that much more valuable than you two's, and I've often thought the same about your posts. But I certainly appreciate the support.
You must noticed that 2 days after she was also hired by the interdisciplinary digital lab of the Umeå University
That doesn't substantiate the claims the blog made. As idlethreats explained, being hired for a speaking engagement is nowhere close to the same thing as being hired as a consultant. The former is a onetime fee to give a speech that may or may not have any effect on the audience. The latter is usually employed for a significant period of time to give direct input into specific projects, with the expectation that her input will be reflected in the company's work.
If Sarkeesian's relationship with EA is the former, she doesn't really have an obligation to disclose that anymore than any public intellectual does for the numerous speaking engagements they do, but she did anyway so good for her. But the screengrab makes much stronger allegations, that 1) EA hired her to provide direct creative input into the direction of 2-3 key DICE franchises, 2) EA is ordering DICE to incorporate her input, and 3) this is all part of a concerted effort by EA to be seen as leading the charge against sexism.
I put those in order of increasing absurdity. I don't see any evidence of any of these claims, but it seems patently ridiculous to me that EA, a publisher that shamelessly panders to the dudebro crowd and prides itself on dominating the AAA market, would decide it would try to rejuvenate its public image in the AAA sphere by hiring someone who has never worked in a game design role in secret so that she can give advice on franchises that have almost nothing to do with females or femininity in any form (Battlefield and Medal of Honor), and that somehow this will improve EA's standing in that audience, when EA already has an incredibly successful franchise that's enormously popular with women (The Sims).
And EA is notorious for watering down its franchises in subsequent iterations, so if they want to make Mirror's Edge 2 with more Press A to Awesome, they certainly don't need Anita to tell them how.
wasn't twilight a big hit?
because the main character is pretty much the dark edgy alpha male, and women of every age went crazy for him
Well then by all means. I'd love to be enlightened about sub-sects of the post-modern feminist movement and which one's aren't interested in equality.
Really lazy link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Sex_Wars
Goes a lot deeper than that, and lol at linking Wiki. I would post more, but I'm away from my usual computer, and am working on my school project. I guess check this out, he goes over it at one point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
pt 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI
(Part 1 is kind of heavy handed about her research style. Don't entirely agree on this part. But watch the whole thing. I think part 2 goes over the in-fighting between the feminist movement. EDIT: Yea, 3:30 into that 2nd link).
I'll just assume I'm reading this wrong.
I think this is the source of "Anita says Mirror's Edge is too hard for girls!":
I have no idea if the quote in that image is accurate, but it seems like it's what spawned the belief. She thinks the control scheme is overcomplicated, that if it were simpler the game would be more enjoyed by gamers, and females are of particular interest as she believes the game is a positive experience for females.
It's been ages since I played--is it just that she wants the bumpers mapped to face buttons? Is that it? I don't remember a lot of complexity with the controls, but I think that's what she's getting at?
The image on this post is in the tweet I posted that she said that she was there.
If you look at the bottom of the image you can even see EA's tweet
That is the oldest source of the quote ... so ...kinda hard to believe, specialy because the dude on 4chan don't look like someone who works at dice =P
She said LOTS of reasons why females don't game and she NEVER said anything about complicated controls.
She talked about sexism, violence and everything ... not about how girls don't have coordination =P
Not even one bit.
Feminism is about gender equality and this means helping men where they are not in equal grounds, like laws focused on domestic violence also working with cases wich the wife beat the husband or even homosexual male domestic violence
wasn't twilight a big hit?
because the main character is pretty much the dark edgy alpha male, and women of every age went crazy for him
Sex =/= "true love"
Twilight is a crap mormon tale of "true love"
The closest we have of a sexualized male there is Jacob and even then he is pretty much ignored and becomes a pedophile =P
edit :
Must be because of how the human brain can't objectify the male body as much as the female body or because women in general don't answer very well to sexual advertisings (I would blame how society surpress the sexuality of girls for this one)... but if you want to sell something to heterosexual women, sexualising a male is not the right way
edit 2 :
There are even an ignored part of feminism that hates women =P
But when a person say they are feminist, they usualy fits in the Third wave feminism wich is about equaily as possible
Baconsammy
Banned
Thanks. I was putting together some links when I saw your post.
God I hope so. Because it sure as hell does sell. Very well too. They don't put studs on female lust books because of their brains.
There have been people exclaiming that they wish someone more capable was in this woman's position, that she's a hack, doesn't know about videogames, etc.; To that, I'll say this:
The loudest voices that get the most exposure and get noticed by the most people don't really need to be the most well-versed on the subject. They just have to be good at getting something across and promoting themselves and their cause. They put more work into getting the exposure and the reach.
Is it a detriment to the whole argument if she gets some "videogame knowledge" wrong somewhere? Maybe. But the trade-off (reaching more people with a message) seems worth it. If this gets people to talk about or even notice these issues, I'd say she's done enough.
One person alone isn't going to put this thing to rest, but pushing it along surely doesn't hurt.
The loudest voices that get the most exposure and get noticed by the most people don't really need to be the most well-versed on the subject. They just have to be good at getting something across and promoting themselves and their cause. They put more work into getting the exposure and the reach.
Is it a detriment to the whole argument if she gets some "videogame knowledge" wrong somewhere? Maybe. But the trade-off (reaching more people with a message) seems worth it. If this gets people to talk about or even notice these issues, I'd say she's done enough.
One person alone isn't going to put this thing to rest, but pushing it along surely doesn't hurt.
So... what are they selling here? And before you claim that this wasn't used as promotional material for the terribad movies, it was. I clearly remember being forced to watch a trailer for this shit were the werewolf rips his clothes off. Or something.
I also remember hearing a bunch of girls next to me talk about how hot he is and how they want to bang his brains out.
Is Twilight an elaborate ad for gyms?
Funchameleon
Banned
wasn't twilight a big hit?
because the main character is pretty much the dark edgy alpha male, and women of every age went crazy for him
Notice how a lot of erotica targeted at women happens to be in book form? It's because it relies heavily on characterization and emotion, which is anything but objectification. The Twilight boys have nice bodies in the films but it's thematically appropriate and the (somewhat unfortunate) success of the franchise comes from the writing.
polyh3dron
Banned
it's verbal objectification
Funchameleon
Banned
You might be joking, you might not. Such is this thread.
timetokill
Banned
Bullshit...
hahahah, such bullshit.
I'm sorry, you don't know what you're talking about, at all.
You know when you see a men's underwear ad and there's a chiseled dude in pretty much nothing, great lighting, etc.? That's a sexualized male, and it's advertised towards women. "But it's men's underwear!" you say. And who buy's men's underwear? Women, for their men.
There are a ton of other examples, but anyway. I suggest you drop this line of reasoning, because it's bullshit.
Arguing about who's using sex appeal in their media seems pretty moot when the issues go much deeper than that.
I like how you pepper a argument against sexism by making a sexist argument. As a grown man, what woman is buying your underwear? Or do you mean your mom?
I like how you pepper a argument against sexism by making a sexist argument. As a grown man, what woman is buying your underwear? Or do you mean your mom?
Midnight Bliss
Member
Why do feminists always seem to ignore the awesome women in video games? Wait I don't need to answer that. 
akidnamededdy
Banned
It couldn't possibly be that she's already made several factual errors when talking about games she's supposedly played, leading some to believe that she may be underqualified to perform the task she has received more than twenty times the funding she needed to do and has already fallen behind on, could it?
I mean yeah I'm sure there are tons of cavemen hating on her because she's an opinionated woman just trying to speak out, but let's not pretend that's the only reason she's come under attack.
Funchameleon
Banned
Some women are equally excited by the male form and are just as guilty of objectifying men but this does not disprove the assertion that women generally face much more objectification than men.
Do people even read what I post ?
Science for your first "bullshit" and Science for your second "bullshit"
"sexual behavior appeared to reflect devotion and commitment."
Sorry, but an underwear ad don't show those... and even if your "my woman buys my underwear" argument fits, there is a MUCH bigger market for single males for underwear, since the cliche say they wash less
edit :
Why do feminists always seem to ignore the awesome women in video games? Wait I don't need to answer that.
People always say good things about Portal and Mirror's Edge and Beyong Good and Evil and ..... =|
I think this is the source of "Anita says Mirror's Edge is too hard for girls!":
I have no idea if the quote in that image is accurate, but it seems like it's what spawned the belief. She thinks the control scheme is overcomplicated, that if it were simpler the game would be more enjoyed by gamers, and females are of particular interest as she believes the game is a positive experience for females.
It's been ages since I played--is it just that she wants the bumpers mapped to face buttons? Is that it? I don't remember a lot of complexity with the controls, but I think that's what she's getting at?
Yeah, in Mirror's edge the main movement actions were tied to the bumpers and triggers. And for a damn good reason too. It means the player never has to take their thumb off the control sticks to jump, which is essential for maneuvers such as walljumps. And she's arguing for more traditional button mapping, even though that would mean taking your thumb off the right stick in order to jump.
Don't quit your day job, Anita.
Yeah, I had a suspicion that this video was going to pop up. Disregarding my problems with the argument presented in that video, and especially how it is framed (Sarkeesian juxtaposed with Hilary Clinton inviting draconian censorship), the sex debate is interesting. Unfortunately the source video of the sex-positive feminist is now private so we reach a bit of dead end here on this side of the argument. But that's the core issue here. It's essentially a debate of feminist conservatism and liberalism. A debate. There is no resolution. The best case scenario would be for two series on videogames, demonstrating the ideologies and criticisms of both sides. While you may not agree with Sarkeesian's brand of feminism, it is still better to have her than no visible commentator at all. Hopefully her series will ignite a productive feminist debate, in search of how to move forward, that will replace the reductive anti-feminist discourse we have seen over the past 8 months.
Road of Ease
Member
This. It's surreal how much unfounded and distorted information is tolerated just because it puts Anita in a bad light.
Also, there are tons of parts in those "Instig8ive Journalism" that deserve big [citation needed] warnings.
You have posted one movie. I fail to see a compelling argument here.
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