Dictator93
Member
there is some truth to that indeed. But Manuel would definitely no be the one to say something about it. It would be a press erelease with some sort of substantiated reasoning. Not a forum post.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
AMD Mantle Thread - Time to shake some things up!
- Thread starter KojiKnight
- Start date
Winterblink
Member
So honest question here, and I don't want to start a manufacturer war here or anything but, is there any likelihood that NVIDIA will begin to support this?
I like the idea of a new API that one-ups DirectX, and if it's good for the industry hopefully it gets some wider adoption.
I like the idea of a new API that one-ups DirectX, and if it's good for the industry hopefully it gets some wider adoption.
alexandros
Banned
Maybe? They'll obviously have to respond in some way, either by coming up with their own solution or by using Mantle themselves. The first sounds a lot more plausible though.
AMD decided to build a API to compensate what they cannot achieve with their hardware I guess Nvidia will continue to either push their hardware and OpenGL or in worst case build their own API, I hope this will not be the case cause developing PC games in the future is gonna be a real nightmare for developers.
I think it's far too early to say.
If Mantle ends up being everything we could want and more, and AMD does everything they can to get it widespread and supported by a lot of devs, along with keeping their promise of Mantle being available for everyone, and AMD doesn't try to make Nvidia jump through hoops to incorporate it for their graphics cards, then there's a decent chance - especially if they make it an open standard.
But it all relies on everything going pretty much perfectly, and AMD being nice to Nvidia.
This post from the other thread summarizes my thoughts on the subject:
It might still happen, never say never and all, but I don't consider it likely.
Edit: thinking about it some more, since AMD is also in the business of selling weaker (particularly in sequential performance) CPUs to gamers they do have something to gain by generally improving even open APIs for CPU dependency/multithreading.
KojiKnight
Member
Not really... DirectX isn't going away... if competing APIs come out from both vendors, games will either support everything, or DX + money hatted API, or just DX if they are going cheap.
As for Nvidia going mantle? The way it sounds, AMD is willing to ditch Mantle for another API if it gives the same/similar results if it becomes a standard. Undoubtedly AMD would PREFER Mantle to be successful and that their talks in the coming months would help further it as a standard... but you know, even if doesn't, hopefully at least SOME of the improvements make it in some form or another.
alexandros
Banned
The ideal solution would be for both to push OpenGL as hard as they can.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Eh, AMD expends money on research and development for the Open GL standard, which of course is open source and benefits competetiors.
I don't think there's much to ponder there. It's possible they just want the credit for pushing change.
I don't think there's much to ponder there. It's possible they just want the credit for pushing change.
Winterblink
Member
So (and my understanding of this is limited) have they architected their hardware to take advantage of Mantle or is it purely their drivers making use of it? If the latter, and if the API's open enough, other manufacturers should be able to hook in easily enough.
If the former, then others have a bit of work to do to catch up, or as others have suggested, come up with their own solutions.
From the other thread;
iamshadowlark
Banned
Neither of those are completely accurate. They've designed mantle to work with all their GCN hardware, not the other way around.
Apart of the package is a thinner driver layer but it's not the whole package.
They've never said that its currently an open standard but theyve been lobbying for other IHVs to come together and make it an open standard.
Winterblink
Member
Gotcha, thanks for the explanation.
Yeah, I cant find it either .. That's a slide from repi's presentation right?They've never said that its currently an open standard but theyve been lobbying for other IHVs to come together and make it an open standard.
I agree, but I can't see things clearing up until later this year when AMD say the API will be open to scrutiny by all.
Mantle only exists because of AMD's console hardware. They saw an opportunity to use that position to their advantage in the PC space. There are only so many developers, so much time and so many titles in development at any one time. If AMD can make cross-platform development more straight-forward for devs, while also promising greater performance than DX on like hardware, that's potentially a huge plus for their Radeon line.
But, AMD need adoption for Mantle to be worthwhile and I don't think they'll see that adoption unless nVidia write a Mantle driver for Geforce GPUs. Without that, devs will have to write for two renderers if they want to sell enough copies to make money on PC. Writing a game for multiple renderers for dubious benefit is not going to be popular with many.
Studios are all ready tooled up for DirectX development and some popular engines already have OpenGL renderers. It's going to be a tough sell for AMD.
I honestly think Nvidia's response to this will be to seriously push OpenGL and invest in making development with that platform easier.
Nvidia generally produces faster hardware, they have excellent OpenGL support, and their are already API calls inherent to OpenGL that produce similar results as Mantle.
Nvidia doesn't need a custom API as their performance is generally better anyways. Leveling the playing field with a push for OpenGL will only push things back into their favor.
Nvidia generally produces faster hardware, they have excellent OpenGL support, and their are already API calls inherent to OpenGL that produce similar results as Mantle.
Nvidia doesn't need a custom API as their performance is generally better anyways. Leveling the playing field with a push for OpenGL will only push things back into their favor.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Has anyone used Mantle with a Phenom II x4 965 and either a 7870 or a 7970? How big is the improvement? If I can put off getting an FX series CPU for a while I could get a much better GPU than my 6870 much sooner.
Future PhaZe
Member
I see a strong push with Valve coming in the future, with a bevy of titles launching with superior Open GL performance in comparison to DX11.
If the leaks are true, Valve could be announcing Source 2 and potentially HL3 + L4D3, both of which I'd expect to have strong N-Vidia and Open GL support.
alexandros
Banned
I really hope that is the case. If both Nvidia and Valve push OpenGL it will be a much better outcome for PC gaming in general. Still, kudos to AMD for getting the ball rolling on api optimization.
With support for Cryengine (Star Citizen), Unreal (Thief) and Frostbite AMD already has a large portion of the engine market covered.
KojiKnight
Member
I couldn't possibly care less whether it's mantle or a more optimized OpenGL... what I want is a good solid API that allows developers to optimize games themselves (IE get past having to wait weeks or months for driver updates to do it) and have as little overhead as possible.
OpenGL has the benefit right now of being an open standard and cross platform... but the tools and enthusiasm for the API is still lack luster at best. Mantle has some good opening momentum but is currently locked down to a single platform and vendor with just a promise of it being possible to be cross platform/vendor.
OpenGL has the benefit right now of being an open standard and cross platform... but the tools and enthusiasm for the API is still lack luster at best. Mantle has some good opening momentum but is currently locked down to a single platform and vendor with just a promise of it being possible to be cross platform/vendor.
Isn't the GTX 770 $100 cheaper than the 280x?
The comparisons seem off because of things like that.
Seems like for $300 you would be better off with Nvidia's card. (I'm personally a fan of the $300 price range..that's the best bang for the buck IMO) However, it definitely gives you a nice little boost if you already have an AMD card.
5fps+ boost on the mid-upper cards is a significant gain to many enthusiasts, so that's pretty cool.
Turin Turambar
Member
I don't know about truth-facts
, but I know about common sense.They are making an engine, they will want to use it and sell it to third parties. If they would sabotage their own Direct 3d performance (which is what most people will use from here to x years even if Mantle goes well), they would make a poor case for marketing their own engine.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
I really hope that Bethesda and Firaxis will support Mantle in the near-future too. Their games are always CPU-dependent. If I understand Mantle correctly, it would help their performance significantly with CPU-limited builds, unless I have it backwards.
New DX11 vs Mantle comparison shots by PCGH.de
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/AMD-R...ecials/AMD-Mantle-Test-Battlefield-4-1107754/
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/AMD-R...ecials/AMD-Mantle-Test-Battlefield-4-1107754/
Skyfireblaze
Member
Is anyone else having trouble with AMD Overdrive not working with 14.1? My GPU clock is stuck at 925mhz even though I have set it back to 1100mhz :/
I think it is for compute.
GPUs are not problem here it is API which they are using. R290X under Mantle is same hardware as under DirectX.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Yeah it is, found it on google images.
TheThunder
Member
That's pretty impressive, although they should've used Windows 8/8.1 instead of 7.
UE3 port by AMD and Eidos. Almost everything coming out in the future will be UE4.
Interesting. Cmon GAF, give us more benches.
KojiKnight
Member
Will do just as soon as I can get back to where my main PC is... blast my very young children needing to be watched like hawks and the relatively small space that is my computer "room".
Wow, will try tonight but hopefully it will actually run on my 7870 XT.
StarSwarm works fine on all GCN cards. On BF4 however, DICE did not have "time" to optimize for all cards [
~_~
I tried it once already on my card with the 14.1 drivers, and it failed immediately but ran fine in DX11. I will try again as I would like to see if the gains play out.
I downloaded the 14.1 beat drivers yesterday, and both the StarSwarm demo and BF 4 allowed me to use Mantle. (Sapphire 7870 XT card and FX 8350 CPU)
I don't have the exact numbers, but I ran StarSwarm without the beat drivers in DX11 on extreme settings and I believe I averaged around 18 - 20 FPS. With Mantle I believe my average was just about 30. It did have a hell of a lot of slowdown when a lot of ships were on the screen which is to be assumed.
I haven't really gave BF 4 a try yet. I just popped in to the video options to see if I could change the API, and lo and behold, I could. I think it may have something to do with the fact that even though my card is a 7800 series, it uses the Tahiti chipset like the 7900 series.
I don't have the exact numbers, but I ran StarSwarm without the beat drivers in DX11 on extreme settings and I believe I averaged around 18 - 20 FPS. With Mantle I believe my average was just about 30. It did have a hell of a lot of slowdown when a lot of ships were on the screen which is to be assumed.
I haven't really gave BF 4 a try yet. I just popped in to the video options to see if I could change the API, and lo and behold, I could. I think it may have something to do with the fact that even though my card is a 7800 series, it uses the Tahiti chipset like the 7900 series.
mario_O
Member
Welp..
i7 2700K
Radeon 7970
Extreme configuration
Old Star Swarm build
DirectX
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 11493
Average FPS: 31.92
Average Unit Count: 4284
Maximum Unit Count: 5329
Average Batches/MS: 567.77
Maximum Batches/MS: 1402.73
Average Batch Count: 20487
Maximum Batch Count: 152402
===========================================================
Mantle
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 17712
Average FPS: 49.20
Average Unit Count: 4496
Maximum Unit Count: 5861
Average Batches/MS: 1021.41
Maximum Batches/MS: 2589.44
Average Batch Count: 23038
Maximum Batch Count: 112083
===========================================================
New Star Swarm build
DirectX
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 12442
Average FPS: 34.56
Average Unit Count: 4292
Maximum Unit Count: 5383
Average Batches/MS: 522.76
Maximum Batches/MS: 1381.26
Average Batch Count: 17846
Maximum Batch Count: 144404
===========================================================
Mantle
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 16519
Average FPS: 45.88
Average Unit Count: 4370
Maximum Unit Count: 5548
Average Batches/MS: 891.14
Maximum Batches/MS: 3013.37
Average Batch Count: 21647
Maximum Batch Count: 95959
===========================================================
i7 2700K
Radeon 7970
Extreme configuration
Old Star Swarm build
DirectX
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 11493
Average FPS: 31.92
Average Unit Count: 4284
Maximum Unit Count: 5329
Average Batches/MS: 567.77
Maximum Batches/MS: 1402.73
Average Batch Count: 20487
Maximum Batch Count: 152402
===========================================================
Mantle
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 17712
Average FPS: 49.20
Average Unit Count: 4496
Maximum Unit Count: 5861
Average Batches/MS: 1021.41
Maximum Batches/MS: 2589.44
Average Batch Count: 23038
Maximum Batch Count: 112083
===========================================================
New Star Swarm build
DirectX
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 12442
Average FPS: 34.56
Average Unit Count: 4292
Maximum Unit Count: 5383
Average Batches/MS: 522.76
Maximum Batches/MS: 1381.26
Average Batch Count: 17846
Maximum Batch Count: 144404
===========================================================
Mantle
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 16519
Average FPS: 45.88
Average Unit Count: 4370
Maximum Unit Count: 5548
Average Batches/MS: 891.14
Maximum Batches/MS: 3013.37
Average Batch Count: 21647
Maximum Batch Count: 95959
===========================================================
Ran star swam on DX11 and Mantle just now, these are my findings:
AMD Sapphire 7950
i5 3570k @ 3.40 GHz
(Extreme - Follow)
DX11: 25.43 FPS
Mantle: 38.55 FPS
It was a very noticeable change. I don't think it ever dipped below 10-15 FPS with Mantle, while with DX11 it went as low as 5.
AMD Sapphire 7950
i5 3570k @ 3.40 GHz
(Extreme - Follow)
DX11: 25.43 FPS
Mantle: 38.55 FPS
It was a very noticeable change. I don't think it ever dipped below 10-15 FPS with Mantle, while with DX11 it went as low as 5.
I went ahead and did another Direct X / Mantle comparison. Now that I figured out the graph command. I was originally taking screenshots in windowed mode which was lowering the Direct X FPS into the 30's (about minus 10 frames). Windowed mode seemingly has no framerate impact with mantle, which I thought was interesting. The building hadn't fallen down in these shots so there is much less fog,
Direct X
Mantle
From the other side of the map
----------------
Direct X
Mantle
Map: Siege of Shanghai 64 players
All setting on max except for "post AA"
CPU AMD FX 8120 (4.0hz)
GPU Radeon 7950 w/boost
Ram 16gigs
Direct X
Mantle
From the other side of the map
----------------
Direct X
Mantle
Map: Siege of Shanghai 64 players
All setting on max except for "post AA"
CPU AMD FX 8120 (4.0hz)
GPU Radeon 7950 w/boost
Ram 16gigs
marvelharvey
Member
Does Mantel need to be 'switched on' in the settings somewhere? No matter what game I try or how many time I uninstall/reinstall the 14.1 drivers, my 7950 shows no noticeable difference in framerate compared to the old drivers.
I think he means that the skyboxes (term used fox the sky in game development) are brighter in Mantle than DirectX. I don't have BF4, but isn't that something DICE said it was a bug in their part?
It's a bug, dice knows about it, won't affect performance
will try to post some results with mantle later this evening
running a Core i5 3750 with a radeon 7850 let's see if this gives me a tiny boost