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[benny_a]

I think it's fine for the author to prefer one effect over several other things, at least it means some people will think about what resolution means.

What we know is that he picked Anisotropic filtering (what level, we don't know yet) over the following things:

- 44% higher resolution
- more consistent frame-rate and higher average (frame stuttering reduces the impact of this by a lot)
- parallax occlusion mapping missing (everywhere?)
- more evident pop-out and pop-in lighting streaming

What we know from the PC versions is that increasing resolution and POM are very costly in terms of performance compared to Anisotropic Filtering.
So to me it says that Thomas Morgan says that the developer has made the wrong trade-off, because they got a better resulting game on Xbox One by spending much less resources to achieve their goal.

We'll be getting high quality Gamersyde footage for the Xbox One in the near future, so we can check the accuracy of the current assumptions.

 

[boredandlazy]

Possibly the WORST strawman I've seen on gaf. Those things are not remotely the same.

Sigh...
There was no strawman. I wasn't equating Microsoft's DRM with DF's analysis.

You were saying(Well I interpreted it that way anyway) that the people who are not buying Thief shouldn't comment on this topic which is related to it. I just applied the same logic to a different example to show how moronic that logic is.

 

[Cheech]

They ruined their credibity when an editor let Leadbetter run a MS press release with some magic sauce that didn't pass the sniff test, let alone being laughed at by anyone with even a basic knowledge of X86 systems. You have to not know what your talking about to print that you can add two separate bus speeds and get an overall top line data transfer number. "They assured us" isn't a get out of jail card in the face of blatant bullshit.

Trying to find parity where none exists is starting to become a problem over there. Especially when you can go back and read over their criteria and reasoning last gen on games with minuet differences. Tiny differences in texture resolution or 5fps deltas were enough to make recommendations. But now 30% rendering differences are.... Not as large a difference as AF? Huh?

Ahh well. But can you blame them when they risk being blacklisted? Right?

The thing is, this will be evident very quickly on the next handful of games, given the obvious gulf in power. The gen just kicked off.

If there was something shady going on, why would they risk it on a game sent to die in late February, that had had "bomb" written on it for the better part of a year? They seem to have gotten it mostly correct on the PS4/XBO games that DO count like CoD/BF4, so why sell their souls for this piece of shit?

That is why I have a very difficult time taking a lot of this thread seriously. It's just illogical this would happen on this particular title.

 

[TyrantII]

Yes. You're a PC guy, and at one point I was a PC-only guy as well. There are plenty of sites I can go to for benchmarks and super technical reviews of hardware, processors, GPUs, and games etc. but as I said there's only DF that does that type of thing with console games- at least at the volume DF analyses.

When inaccuracies become more and more common with them and they misreport data that they themselves collected, they lose my trust and I get bummed that I'll have to sift through cross comparisons and threads like these to get the actual facts.

It's easy though for some to point at people and claim fanboyism because of it being centered on two consoles against one another. There shouldn't be anything wrong with having refs review a call though. Regardless of which version edges out we should always hold those that provide us info accountable to their jobs, you know? It's just weird that simple accountability has become fodder for the warz.

Ultimately I think that's the sad part, since they did have an air of impartiality and in the past provided a service you couldn't get from other sites, that everyone generally accepted as unbiased and legitimate.

So far their track record in comparisons has been very sloppy to say the least this gen so far. Their previews and hardware breakdowns were good at hitting bullet points, but showed very little knowledge on how the tech works or might work outside of the PR. Any remember the, sloppy BF4 debacle? What about all the differences they missed in tomb raider, including resolution downgrades?

Quite simply, something has changed over there. And they're losing credibility fast.

 

[WoolyNinja]

Yet another article about consoles that I am skeptical about, especially now that its 100% proven that Microsoft (for sure - i'm sure most other companies too) pay for good articles/videos/etc. The entire industry is gross in its current state and it makes me sad.

 

[THRILLH0]

Sigh...
There was no strawman. I wasn't equating Microsoft's DRM with DF's analysis.

You were saying that the people who are not buying Thief shouldn't comment on this topic which is related to it. I just applied the same logic to a different example to show how moronic that logic is.

I didn't say that all. I rather lamented the fact that people are far more interested in discussing the relative performance of versions of a game - and complaining about one site's opinion thereof - than the game itself.

I get wanting to discuss which version of a game performs better if you're actually interested but this thread is being sustained by the bitching of those who don't actually care about Thief but simply refuse to accept that DF could reasonably prefer one version over the other.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

I agree, this isn't like PS3 & Xbox 360 in which the hardware inside of those consoles are just about similar to each other.

PS4 is tons more powerful than Xbox One is due to a much superior GPU & 8 GB's of faster RAM, so multiplats on PS4 should automatically win by default.

That wasn't always the case with the first XBox and those multiplat titles even though many would argue that system having a larger gap in power (compared to the PS2) than what we see now between these two consoles. Oddly enough it didn't seem to matter as much back then.

 

[boredandlazy]

I didn't say that all. I rather lamented the fact that people are far more interested in discussing the relative performance of versions of a game - and complaining about one site's opinion thereof - than the game itself.

Well that was a simple misinterpretation on my part then.

I get wanting to discuss which version of a game performs better if you're actually interested but this thread is being sustained by the batching of those who refuse to accept that DF could reasonably prefer one version over the other.

The fact in itself that DF preferred the XBOne version is not really the debate though. It's the reasons they preferred it which has garnered the ire of people. Especially when upon closer inspection by a few posters here those reasons were proven to be innacurate.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

Both versions look fine to me.. article does seem to be reaching for a X1 victory though.

 

[TyrantII]

The thing is, this will be evident very quickly on the next handful of games, given the obvious gulf in power. The gen just kicked off.

If there was something shady going on, why would they risk it on a game sent to die in late February, that had had "bomb" written on it for the better part of a year? They seem to have gotten it mostly correct on the PS4/XBO games that DO count like CoD/BF4, so why sell their souls for this piece of shit?

That is why I have a very difficult time taking a lot of this thread seriously. It's just illogical this would happen on this particular title.

Thats fair enough. But we do know the lengths MS has gone to muddy the water on their tech. Hell, they even had this forum as a soapbox, and were laughed to the curb.

Honestly, cynically, I think its just the same "understood" pressures infecting the whole of the gaming media. Were not their customers and they're protecting their own interests and access by false equivalency. Gotta be fair", which in most media spheres means 50/50, not what is fact or what is right.

The other explanation is sloppy, ignorance. I'm unaware of a large turnover or new editorial management over there, so that seems less likely; although there are some serious questions on their methodology, and why they've been missing quite a bit picked up by gamers on their recent face off candidates.

 

[lol51]

I hope they did this test while the game was 100% installed. I played on the PS4 with the minimum 4 gigs install (22 for full client) the game was a stuttery mess. The disparity in performance between a full install and minimum required to run is substantial.

 

[vxXJordanXxv]

I hope they did this test while the game was 100% installed. I played on the PS4 with the minimum 4 gigs install (22 for full client) the game was a stuttery mess. The disparity in performance between a full install and minimum required to run is substantial.

Yes. You're a PC guy, and at one point I was a PC-only guy as well. There are plenty of sites I can go to for benchmarks and super technical reviews of hardware, processors, GPUs, and games etc. but as I said there's only DF that does that type of thing with console games- at least at the volume DF analyses.

When inaccuracies become more and more common with them and they misreport data that they themselves collected, they lose my trust and I get bummed that I'll have to sift through cross comparisons and threads like these to get the actual facts.

It's easy though for some to point at people and claim fanboyism because of it being centered on two consoles against one another. There shouldn't be anything wrong with having refs review a call though. Regardless of which version edges out we should always hold those that provide us info accountable to their jobs, you know? It's just weird that simple accountability has become fodder for the warz.

It is and sadly that is one of the reasons I went and got a PC in the first place. Before I used the PC as the control group of the consoles to compare versions now I say to hell with it. Anyways I'm going to stop now before I sound too much like an elitist. Enjoy!

 

[Xenon]

DF did not hide anything or try to be deceptive. They gave people the facts and their opinion. If you think your opinion is valid based on only information they gave you and some YouTube videos, good for you. But I can't help but think a lot of the reactions in this thread stem from a bit of disappointment due to expectations that the PS4 would be shown to be superior.

 

[KidBeta]

Do we know if DF did a full or partial install? people seem to be indicating that the texture issue is in relation to a partial install?.

 

[thunder_snail]

The thing is, this will be evident very quickly on the next handful of games, given the obvious gulf in power. The gen just kicked off.

If there was something shady going on, why would they risk it on a game sent to die in late February, that had had "bomb" written on it for the better part of a year? They seem to have gotten it mostly correct on the PS4/XBO games that DO count like CoD/BF4, so why sell their souls for this piece of shit?

That is why I have a very difficult time taking a lot of this thread seriously. It's just illogical this would happen on this particular title.

Titanfall is going to be released soon and MS needs Xbone to be in the best light for that release. See it this way:

1) I'd like to buy Xbone for Titanfall but it seems every game on it play worse than PS4. I might just as well play Titanfall on 360 or PC and buy a PS4 when it's available in stores.

or

2) DF says Xbone's Thief is better than PS4's. It looks like what MS said is true and PS4 is not 40% faster than Xbone. May just as well buy Xbone for Titanfall.

If the marketing department at Xbox division is capable in any way, they'd spend the money for this kinda marketing. And the best way for it is to cooperate with popular site like DF.

Also Thief is not that bad. It's actually a decent stealth game.

 

[alexandros]

That being said, I agree with most the comparison is sloppy at best and the game is hot garbage anyways.

It's actually a fun little game, calling it hot garbage just because it doesn't run well on consoles is an exaggeration.

I'm used to PC having better graphics, but I've had enough bitching from PC owners about console versions of games. You're not going to get it on consoles so why do you care?

I like stealth games and I want more of them. Quite a few PS4 fans want to rip the game to shreds just because a DF comparison didn't have the result they wanted. I believe that's not fair towards an actually quite good game and one that runs very well on PC. The game should not be blamed for the shortcomings of the platforms it's being run on.

 

[PlayStationboy]

Something isn't right...

How does this same scene look on the PC?

 

[Self_Destructive]

How does this same scene look on the PC?

Like a combination of the 2 and slightly sharper.

 

[boredandlazy]

DF did not hide anything or try to be deceptive. They gave people the facts and their opinion. If you think your opinion is valid based on only information they gave you and some YouTube videos, good for you. But I can't help but think a lot of the reactions in this thread stem from a bit of disappointment due to expectations that the PS4 would be shown to be superior.

What facts did they give that painted that picture?

 

[PlayStationboy]

I smell a patch incoming for the PS4 version, then we'll all laugh at this debacle.

Gotta give it to Xbone for throwing a few punches to make things interesting, we were at the point where these comparisons weren't even worth it, just give it to PS4 by default every time lol. But surprise surprise, looks like DF will still be in business... at least for now

 

[alexandros]

I'm more interested in why Anisotropic filtering is proving to be an issue yet again with nextgen platforms. Enabling full-on 16xAF on PC has a negligible performance hit even on bargain bin graphics cards. I haven't played a game without at least 8xAF in more than ten or so years.

 

[xkramz]

I'm more interested in why Anisotropic filtering is proving to be an issue yet again with nextgen platforms. Enabling full-on 16xAF on PC has a negligible performance hit even on bargain bin graphics cards. I haven't played a game without at least 8xAF in more than ten or so years.

Random:


I'm not good with computer programming but how close is x86 vs typical pc? Or is it the same thing?

 

[PlayStationboy]

By the way, what happened to the crushed blacks on the bone version? IGN am cry again?

 

[KidBeta]

Random:


I'm not good with computer programming but how close is x86 vs typical pc? Or is it the same thing?

x86 is desktop pcs.

 

[alexandros]

Random:


I'm not good with computer programming but how close is x86 vs typical pc? Or is it the same thing?

It's the same, both consoles use x86 CPUs. Intel and AMD PC CPUs are also x86.

 

[TheD]

And the CPUs have nothing to do with AF.

 

[UnrealEck]

As far as I'm aware Digital Foundry's comparison was between XB1, PS4 and PC. I'm sorry that you don't like the outcome but you'd better get used to it, you'll be seeing it a lot over the next few years.
Right.

How dare you have an interest in console hardware if you prefer to play your games on a PC.

(yes, sarcasm.)

 

[Bgamer90]

That wasn't always the case with the first XBox and those multiplat titles even though many would argue that system having a larger gap in power (compared to the PS2) than what we see now between these two consoles. Oddly enough it didn't seem to matter as much back then.

Still remember NFS Hot Pursuit 2 being much better on the PS2 than the Xbox though the versions were made by different teams.

 

[coldfoot]

I like stealth games and I want more of them. Quite a few PS4 fans want to rip the game to shreds just because a DF comparison didn't have the result they wanted. I believe that's not fair towards an actually quite good game and one that runs very well on PC. The game should not be blamed for the shortcomings of the platforms it's being run on.

Since you're getting it on PC, why do you care if ps4 fans are ripping the game to shreds? How does that prevent more stealth gams from being made? If you want more stealth games on PC, what the ps4 owners think about stealth games are irrelevant.

 

[Neuromancer]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a significant number of posters complaining in this thread have not played Thief or even have any intention to do so.

This is going to happen with every DF piece about every major release on PS4/X1. May as well get used to it.

 

[alexandros]

Since you're getting it on PC, why do you care if ps4 fans are ripping the game to shreds? How does that prevent more stealth gams from being made? If you want more stealth games on PC, what the ps4 owners think about stealth games are irrelevant.

Many games from major publishers are multiplatform. When a significant part of the audience believes that a specific game is casting its favorite platform in a bad light, sales suffer. Then the publisher will be less likely to greenlight a sequel or a game in the same genre. Ergo, less stealth games.

 

[Shtof]

This whole debacle reminds me of that time when the other comparison site, Lens Of Truth made the PS3 version of Prince of Persia 08 the winner. Even though it had clearly worse textures the PS3 won because the 360 version was too sharp for the art style. I disagree.

 

[raphanum]

Could somebody, please, explain to me what the implications are for these results? Please?

 

[swazzyswess]

Oh, it's coming. Probably sooner then you think.

You're probably right. And as the sun finally sets on AAA games, we'll all be debating the quality of its bloom effects.

 

[coldfoot]

Many games from major publishers are multiplatform. When a significant part of the audience believes that a specific game is casting its favorite platform in a bad light, sales suffer. Then the publisher will be less likely to greenlight a sequel or a game in the same genre. Ergo, less stealth games.

First of all do you have any evidence that a bad but not too bad port like thief makes sales suffer? COD ports were shitty on the PS3 but still sold comparable to the install base.
Second, I thought PC was big enough to support AAA development by itself according to you and didn't need the console ports?

 

[Piggus]

Could somebody, please, explain to me what the implications are for these results? Please?

Incompetent developers left a box unchecked basically. There's literally no reason other than moronic oversight that the PS4 version should have worse texture filtering. But it does and will probably be patched.

Also Digital Foundry being moronic in their "analysis"

I think DF is right. Keep up the good work, guys!

wow

so subtle

 

[raphanum]

Incompetent developers left a box unchecked basically. There's literally no reason other than moronic oversight that the PS4 version should have worse texture filtering. But it does and will probably be patched.

Also Digital Foundry being moronic in their "analyse"



wow

so subtle

Thanks, for the reply. I just find it amusing that fanboys from both sides are coming out of the woodwork for this one. X1 fanboys for thinking it's some evidence of superior hardware and PS4 fanboys for feeling insecure.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Thanks, for the reply. I just find it amusing that fanboys from both sides are coming out of the woodwork for this one. X1 fanboys for thinking it's some evidence of superior hardware and PS4 fanboys for feeling insecure.

I don't think any honest X1 fans really feel it has superior hardware, but the PS4 fanboy insecurity is through the roof. Thread after thread after thread mocking the X1 and its games since before the consoles were even released. But if you say one thing, anything! about a PS4 flaw, regardless if it is ridiculously insignificant or even matters, crap hits the fan immediately. There's no other explanation other than total insecurity on the matter. Hilarious.

 

[alexandros]

First of all do you have any evidence that a bad but not too bad port like thief makes sales suffer? COD ports were shitty on the PS3 but still sold comparable to the install base.
Second, I thought PC was big enough to support AAA development by itself according to you and didn't need the console ports?

The same answer to both your questions: stealth games are niche. They're not COD or GTA, they have a very specific and rather limited audience. It's sad, but true.

 

[dark10x]

I'm amused that the discussions have all but ignored the absolutely intolerable frame pacing issue. It kind of makes the rest of the details seem unimportant.

 

[raphanum]

I don't think any honest X1 fans really feel it has superior hardware, but the PS4 fanboy insecurity is through the roof. Thread after thread after thread mocking the X1 and its games since before the consoles were even released. But if you say one thing, anything! about a PS4 flaw, regardless if it is ridiculously insignificant or even matters, crap hits the fan immediately. There's no other explanation other than total insecurity on the matter. Hilarious.

I completely agree. It's one thing to point out a consoles flaws, but it's another to constantly berate it for no other reason than childish fanboy-ism. I mean, give it a rest! However, if you're going to dish out criticism, then you should be able to accept criticisms as well. The thing is that, sure, the X1 has had a shaky start, but so did the PS3. And, like Sony, MS is doing their best to improve the console based on the criticisms and feedback from their player base. Fine, the GPU specs aren't up-to-par with the PS4, but so what? As long as they release good games, then what does it matter?

 

[CircleOfFire]

I'm always mindful of the "Hailstorm in MP" debacle in the Eurogamer RFOM review.

 

[CircleOfFire]

There's no other explanation other than total insecurity on the matter.

Or you know, they think there's some obvious nonsense, Occam's Razor and all that.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Damn, Digital Foundry getting owned in the OP update... there's nowhere to turn to anymore.

 

[Kocolino67]

Picking through turds to decide which one has less sweetcorn in it must be depressing. He probably wasn't expecting his analysis to be picked apart for a game like this.

I don't believe that DF writers aren't aware of their own impact - especially if it's about X1/PS4 multiplats.
Except they live under a rock or just don't care.

 

[KnockOneOff]

I don't care if this comes with a glow in the dark dildo, awful game

He should have compared the gameplay to previous thiefs

 

[G_Berry]

I don't think any honest X1 fans really feel it has superior hardware, but the PS4 fanboy insecurity is through the roof. Thread after thread after thread mocking the X1 and its games since before the consoles were even released. But if you say one thing, anything! about a PS4 flaw, regardless if it is ridiculously insignificant or even matters, crap hits the fan immediately. There's no other explanation other than total insecurity on the matter. Hilarious.

Yup.

Sums up GAF over the past 6+ months pretty well.

 

[MrZekToR]

31 pages (as I write this).

31 pages of people bitching. With 90% of the 'bitching' being over the next-gen hardware - and which hardware got the rough deal.

The resolution and frame rate war needs to stop.

Frankly, I think we would all be better off if the devs just settled on 720P across all console platforms. Also sticking to 30 fps in most cases. Higher resolution and 60 fps has proven difficult to sustain on ALL console platforms.

In my opinion a 720P image at 30 fps with a whole suite of visual effects and up to 10x more detail in any given scene is much more enticing than a buttery smooth 1080P lacking in visual fidelity and less detail to look at.

I own an Xbox One personally. I accept that the PS4 is slightly more powerful. I absolutely believe the PS4 is the easiest console platform to develop on. It is the most 'PC like' of the two new machines.

I also believe the Xbox One came to market earlier than MS anticipated. I think the SDK's are behind the PS4 at this time. MS are still tuning their platform.

My opinion is that it is easier to maximise the PS4's potential - and therefore it is closer to its 'maxed out' potential.

The X1 is more difficult to develop for. The use of ESRAM being the problem at the moment. It is because of this that the X1 is way behind its 'maxed out' potential at the moment. MS have a lot of catching up to do. Once the devs get a grip of the ESRAM and the tools in the SDK's are good. Then we will start to see more of the potential in the machine.

Let's be absolutely clear. The X1 can display 1080P at 60 fps. No doubt about it. The Xbox360's ESRAM equivalent only had 10Mb. That's 22Mb's less than the X1. A few titles managed 1080P/60fps with a third of the memory.

The X1 has already proven that 1080P/60fps can be done. As devs get to grips with the hardware and the new SDK's I can assure you that more titles of this resolution/speed will come.

But, as I see it right now. Devs are sacrificing visual quality in an attempt to hit 1080P and in some cases high frame rates. The PS4 has yet to deliver any half decent title at 1080P with a SUSTAINED 60fps. In fact, for all the articles I've read - Forza5 on the X1 is the only title at this level that has managed a 'near' consistent 60fps. I say near because I have Forza5 and for 99.9% of the time it is a solid 60fps. Occasionally, and I do mean very occasionally it will lose a frame or two. Perhaps noticeable about once for every 10 gaming sessions.

So, should devs strive to make every game 1080P / 60 fps.

Absolutely not.

Why?

Because as of right now...

The PS4 cannot deliver a 1080P AAA game with a CONSISTENT 60 fps.

The X1 cannot deliver a 1080P AAA game CONSISTENTLY.

What devs should do (and most likely will do in future) is bring the resolution of PS4 games down to 900P so they can deliver a consistent frame rate.

These same devs should also focus the X1 at the same 900P resolution and concentrate on optimising the performance of the machine to bring it to the same level or thereabouts of the PS4.

Lowering resolution allows for higher visual fidelity and more consistent frame rates. That's far more appealing than a pin sharp sparsely detailed environment to play in.

Anyway, my point is that it doesn't matter how powerful one machine is over another. It doesn't matter that one machine can deliver 'a few more frames' fps over another. It doesn't matter that one platform may be missing an effect that the other has. What matters is how much the player enjoys the game they are experiencing.

Just because one has more P's than the other doesn't automatically make it better. Just because one can deliver up to 3 or 5 extra frames per second in any one scene doesn't make it better. Even if one can stream in textures faster than the other doesn't make it better.

What makes it better is the overall experience regardless of anything above. It's about the 'experience' not the numbers.

People need to accept that DF's reviewer has chosen to like a particular platforms version of the game due to the experience he has had with it. Not the numbers under the hood.

Some other reviewers opinion might be completely different.

I accept his opinion - so should you.

Put it this way, a given Ferrari is fast, it corners well and it looks great.

But sometimes, that old Ford Mondeo can just be a quieter more comfortable place to be. It might not look as good, it doesn't go as fast, it doesn't corner as well. But, every day, it can be easier and nicer to drive.

That's the way this article should be reflected on.

 

[mrklaw]

I don't think any honest X1 fans really feel it has superior hardware, but the PS4 fanboy insecurity is through the roof. Thread after thread after thread mocking the X1 and its games since before the consoles were even released. But if you say one thing, anything! about a PS4 flaw, regardless if it is ridiculously insignificant or even matters, crap hits the fan immediately. There's no other explanation other than total insecurity on the matter. Hilarious.

I think that is unfair. DF threads are always active,they were with PS360. I don't think there is much insecurity here, but quite a lot of critical analysis because recent DF articles have been a little less than thorough, and this looks to be the same again.

I used to look forward to DF articles and being able to take the initial analysis at face value as the starting point for a discussion, but now it is DF itself being discussed because they do not seem to be anywhere near as rigorous as they used to be. As someone that enjoys the technical side of things, that is disappointing.

If you've actually read the thread and still think 'PS4 fanboy insecurity is through the roof' then I would suggest that is your bias seeing what you want in the thread rather than what is actually there.

 

[CraZed]

How does this same scene look on the PC?

Just like the PS4 version except with slightly better textures.