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Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade
- Thread starter Moral Panic
- Start date
well yeah, but i think as an explanation as to WHY no one is jumping on fromsoft it's pretty good. it was easy to jump on aliens because they game sucked
edit: also, i think a lot of you complaining about shit like "OMG DIFFERENT CASTLES" are coming off as ignorant. the changes in lighting etc are one thing. but different geometry is not inherently a downgrade. shit changes during development all the time. why is one of those castles better than the other? you're muddying up your points about the actual downgrades with stupid shit like "the walls look different in the demo" or "they changed the way the pillars look in this area"
Ah, yeah, I think I get what you mean. Some souls fans might take the critic in a wrong way and direct their anger at the site. Colonial marines had no fans.
Fallout-NL
Member
Sure, use a couple of over the top comments to dismiss the whole issue, that's reasonable.
Stone Ocean
Member
Stealth_Cobra
Member
Well, I think the changes in geometry / textures can be attributed to the normal evolution of a game world during development. If you check the video, you can see areas where the old version's textures were worse, some parts where they were better, so it's not 100% one-sided. They added grass, some details, and overall it's not that different, at least in those regards.
What appears clear though , is that From Software made a dynamic lightning system that was clearly next-gen, and when they tried to run it on actual PS3 and XBOX 360 hardware, it simply did not give suitable framerates, so they went with a flat, basic lighting probably ditched the heavy contrast ENB or something. Maybe it worked on devkits or something.
As for the Network Test, I think it had some form of that lighting system, but not all of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDCIS8dCwhs
It remains to be seen if the PC version will have those features enabled.
What appears clear though , is that From Software made a dynamic lightning system that was clearly next-gen, and when they tried to run it on actual PS3 and XBOX 360 hardware, it simply did not give suitable framerates, so they went with a flat, basic lighting probably ditched the heavy contrast ENB or something. Maybe it worked on devkits or something.
As for the Network Test, I think it had some form of that lighting system, but not all of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDCIS8dCwhs
It remains to be seen if the PC version will have those features enabled.
I just want to know, did you have any problems with Aliens: Colonial Marines? Because this is similar, and I'd personally say worse, than that and everyone's up in arms.
I've barely seen anyone claim that From needs to be burnt at the stake. Sure there have been a few, but people (including me) are, understandibly, angry about this.
I rarely buy games at launch, but I've bought both DS1 & 2 at launch (my DS2 is still wrapped because of this debacle). This has been frustrating for me, as someone who worked a lot to get money to buy the game and has been very excited since it was announced, that From Soft doesn't care enough to tell me/us (people who are buying their game for $60) that they made drastic graphical changes that are dramatically different than what they have shown us in the past.
I think this is the most likely explanation -- vertical slice for a tech demo.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Sure, but as annoying as it can be, "the graphics don't look as good as the reveal" isn't really surprising. In Watch_Dogs' case it's notable because it's so extreme, but it's still not really a massive news flash.
What's important about these Dark Souls changes is that they fundamentally break a core touted mechanic we'd been told about repeatedly until release. Imagine if Halo 2 had shipped with dual wielding stripped out, but still showed icons for picking up guns in your off hand. That's the kind of weird rushed removal we're seeing.
Brad is not a journalist, and he is not even a good game reviewer.
EvilKatarn
Member
phoeniks314
Banned
Someone should ask ENB stf happend, he played the game for a couple of months now, in his latest video he says the torch/darkness system has not made it into the game like supposed.
jim2point0
Banned
Brad just tweeted and said our craziness has nothing to do with Dark Souls. So I guess he's just ignoring it.
He's probably played the current version.
Krusenstern
Banned
As I look at the shadows of the valley of death
I take a look at my light and realize there's nothin' left
Cause I've been working and coding so long,
That even my fans think that my mind is gone
But I ain't never crossed a game that didn't deserve it
Me be treated like a punk you know that's unheard of
You better watch how you're talking and where you're walking
Or you and your gamers might be lined in chalk
I really hate to trip but I gotta loc
As they croak, I see myself in the volumetric smoke, fool
I'm the kinda G the little gamers wanna be like
On my knees in the night saying prayers in the torchlight
Looking at it now, we should have caught on to the bullshit. Seconds 25- 30 in the video show GOD RAYS on the original version... there is no fucking way that would run on a PS3. Modern $$$ graphics cards take a huge performance hit from God Rays.
Edit: ENB hopes that the PC version is superior LOL... I think we won't meet the fidelity of the vertical slice on any version.
swazzyswess
Member
So you're saying the overall quality of Dark Souls 2 is diminished to a greater extent by the discrepancy between earlier builds and the release build than A:CM's quality was diminished by the discrepancy from its initial reveal to final gameplay build? Because if you mean that, you're literally crazy. Or at the very least confirms you've not played either game.
Simpler geometries are usually made to lighten the load, that's why i call them a downgrade.
Now, nothing wrong with a downgrade to better the game's performance, but i don't see why we can't at least aknowledge it.
Some may be artistic changes, but some of the areas look downright barren now (like the hall with the bone dragon).
I think some changes were made to fit the now shortcomings (if you can't have godrays, maybe you shouldn't have the setting sun as a focus point in your panorama, so you change to a cloudy sky, for example) which again, is fine, but i was just arguing that it's not going to revert back in the PC version.
--
Bottom line is: Nobody downgrades a game for fun, but if you do as drastically as this, there should be some clarity about it, at the very least from the press, especially when 90% of the media up to that point promoted the non-downgraded product.
Haha yeah I noticed that too. Even my 780 weeps when Alan Wake brings out the godrays and I have the godray quality cranked up to high >_<
gundamkyoukai
Member
I doubt that engine even cost that much to tell the truth .
Something went really wrong with this game .
Dragon's Dogma has godrays, Uncharted 3 too.
I'm sure plenty other games have them, too.
JRW
Member
Dude... I am very skeptical about that. Screenshots?
PS. I beat Dragon's Dogma on 360 and don't recall any god rays.
swazzyswess
Member
That hardly tells the whole story. Look at the rest of Dragon's Dogma texture qualities and variety. If Dark Souls 2 looked like that, people would be even more pissed off.
I LOVED Dragon's Dogma, but a huge percentage of the indoor environments were the same color and made visually interesting by the fact it was dark and your lantern dynamically lit the areas.
Blargonaut
Banned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhckus8ktgE
Wow. Great work, this manages to show off the difference exceptionally. This needs to be rubbed in the faces of important people so we can finally get some answers. The fact that both those versions were working and playable on PS3... the retail version is FUBAR.
That the majority of reviewers barely, if at all, commented on this difference is mind-boggling.
From Software should NOT get a 'Get-out-of-jail-free' card by simply delivering an up-to-spec PC version next month! All you GAFers who say you'll wait for the PC version, you're actually going to leave us console players in the dust? We need your support as well, please don't leave us to die. Not like this.
PS3 and 360 players need all the help they can get, messaging From and Bamco about this. They are actively shafting the entire Dark Souls 2 console community by not even informing us of this downgrade prior to release, and CONTINUING to NOT RELEASE ANY OFFICIAL STATEMENT REGARDING IT!
PC SOULS PLAYERS, DOES THAT NOT SEEM F**KED UP TO YOU? We need your help giving this issue more exposure, please don't just watch from your battlecruiser as the Zerg surround us.
Wow. Great work, this manages to show off the difference exceptionally. This needs to be rubbed in the faces of important people so we can finally get some answers. The fact that both those versions were working and playable on PS3... the retail version is FUBAR.
That the majority of reviewers barely, if at all, commented on this difference is mind-boggling.
From Software should NOT get a 'Get-out-of-jail-free' card by simply delivering an up-to-spec PC version next month! All you GAFers who say you'll wait for the PC version, you're actually going to leave us console players in the dust? We need your support as well, please don't leave us to die. Not like this.
PS3 and 360 players need all the help they can get, messaging From and Bamco about this. They are actively shafting the entire Dark Souls 2 console community by not even informing us of this downgrade prior to release, and CONTINUING to NOT RELEASE ANY OFFICIAL STATEMENT REGARDING IT!
PC SOULS PLAYERS, DOES THAT NOT SEEM F**KED UP TO YOU? We need your help giving this issue more exposure, please don't just watch from your battlecruiser as the Zerg surround us.
jacksepticeye
Member
Someone like ENB doesnt need to explain anything on the downgrade or why it happened, just the fact tjat he ackowledged it is enough to know he's at least not blindly ignoring it
People of the press seem to not care about it or are blind to it and aren't really talking about it at all which is annoying, then saying we're crazy for it makes it worse.
I don't think the majority of us are crazy for noticing or critiquing the game for it. Some people go overboard like always sure, but the people saying "it's no big deal it always happens" are just as bad.
I'm sure the game still plays fantastically. But it sure ain't the same looking game anymore
People of the press seem to not care about it or are blind to it and aren't really talking about it at all which is annoying, then saying we're crazy for it makes it worse.
I don't think the majority of us are crazy for noticing or critiquing the game for it. Some people go overboard like always sure, but the people saying "it's no big deal it always happens" are just as bad.
I'm sure the game still plays fantastically. But it sure ain't the same looking game anymore
ILHASS
Member
psone version incoming?
dynamitejim
Member
Dark Souls 2 has god rays, though they seem to be lower resolution than what's in that video. Have you actually played the game?
Krusenstern
Banned
I wasn't saying the difference in castles are a downgrade. It's rather a sign that FROM made different builds of the game. The differences in geometry all point to two completely different builds of the game, which would explain why we ended up with something else than advertised.
Yeah I've played it for about 8 hours now. I don't see anything resembling that video.
ENB responded to someone on youtube:
Seems realistic, and I don't blame From for doing so as the performance is still marginal even with all of the effects turned down.
I'm just curious about the PC version, and I believe many are in this thread as well.
phoeniks314
Banned
"on last gen systems" does this mean there is a nextgen version, i don't think he means the PC version.
Hang on how can people say it looks worse than DS1? You are going a little too far without having seen even 80% of the game. And people don't seem to complain about the animations anymore. And the torch is not completely useless. I could say that about pharros stone because you never have to really use them to progress, but they cause changes that are still significant mechanically. Torches have their uses just not as much as implied 1 and half years ago when they first made that interview. I believe they could not make the trade of between shield and torch worth it.
Muahahhahahahahaha
No.
#TeamBrotherhoodofBlood
We have to wait 6 weeks for a game we haven't even seen yet. It might even look just as bad as the console versions, we'll see when the time comes.
jacksepticeye
Member
I think he does just mean PC
"on last gen systems" does this mean there is a nextgen version, i don't think he means the PC version.
"on last gen systems" does this mean there is a nextgen version, i don't think he means the PC version.
He's just plainly referring to the PS3/360, not implying anything...
I'm not as up as some of you are in terms of everything that's been shown, so I don't know if this is old news or not. But, when I played the portion of the game where you run through the hall of stone statues in order to get to the Looking Glass Knight, there were some definite difference beyond just the hallway itself.
Right before the hall there was a bonfire, much, much closer than the one that exists now. That's an easy explanation—they put one there in order to give the media a quick point to re-start at in order to try the fight. But, the room was also different. The room, as it exists in the game now, has a bunch of candles on the wall, and a small statue. When I played the preview of that portion, it was a much smaller room, with no decorations that I can remember. I also want to say that there might have been a staircase, either going up or down to get to the hallway. (I could be wrong on that, though.)
Again, this may all be worthless if there's full video of that build out there, but I'm not sure if there is or not.
Absolutely, that was running on PC. I've never played a media build (to my knowledge) that wasn't running on PC. When I played another media build later—what I believe was the public demo that was released—we played an actual portion of the final game. Like, it felt like they had taken a chunk out of the game and let us play it. The Looking Glass Knight portion, I'm really wondering if that wasn't something that had been put together to show the concept of the game, but not necessarily a piece of development that would be in the final game. As the videos and gifs show, the architecture is definitely different between the two.
So, I don't think that it's a case of "things hugely changed"—I think, as some have wondered, it might have been two separate pieces of development. Stuff is built to show off concept or give an overview of what the final game will be, so maybe things like that and the crossing of the bridge with all the dragons were indeed slices made to show off to Namco Bandai or whatever else. Looking at the architectural difference, there's just too many things that are different in ways that don't make sense for the act of downgrading.
One thing, to be fair to media types like me: we get shown totally random pieces at totally random times, and do enough events and hands-on preview stuff, and it can be tough to remember exactly what you saw where. When you're seeing out-of-context slices of games, there's so much to take in in so little time that it can be hard to remember every detail. I remember when I played a portion of the original Dark Souls, it took be a bit to really pick up where it was in context to the full game one I got ahold of the final build. (Due to the way it was presented, and tweaks that happen along the way.) For DS2, I clearly remember having three separate encounters with the game, but at this point I'm having trouble keeping track of which happened when and how that'd play into the timeline of the game's development (and which might have given clues, if any, as to what would be different in the final build.)
swazzyswess
Member
Oh yeah, also wanted to mention Dragon's Dogma was letterboxed. Everything is a trade-off with this aging hardware. It's a simple fact that people in this thread don't seem to want to understand. ENB's two-sentence comment should be enough to put this issue to rest.
Yeah i get your point and agree with it.
I was saying that you know, instead of being dismissive the press should be the one digging this shit out, not random people on neogaf.
That said, these downgrades seem more drastic than Watch Dogs', to me.
Metalingus5150
Member
There actually is something like that in part of the game that I've played.
Not in that area though, in another area.
lol
I think everyone understands that the PS3 and 360 can't handle the game without the downgrade.
I also think they should've been more upfront about it, and not hope for people not to notice a core mechanic becoming utterly useless.
And yeah, we'll see how the PC version turns out, i still have some hope left.
