Support NeoGAF

[kmg90]

For those that think using DS4 on PS3 is better than using DS3 on PS3, do you not get annoyed by the lack of detection in analog stick movement when moving diagonally?

The DS4 does not have the same range of detection as the DS3 on PS3 and leads to having character movement in games be less responsive when moving up and slightly left or right....



I can't be the only one who's noticed this issue.

 

[KungFucius]

While I can understand how annoying this must be for people, I don't really see why Sony have to sort out their fuck-ups for them.

What the fuck is your problem? These people had no intention to purchase something yet they did due to some bizarre quirk. Sony is a multibillion corporation and could easily reverse the charges and revoke the game, yet you feel that a person who is not even worth a tiny fraction of that should have to keep an unwanted, unintentional purchase because why? No person to person business would ever operate like that because it is just shitty and a good company would give refunds and re-engineer the system to prevent this from happening in the future. We all make mistakes and in this case both Sony and the user made one. If you cannot see it as such you must be a terrible person to do business with.

When a decent person at Sony is made aware of this they will fix it, because they are in business to serve their customers not to set up obscure traps to make them purchase something they did not want.

 

[Joni]

Always offer refunds when the situations are reasonable. It's good customer service which is ultimately good business. The defense force for a "no refunds" policy is pretty baffling..

Please note the difference between being against refunds, and saying the company is in the right in this case. They shouldn't have to refund, althought they're free to do so as gestures of good will.

And because it was bottom of the page, I'll quote this.

I'm ticketing this thread back to SCEA management so they are at least aware of the issue outside of Support.

 

[Soulflarz]

You should be banned for that stupid shitty threadtitle. What a joke.

(obviously a super late reply, but i saw this and felt the need to call it out, sorry >.< )
I agree. Lets completely take away his ability to post on a forum because of a single thread title.
/sarcasm

Not trying to be rude, but yeah, youre being rude.


Edit: and i vote for refunds, if only on good faith. You might have to literally try your hardest to have it control both consoles at once, but it really is weird as hell that it works.

 

[FritoBandito]

What the fuck is your problem? These people had no intention to purchase something yet they did due to some bizarre quirk.

Hey Sony. Umm...I "accidentally" downloaded a game and I chan...I mean don't want it. Can I have my money back?

 

[Socreges]

Hey Sony. Umm...I "accidentally" downloaded a game and I chan...I mean don't want it. Can I have my money back?

Sony could very easily refund these individuals, put a warning up on their website next to the advocacy of the DS4/PS3 feature (or alternatively, a caveat saying the system is not perfect and users do it at their own risk), and wipe their hands clean of the situation. Anyone that wants a refund in the future is then told that they were warned. Pretty simple and reasonable.

 

[Branduil]

Hey Sony. Umm...I "accidentally" downloaded a game and I chan...I mean don't want it. Can I have my money back?

Did they play it? Did they even download it? If the answer to both is no then it should be easy for them to revoke the license and refund the money.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

If EA can do it (even if you've played it they still give refunds after 24 hours, 7 days if you haven't) so can Sony. And they have done it for other people in the past.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

I'm ticketing this thread back to SCEA management so they are at least aware of the issue outside of Support.

Nice of you to do this. You didn't have to but it's so good you did.

 

[Sorian]

Hey Sony. Umm...I "accidentally" downloaded a game and I chan...I mean don't want it. Can I have my money back?

I return things after changing my mind all the time, what's your point?

 

[darkside31337]

I return things after changing my mind all the time, what's your point?

You can't return games and other media at most places once you open the shrink wrap.

Really the simplest solution is if you download the file then you can't get a refund on it.

And password really should be required on all purchases. Ideally a 4 digit pin that isn't tied to your account password actually.

 

[Tidus_Great]

another reason why digital gaming sucks. i can't accidentely buy a physical version. physical version master race checking in

 

[Sorian]

You can't return games and other media at most places once you open the shrink wrap.

Really the simplest solution is if you download the file then you can't get a refund on it.

And password really should be required on all purchases. Ideally a 4 digit pin that isn't tied to your account password actually.

Ok? No one ever said I opened the shrink wrap and these people never played these games. You should be able to get a refund if you download it because the PS4 starts the download automatically after buying, it's if you boot the game where the refund should no longer be an option.

 

[caleb1915]

He should get a refund, even if it was a stupid mistake.

Sony shouldn't be assuming all their customers are liars in the first place.

 

[Zertez]

Sony has given me refunds in the past, but it took a few weeks going back and forth. They have never refunded me cash or put the money back on my credit card though, they just gave the money back to spend on other psn things.

 

[FritoBandito]

Did they play it? Did they even download it? If the answer to both is no then it should be easy for them to revoke the license and refund the money.

Is there a way to track that besides trophies?

 

[Triple U]

Idk. I don't see how OP deserves a refund based on making an avoidable mistake. This doesn't seem any different from a kid mistakenly getting hold of a controller and buying shit. A mistake? Yes. Avoidable? Yes.

It'd be a good show of faith to refund but I don't see where they should be bound to it. It has nothing to do with defending Sony. I don't think any similar DD service would play ball with this nor would I expect them to.

 

[Snuggles]

I've received refunds from Apple on several occasions when I accidentally purchased something on my phone.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Idk. I don't see how OP deserves a refund based on making an avoidable mistake. This doesn't seem any different from a kid mistakenly getting hold of a controller and buying shit. A mistake? Yes. Avoidable? Yes.

I think it's reasonable to expect that if I plug my controller into console X, it's not going to control console Y wirelessly in the next room. This is a fault of the DS4.

 

[jbw]

This same thing happened to me, except I didn't accidentally buy anything, I instead somehow managed to past this one mission in GTAV that was giving me fits. Wow, lucky I guess. ^_^

 

[jimi_dini]

Ask me this,

How can Sony stop the DS4 from being connected to the PS3 and the PS4 at the same time when,

A) The PS3 doesn't know what a DS4 is, it sees a generic USB controller

B) The DS4\PS4 connection is the only wireless connection the DS4 supports

C) The PS3 never syncs to the DS4, since it doesn't know what a DS4 is.

The only way for Sony to prevent the controller from being working on both consoles at once is for Sony to prevent it from connecting to the PS3 and PC and the only reason it does that in the first place is due to the way USB works.

All of this doesn't matter. Yes, Sony can't do really anything about it anymore, because they fucked up already unless DS4 has the ability to patch its own firmware. Which may even be the case. The Wii U gamepad for example is patchable.

In any case they could have implemented functionality into the DS4 to avoid it.

USB is a protocol. Which means the DS4 knows, when it's just connected via USB and connected via USB including communicating over it. It knows, when it's not plugged in over USB, just plugged in and when there is communication involved.

Which means Sony could have detected it being plugged in and communicating with PC/PS3. And then just not transmitting button presses etc over wireless during that time.

You may now complain about that behaviour and that you would want to plug it into PS3 to charge it while playing on PS4. For that case, they could have implemented an option, switchable on PS4, where PS4 sends the DS4 a special command to disable/enable USB controller functionality. Make that default to on, so that the user can turn it off in case he/she wants to play on PS4, while charging it on a device, that gets controller input at the same time. Would be pretty strange anyway, because the user could simply charge it using PS4 in that case.

This doesn't seem any different from a kid mistakenly getting hold of a controller and buying shit. A mistake? Yes. Avoidable? Yes.

I don't see it that way at all.
Noone pressed buttons at random. The person was actually playing a game on PS3 and the controller sent out commands to PS4 as well. That's like having a wireless mouse, which is sync'd to one of your PCs. And the mouse also has USB support. Now you connect that mouse to your notebook to buy something on steam. And instead of acting like a proper input device, the mouse sends your inputs over USB and to your PC at the same time, resulting in your buying something twice. I can't blame the user, especially when the manufacturer of the mouse didn't list this "feature" anywhere and also didn't warn him. I would blame the manufacturer.

It simply makes no sense for 1 input device to send the data to 2 consoles/PCs at the same time. There is simply no reason to do so. It's a design oversight. Errors happen. Manufacturer should simply fix the issue.

 

[Jedi2016]

I think it's reasonable to expect that if I plug my controller into console X, it's not going to control console Y wirelessly in the next room.

Perfectly reasonable. If you disconnected it from the PS4 first. Which doesn't seem to have happened in any of these recorded situations. An incorrect assumption was made about how these controllers work.

And why on earth would it be in the next room? My PS4 is less than a foot away from my PS3.

 

[Sorian]

And why on earth would it be in the next room? My PS4 is less than a foot away from my PS3.

People have more than one tv?

 

[Triple U]

I think it's reasonable to expect that if I plug my controller into console X, it's not going to control console Y wirelessly in the next room. This is a fault of the DS4.

If controller Y is designed for and synced to console Y, it's pretty logical to think that controller Y will control console Y if it's on. I'm not even sure DS4 is officially supported on PS3.

FYI the same thing happened on PS3 if you plug a DS3 in your PC.

 

[btags]

I feel bad for the people who are losing money on this, but I must admit, it is an interesting problem to have. Who would have thought to check for this in any sort of QA or whatever for the DS4's ps3 support? Anyways, I hope sony changes there stance on this to help those affected by it.

 

[threetri333]

I don't have a PS4, but aren't you supposed to input your password before making a purchase?

 

[Jazzy Network]

Sony should refund all these shit games I ''accidentally'' downloaded last year. Yeah that's it.

 

[Triple U]

All of this doesn't matter. Yes, Sony can't do really anything about it anymore, because they fucked up already unless DS4 has the ability to patch its own firmware. Which may even be the case. The Wii U gamepad for example is patchable.

In any case they could have implemented functionality into the DS4 to avoid it.

USB is a protocol. Which means the DS4 knows, when it's just connected via USB and connected via USB including communicating over it. It knows, when it's not plugged in over USB, just plugged in and when there is communication involved.

Which means Sony could have detected it being plugged in and communicating with PC/PS3. And then just not transmitting button presses etc over wireless during that time.

You may now complain about that behaviour and that you would want to plug it into PS3 to charge it while playing on PS4. For that case, they could have implemented an option, switchable on PS4, where PS4 sends the DS4 a special command to disable/enable USB controller functionality. Make that default to on, so that the user can turn it off in case he/she wants to play on PS4, while charging it on a device, that gets controller input at the same time. Would be pretty strange anyway, because the user could simply charge it using PS4 in that case.



I don't see it that way at all.
Noone pressed buttons at random. The person was actually playing a game on PS3 and the controller sent out commands to PS4 as well. That's like having a wireless mouse, which is sync'd to one of your PCs. And the mouse also has USB support. Now you connect that mouse to your notebook to buy something on steam. And instead of acting like a proper input device, the mouse sends your inputs over USB and to your PC at the same time, resulting in your buying something twice. I can't blame the user, especially when the manufacturer of the mouse didn't list this "feature" anywhere and also didn't warn him. I would blame the manufacturer.

It simply makes no sense for 1 input device to send the data to 2 consoles/PCs at the same time. There is simply no reason to do so. It's a design oversight. Errors happen. Manufacturer should simply fix the issue.

It's a design flaw sure but it only manifests on, what I'm assuming isn't authorized use from Sony.

It could've easily be patched out sure, but why should Sony be obligated to clean this up when the device isn't even officially supported on the PS3. This is the same kind of issue that used to happen with unlicensed controllers on PS1/N64/DC that had subpar functionality.

It's just a stupid mistake.

 

[Jedi2016]

I don't have a PS4, but aren't you supposed to input your password before making a purchase?

Honestly, I can't recall. Mine hasn't done so lately, but I haven't purchased anything involving money since right around launch. Everything I've downloaded has been free through PS+, and it hasn't asked me for a password. I believe it does if I do something involving money, though.

What exactly do people think will happen here? Did you plan to start something when you came here to GAF to talk about this "issue"? Because now everyone knows, and people will be doing this shit, saying that they "accidentally" purchased a game that they simply don't like. Maybe not you, or you, but someone will. And you know what will happen then?

Sony will close this loophole.

One of two things will happen as a result of this, and you can write this down. DS4 support will be removed from PS3, or passwords will be mandatory for all purchases from the store, regardless of personal preference. We'll be lucky if it isn't both. And please tell me which of these outcomes is beneficial to the gamer, please, because I'm not seeing it.

 

[level44]

brb about to get a refund on all my digital PS4 games so I can buy them physically for cheaper.

 

[David___]

I feel bad for the people who are losing money on this, but I must admit, it is an interesting problem to have. Who would have thought to check for this in any sort of QA or whatever for the DS4's ps3 support?

What QA? The PS3 doesn't support the DS4 at all.

 

[Sassen]

Since the user connected his DualShock 4 to the PS4, didn't disconnect it and then wired it to the PS3, I can only see the user being at fault. This definitely falls in the tough breaks category.

 

[VillageBC]

I accidently bought Minecraft meaning to purchase Tearaway. Sony refunded the money sort of, by refund they gave me credit. Not as ideal as being given back your money, but better then nothing.

The correct way to deal with this problem is to have it legislated into law minimum refund practices. Force their hand.

 

[tino]

On the one hand, I do think Sony should provide a no question ask refund windows (of 1 hour, 30 mins, whatever) even Android Play store has a 15 minutes window.

On the other hand, just imagine you complain phone call with BBB or Consumer Report

You: " I was using the PS4 controllee on the PS3 and as a result the PS4 controller was also controlling the PS4 and purchased games blind."
BBB: "Wait what?"

 

[Drager]

1. DS4 is not officially supported but the PS3 and I find it hilarious that there are now people that insist on playing their PS3s with a controller that just happens to work because they are so unhappy with the normal controller built by Sony to please one person's franchise (Gran Turismo). Your desperation for something better feeds my soul.

2. Sony does offer refunds in certain but not all situations mostly not though. I got a refund for a game when all I wanted was just the difference between the regular and PS+ price back. (Stupid webstore screws up on me all the time... it's terrible.)

3. Sony could easily patch out support for the DS4 even though is shows up as a Generic USB controller. They can just read the USB header information that's unique to the controller and block it. I hope they do, cause people like the OP should not be cost them money over their own stupidity.

4. This is really all the OPs fault. Suck it up.

5. I can't believe this thread is 23 pages long. What is wrong with all you?

 

[Dart]

I don't have a PS4, but aren't you supposed to input your password before making a purchase?

Yes. Because it's optional, I set it up as soon as I got my PS4.

Let's just say I've made one or two... or more "accidental" purchases in the past.
It won't stop you from compulsive shopping/buyer's remorse though, remember that :/

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

I'm trying to say it's a typo, and that the support page is still valid as evidence of Sony supporting the DS4 on the PS3.

Seriously, man. This is academic.

If Sony supported the DS4 on the PS3, it would have full on support, but it doesn't.

The PS button is not mapped, a list of games are not compatible, and it cannot connect wireless.

Sony supporting the DS4 on the PS3 wouldn't be a useless PS button or other mentioned flaws, and if that was the case, there would be problems with supporting a product that is not optimized on the system. An article being a guide for those who want to game on the DS4 via PS3 is not supporting a product. When does a company officially announce support for a product through a guide? If anything, its a total reach.

Its almost like you're trying to be ignorant on this as others have already said this and you stubbornly disregard it.

 

[Detox]

I'd like to watch someone play two different games at the same time with the same controller.

 

[Tevious]

Really the simplest solution is if you download the file then you can't get a refund on it.

And password really should be required on all purchases. Ideally a 4 digit pin that isn't tied to your account password actually.

So much, this. Get to it, Sony.

 

[Melchiah]

• Set password verification.
• Don't link your credit/debit card to the PSN account.
• If you use the DS4 on the PS3, plug the PS4 off from the web, or turn it off completely.

I really don't see how any company could be expected to refund when the fault lies in the user's end.

After the PS4 is started Up Left X and you're in the store. I think Sony considers this quick way of accessing the store a convenience.

It is, and it shouldn't be changed because of something like this. Just set the password verification on, if you find it too easy to buy stuff from there.

 

[JrBaconCheeseburger]

How do you accidentally purchase a game ?


Serious question

 

[The Nature Roy]

I've received refunds from Apple on several occasions when I accidentally purchased something on my phone.

Amazon did the same for my girlfriend when her niece bought some stuff on her Kindle. Actually, Amazon customer service is super agreeable in my experience. My Kindle re-formatted on its own once and I lost a few internet bookmarks and had to re-download a few books and they gave me $25 for my trouble.

I've only dealt with Sony customer service once. I bought the digital version of The Last of Us on release. I played for an hour and my PS3 promptly died (permanently). That was going to be my PS3's last hurrah before upgrading to a PS4 anyway, so not a huge deal.

However, it would have been nice if I could have been reimbursed for the game since I would not be able to play it again. I asked: 'Nope -- no refunds -- all sales are final.'

That's fine. They may not have been wrong, but their competitors in the digital service space are a whole lot more inviting. There's no way I'd ever rent a movie through PSN when I can turn to Amazon, etc.

 

[Vylsith]

It's likely an issue with drivers being similar between the PS3 and PS4. I really doubt Bluetooth would work for the DS4 on the PS3. Anyone who does this likely has to connect via a cable. Well, just like when you connect to a PC it doesn't pair with the PC or the PS3. It won't change which console the controller is designated to control. So when you push that power button on the controller, even if it's plugged into a PC or a PS3, it will still turn on the PS4 and control the PS4. It's sending out a wireless signal and as far as the PS4 is concerned it's supposed to be controlled by the PS4. It's honestly not strange that it works the way it does. It would be strange if it didn't. It's possible that Sony could do an OS update to give the PS3 the ability to pair with the DS4, but that defeats the purpose. The DS4 will also never work as well as the DS3 on the PS3 due to design. More than likely Sony will update the PS3 to not accept any input from the DS4. The Xbox One would likely have the same issue if they didn't use proprietary connections.

It probably would've been possible to design the DS4 to turn off wireless functionality when it's plugged in through a USB connection, but if it wasn't designed that way it probably can't be changed through a firmware update. Most devices that pair don't turn off their wireless functionality unless they have an airplane mode.

 

[Ranger X]

People defending Sony by technical reasons are really hilarious.
When you create a product, you try to make it as user friendly as possible and as idiot proof as possible. This is how you make a good product, plain an simple. Not only this should be refunded if only on good will because its not wide spread and simply not a situation where they will lose any important money but mostly people it keeps a good image of their customer service. This is more important than anything else on this whole story.

As for the technical side, there are technical ways to detect if something is passing through the wire and through the antenna. The design solution or fix is easy. Both shouldn't work at the same time. That's all. If you could recharge your DS4 plugged in something else while playing PS4 then tuff luck, that isn't as important as someone being able to buy something by mistake. A firmware patch on the PS4 side should easily fix this small problem. Another easy fix could be to to add some drivers on the PS3 and detect the PS4 controller in order to block it. Problem solved here again. Minimal effort.

 

[JaseC]

The PS button on the DS4 does nothing when connected to the PS3 or other USB hosts AFAICT.

Ah.

 

[Cbajd5]

Seriously, man. This is academic.

If Sony supported the DS4 on the PS3, it would have full on support, but it doesn't.

The PS button is not mapped, a list of games are not compatible, and it cannot connect wireless.

Sony supporting the DS4 on the PS3 wouldn't be a useless PS button or other mentioned flaws, and if that was the case, there would be problems with supporting a product that is not optimized on the system. An article being a guide for those who want to game on the DS4 via PS3 is not supporting a product. When does a company officially announce support for a product through a guide? If anything, its a total reach.

Its almost like you're trying to be ignorant on this as others have already said this and you stubbornly disregard it.

Why are people disregarding the official support page stating how users can use their Dualshock4's with their PS3s?

If they didn't support it they'd have a official page stating so, just like they do in regards to PS3 controllers being used on PC.

If that seems like too much work, then they'd do the least work possible and not have an official support page on how they support it. If they didn't want to support it at all they'd have put something in the DualShock4 or the PS3's firmware that would make it unsupported through USB, like they did for Bluetooth support. Or they'd have done something similar to what they did with PS3 controllers aren't supported on PCs without additional software.

But I guess allowing it to work with the PS3 at all, putting official support pages on their website in regards to how they support you using that support they put in, and not putting a page on there on how it isn't supported like they did with their previous controllers means they don't support it.

Partial support is still support.

(Also, plenty of companies detail support for features in support pages. That's why they're there, so people know certain specific actions are supported by the company and their products. It's why nearly every time there's some thread for question about NNID's on the 3DS I link people to Nintendo's support pages document on how it works.)

 

[Quote]

Hey atleast it wasnt their nephew.

I would have lost faith in all of GAF if someone didn't mention a nephew on the first page. Good job, BlackBuzzard.

 

[_hekk05]

I go to sleep and people are still going on about DS4 supporting PS3. No it doesn't.

The only reason you can use a DS4 with the PS3 is because the PS3 supports generic USB controllers. That's it.

Why is the DS4 a generic USB controller? Because Sony isn't being a dick that forces you to use a proprietary controller. If you have another generic USB controller, it works on the PS3 and PS4 as well.

If you already have the DS4 connected to a PS4, you expect the DS4 to control that PS4. If you plug in the DS4 into a PS3, you expect the controller to charge and still control the PS4. If you notice you control the PS3 now, you should not assume that it has stopped controlling the PS4.Full stop.


Also, we are arguing whether Sony is obliged to refund the guys. Not whether they should, but whether they must. And it is my opinion that Sony shouldn't be obliged to refund such a stupid and easily preventable mistake that is also prone to abuse.

A half hour refund window would be pretty sweet though

 

[fvng]

While I can understand how annoying this must be for people, I don't really see why Sony have to sort out their fuck-ups for them.

aaaaand this thread is a wrap

 

[Triple U]

Why are people disregarding the official support page stating how users can use their Dualshock4's with their PS3s?

If they didn't support it they'd have a official page stating so, just like they do in regards to PS3 controllers being used on PC.

If that seems like too much work, then they'd do the least work possible and not have an official support page on how they support it. If they didn't want to support it at all they'd have put something in the DualShock4 or the PS3's firmware that would make it unsupported through USB, like they did for Bluetooth support. Or they'd have done something similar to what they did with PS3 controllers aren't supported on PCs without additional software.

But I guess allowing it to work with the PS3 at all, putting official support pages on their website in regards to how they support you using that support they put in, and not putting a page on there on how it isn't supported like they did with their previous controllers means they don't support it.

Partial support is still support.

(Also, plenty of companies detail support for features in support pages. That's why they're there, so people know certain specific actions are supported by the company and their products. It's why nearly every time there's some thread for question about NNID's on the 3DS I link people to Nintendo's support pages document on how it works.)

Eh, that doesn't mean it's officially supported. It's just like PC, it works plug and play but only in basic functionality. With PC though, supposedly, there are official drivers on the way. We haven't vote any such promises with PS3.

If anything, that page stating that the Bluetooth radios are incompatable should be a clue that the PS3 can't take control of the DS4 transmitter.