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MGSV: Ground Zeroes - Spoilers Thread - #TeamBowie
- Thread starter Batzi
- Start date
AuthenticM
Member
Yeah, probably.
KittenMaster
Member
Maybe by this time, Zero became one, and Cipher became zero. The characters think Cipher is Zero, and only Skullface knows because Paz told him that Zero became one.
I'm thinking more along the lines that Zero is to Cipher what Kaz is to Big Boss. By MGS3 they already had a falling over Cipher attempting to sacrifice The Boss to The Sorrow. The Boss went missing because she had to take up The Sorrow's role for Cipher.
Now think of the Virtuous Mission...
-Zero sends Snake in to rescue Sokolov, hasn't had any contact with either Cipher or The Boss in years
-Cipher sends his man in GRU, Ocelot, to help The Boss smuggle Sokolov out of the Soviet Union before Volgin gets his hands on him
The Cartographer
Member
Cipher is a person?
The Cartographer
Member
It's Major Zero from MGS 3.
I thought it was an organization led by Zero.
WrenchNinja
Member
why doesn't snake just call him zero
Well yeah Cipher is the name of the organization but Cipher also means Zero and sometimes they refer to Zero as Cipher and it's not Cipher the organization but Cipher the person they talk about.
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KittenMaster
Member
I interpret "Cipher" to be an organization headed by Zero (but also Zero, because he loves himself), and that they weren't around for Operation Snake Eater (an attempt by the CIA to recover the Legacy only for Zero to end up with it after the San Heironymo incident.)
This too. Likely a deliberate reference because the Patriots were using that Cypher to eventually screw Snake's reputation that night.. "Cipher watches all", and to that day they still did. Also makes me wonder if Cipher are basically The Patriots' intelligence organization (use of spies like Paz to gather intel) just like the mechanical Cyphers were for the modern age.
Statue of Limitation
Member
I always gathered this to be right, Cypher is the intelligence agency of The Patriots and probably the part Ocelot works for - that's why Zero wanted Big Boss and his various merc teams to be the army.
I think "Cipher" was once someone. A Colonel Cipher if you will. Ocelot thought he was playing someone during Snake Eater - the non-extremist leader of GRU who wanted Volgin and the Boss gone but still intended to oust Khrushchev. I think the name "The Patriots" will be first used in Phantom Pain to refer to Zero's faction - named after the question and password he and Cipher instructed their agents to use. Later the AI would misinterpret what happened as "The Patriots" being founded by the "Wiseman's Comittee" and "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" being the "secret name" and Big Boss being the "password." FOX vs. XOF ~ FOXHOUND vs. GRU. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that much like Zero is actually British, Cipher is actually Japanese.
I also think the arm Ocelot lost in MGS1 was Big Boss', this is what he used to gain access secret parts of the AIs network with his partner and secret founder of ArmsTech, Miller. But Liquid caught on and had Miller killed, impersonating him not just to Snake but Ocelot as well.
I also think the arm Ocelot lost in MGS1 was Big Boss', this is what he used to gain access secret parts of the AIs network with his partner and secret founder of ArmsTech, Miller. But Liquid caught on and had Miller killed, impersonating him not just to Snake but Ocelot as well.
Rogue Agent
Banned
In addition to being a private intelligence agency, Cipher basically means Zero.
Or maybe now they have to now delay the game to make it not true?
Here's the best way I can describe what I think is going on.
Ground Zeroes
1. Mother Base is attacked by "XOF." Destroyed.
2. Helicopter crash leads to Snake going into the coma at the end. Loses left arm from elbow down, likely in the crash.
The Phantom Pain
1. The hospital attack is the dream sequence that leads Snake out of his coma after 9 years.
2. Ishmael is a figment of Snake's mind. Snake is "Ahab." Ishmael was a character/the narrator in Moby Dick. Ishmael is also characterized as a wanderer, or outcast. Combine this with the figment of Snake's mind, and you can draw a comparison to Snake -- now without MSF or FOXHOUND, without Kaz Miller, without Chico, without Morpho, without anything or anyone -- is a wanderer. A Phantom.
When you finally "escape," that's when Snake wakes up.
3. "The Phantom Pain" is a double entendre of sorts. It refers to a) the literal phantom pain that Snake feels in his left arm due to the amputation, and b) the "phantom pain" of the comrades of MSF he lost on Mother Base in the attack. There is a narrational allusion to both of these at the end of the Ground Zeroes main mission.
4. "Two Phantoms" -- Skull Face and Snake/Big Boss. Skull Face/XOF was always a phantom. Everyone thinks Big Boss is dead -- therefore he is also a phantom.
5. The Diamond Dogs are Snake's new outfit. With MSF gone, Snake needs a new operation. They're "dogs of war" who are "diamonds in the rough."
Ground Zeroes
1. Mother Base is attacked by "XOF." Destroyed.
2. Helicopter crash leads to Snake going into the coma at the end. Loses left arm from elbow down, likely in the crash.
The Phantom Pain
1. The hospital attack is the dream sequence that leads Snake out of his coma after 9 years.
2. Ishmael is a figment of Snake's mind. Snake is "Ahab." Ishmael was a character/the narrator in Moby Dick. Ishmael is also characterized as a wanderer, or outcast. Combine this with the figment of Snake's mind, and you can draw a comparison to Snake -- now without MSF or FOXHOUND, without Kaz Miller, without Chico, without Morpho, without anything or anyone -- is a wanderer. A Phantom.
When you finally "escape," that's when Snake wakes up.
3. "The Phantom Pain" is a double entendre of sorts. It refers to a) the literal phantom pain that Snake feels in his left arm due to the amputation, and b) the "phantom pain" of the comrades of MSF he lost on Mother Base in the attack. There is a narrational allusion to both of these at the end of the Ground Zeroes main mission.
4. "Two Phantoms" -- Skull Face and Snake/Big Boss. Skull Face/XOF was always a phantom. Everyone thinks Big Boss is dead -- therefore he is also a phantom.
5. The Diamond Dogs are Snake's new outfit. With MSF gone, Snake needs a new operation. They're "dogs of war" who are "diamonds in the rough."
KittenMaster
Member
Yeah... it seems like the idea of Cipher being a separate person stems from assuming that they'll make retcons, very specific retcons, declaring that an off screen person is in fact Cipher, and that the AI would conveniently screw up in order to set continuity in line.
If there's anybody acting as the "Kaz" in relation to Zero, it is definitely Ocelot. Ocelot pretty much played all three factions of the Philosophers and collected the Legacy for Zero's gain.
Thinking about all of this though makes me think that Skullface might be working for somebody (or, hey, it could be Skullface himself) that has a beef with Zero obtaining the entire Legacy and forming his own Philosphers. This would also explain why his military unit is called XOF, as a mirror of Zero's old FOX unit and a declaration of their opposition to him.
If there's anybody acting as the "Kaz" in relation to Zero, it is definitely Ocelot. Ocelot pretty much played all three factions of the Philosophers and collected the Legacy for Zero's gain.
Thinking about all of this though makes me think that Skullface might be working for somebody (or, hey, it could be Skullface himself) that has a beef with Zero obtaining the entire Legacy and forming his own Philosphers. This would also explain why his military unit is called XOF, as a mirror of Zero's old FOX unit and a declaration of their opposition to him.
1974:
PW:
CIA Peace Sentinel < Hot Coldman
vs.
FSLN < MSF < Big Boss < Paz < Kaz < Zero < "Cipher" < Zadornov
1975:
GZ:
CIA Camp Omega < "Cipher" < XOF < Skull Face
1976-1984:
TPP:
Diamond Dogs < Big Boss
vs.
"Cipher"
XOF < Skull Face
+ GRU
PW:
CIA Peace Sentinel < Hot Coldman
vs.
FSLN < MSF < Big Boss < Paz < Kaz < Zero < "Cipher" < Zadornov
< KGB Alpha Group
1975:
GZ:
CIA Camp Omega < "Cipher" < XOF < Skull Face
< KGB Vympel
1976-1984:
TPP:
Diamond Dogs < Big Boss
< Kaz < CIA FOXHOUND < Campbell < "Zero" < Ocelot + EVA
"Cipher"
XOF < Skull Face
< KGB Vympel
< Sergei < "Cipher"
KittenMaster
Member
What are the <'s supposed to represent?
Who they really work for even if they don't know it.
KittenMaster
Member
That... is a very loose definition of "work for".
I'm not even sure I want to debate the theory on the basis that I'm confused about how it is even supposed to work.
I'm not even sure I want to debate the theory on the basis that I'm confused about how it is even supposed to work.
BrokenIcarus
Member
Zero works for Kaz??
You kind of need to look at it in the context of the geopolitical situation of the 80s. The Soviet Union starting getting aggressive and then feuds destroyed it. I think "Cipher" is a code name used by Ocelot to impersonate whoever he pretended to work for in GRU during Operation Snake Eater. The KGB probably weren't happy when Ocelot stole back their half of The Legacy and gave it to Zero. "XOF" is Kojima's super villain version of the Red Army Faction. Ocelot'll abandon GRU and cut off serious ties with Russia after he realizes his own bid for power created room for Skull Face to grow. Eventually even his upcoming "Hey, I'm working with your old Major Zero, but don't tell anyone. What? He's definitely not in a coma or an AI I made Strangelove build. He even said he stopped that cloning thing you were so upset about!" benevolent lie will backfire in 1995.
FOX vs. XOF
"Zero" vs. "Cipher"
FOXHOUND vs. Vympel
Diamond Dogs vs. Those Who "Don't Exist"
Ocelot vs. Skull Face
Other way around. Zero approached him with a "business" offer (ArmsTech?) on behalf of "Cipher" if he fed him info on Snake and Paz.
The Cartographer
Member
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I cannot believe that I never made the connection that
FOX + Diamond Dogs
Fox + Dogs
Another way to say dog is hound.
Foxhound
FOX + Diamond Dogs
Fox + Dogs
Another way to say dog is hound.
Foxhound
Have you seen the second ending of Peace Walker? She basically says "Hahaha, I've been using you all!" but Kaz then tells Snake that he knew about all about her identity, what she was doing, and was in on it.
KittenMaster
Member
There's no evidence that Cipher is not Zero or not his organization at the present time. What I'm seeing is both fan narrative of unknown events and a poorly mapped hierarchy of the spy game which is somehow supposed to show a new character exists.
Isn't this overthinking it? Unit was called FOX. The unit set up to hunt fox was FOXHOUND.
I think you're over analyzing it. FOXHOUND was created to go after FOX.
The Silver
Member
Kaz got in bed with them because he wanted to expand MSF by any means necessary, he fucked up by severely underestimating Cipher.
He comes clean to BB and BB forgives him so its all good.
To a degree, but he did eventually tell Big Boss about his dealings with Cipher at the end of Peace Walker, and broke the business relationship with them when he discovered Cipher's intention of launching a Nuke on the east coast and having MSF take the blame.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
That just makes it all more perfect, though. It's both a homage to Snake's other units and a metaphor for chasing down Zero.
Obviously, it wasn't intended this way from the start, but I think it works out in a really nice "look at all the pieces fit together" way if you look at it like this.
After reading and watching videos on the MGS story, I gave this a shot. The gameplay felt really good, and I am enjoying playing through the side ops missions. I am assuming that when Kaz says "What about him" in the GDC trailer,he is referring to the medic, since he didn't call him by name? I am still slightly confused with the story so far, but I can't wait until the phantom pain!
uomoartificiale
Member
This. Kaz is essentially doing things behind big boss' back with good intentions. I found this quite funny in PW, because it remarked how much everyone considered snake senile. It practically was like kaz saying: let's do this deal with cypher but nobody tell granpa snake, or we'll never hear the end of it...
Plasma Snake
Banned
Enjoyed the demo more than i thought i would (helps i only payed 20 for the ps4 version). Cant wait for TPP.
Oh yea, this thread made me finally register for GAF. There are quite some interesting theories in here to say the least.
Oh yea, this thread made me finally register for GAF. There are quite some interesting theories in here to say the least.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Yeah, Kaz's whole "business partnership" with Cipher never really made sense to me. From a narrative standpoint, I mean. Was it just added for extra shock value? Seemed really unnecessary.
Welcome to the fold.
I'm really, really surprised that your username wasn't already taken, haha.
Welcome to the fold.
Not quite what he said during that cutscene.
In other words, it was a typical Kojima twist.
Kojima said that was himself lol. He was getting meta asking if he as a game designer was ok.
Ghost King
Neo Member
Didn't Kojima actually meant that the third guy was himself, as his in game avatar Hideo?, the guy that you recruit in PW and help in GZ?
He says that Paz was connected to both Cipher and, along with Zadornov, the Russians, he then goes on to say MSF would never have gotten as big if it weren't for 'them'. I think it's safe to say he's admitting doing business with Cipher at that point. Even the Metal Gear wiki cites that scene as Kaz's admission of doing business with them.
He did say it was himself, but I have some doubts Kojima would insert himself into such an important scene, especially by putting focus on himself by making Kaz ask "what about him?" At a guess, I think Kojima dodged answering who the third person by making a joke.
If you watch the GDC 2013 interview with Geoff Keighley he makes it clear that its himself as a game designer. Whether thats true or not is yet to been seen.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
On Kaz being a traitor, while he did say to Big Boss he knew who Paz and Zadornov were the entire time, he didn't really say where he got the info from, right?
Another question, when did Snake learn about the existence of the group called Cipher? I feel like I've known it the entire time, but I haven't been able to put a finger on the exact moment they mentioned them. Was it Paz who said "Cipher wants this to be done!" or something?
Another question, when did Snake learn about the existence of the group called Cipher? I feel like I've known it the entire time, but I haven't been able to put a finger on the exact moment they mentioned them. Was it Paz who said "Cipher wants this to be done!" or something?
I too would like to know this. And also, what happened with Les Enfants Terribles... the project was carried out before GZ and PW, but I feel like it is never mentioned or given enough importance.
Not that we know of, just that he knew who they were really working for.
Juan29.zapata said:
When Paz pilots Zeke and mentioned Cipher, Big Boss does act like it's the first time he's heard the name, but he could just as easily be surprised at hearing the name again, it's not quite 100% clear.
Aleph said:
At the end of MGS3 it states during the history credit crawl that the Les Enfants Terribles project took place in 1972, 2 years before Peace Walker.
Yet at the end of Ground Zeroes we discover that "the Les Enfants Terribles Project is abandoned"
I'm guessing Kojima will retcon it by saying the 1972 experiment was a failure, hence why the project was ultimately abandoned, and after Big Boss goes into his coma in MGSV, that's when the successful cloning project takes place. It could explain why his arm is missing, as it would have been prime material to work with when trying to clone his genes.
Knowing about Cipher / working with Cipher... Sounds like two entirely different things to me.
It's not like you need to cut the arm of a comatose man to get some DNA. ^^;;
Also, the coma thing was a mistranslation in the English version of Metal Gear Solid.
Also also, that would mean Eli either 1) isn't Liquid after all, or 2) is 8.
i don't think we'll be seeing a retcon. i see the 'abandoned' part of that addition to the timeline as a more literal abandon, with cipher/the patriots moving in other directions rather than putting all their eggs in one basket with the snake siblings.
as for the arm, you wouldn't need that much to get the cells for cloning. besides, with big boss in a coma, they could take any kind of tissue sample they want without any trouble.
regarding the arm, i've got a theory. sorry if this has been brought up by someone else.
big boss does not lose the arm in the crash. it doesn't even get damaged.
hear me out. instead, it's amputated purposefully while big boss is in the coma by... maybe XOF (which might clash with XOF coming for him 9 years later... i'll explain in a moment). there's a strong theme of mutilation by XOF in GZ, with paz having organs removed, chico and the hole in his chest, the "eye" and the "finger" self mutilating in the side-ops mission. taking big boss' arm plays into that. it also acts as an insurance policy for if he ever wakes from the coma. we already see how much body weight he drops, missing an arm too would make him easy pickings (this is why XOF come for him 9 years later. what's the point in killing big boss while he's in a coma when they can play the waiting game and kill him when he's terrified, powerless, and mutilated).