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MGSV: Ground Zeroes - Spoilers Thread - #TeamBowie
- Thread starter Batzi
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KittenMaster
Member
Right now I'm thinking that the loss of technology stems largely from MSF being destroyed and thus all of their research they have done has been lost. Notice how the Afghanistan gameplay they had shown in TPP featured a Snake that had to depend entirely on his own wits because he's left with nothing but the most basic tools at that point.
CambriaRising
Member
Yeah, the 1980s digital watch sticks out to me as evidence for this.
In terms of technology developed? I don't think so. PW had freaking singing flying robots in 1974. They put any kind of metal gear to shame. ZEKE wasn't supposed to even exist and that's a main mission. Not only he does, as he is stronger, faster and better designed than MGS's Rex. MG TX-55 is a joke in comparison.
And at the end of the E3 trailer they mention that cypher begun R&D on something to surpass metal gear.I wonder wtf is Kojima smoking. MG Ray/ Gekkos are small time against the marvelous technical innovations of the 70's. He's getting overboard with this. The iDroid really stuck out of place, for me. A portable holographic map in 1974. Even if you take the development of Soliton Radar in PW as canon, it's ridiculous. If you don't, then it gets even more assinine.
This series is starting to enter Resident Evil level in terms of "screw continuity". All of these weird ass theories and random bits/thoughts can all be rendered useless if he keeps retconing everything.
It really isn't hard to write a huge, epic saga spawning through 7 decades if you keep backpedalling on your own thought process, Kojima.
But why wouldn't he be able to use it, at least in GZ, before the base was destroyed?
It's so jarring to play the older games and compare them in terms of tech: what we thought to be really cool advanced tech in mgs1 is just kinda ancient in GZ. The only game that kinda holds up is mgs4, as octocamo is too OP to mess with, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kojima manages to insert his nanomachine fetish in TPP, one way or another.
KittenMaster
Member
In fairness, MG-Rex was not built for combat, it was built to fire a stealth nuclear missile (so out-performing previously existing Metal Gears wasn't a priority), and it was also the first Metal Gear that was designed (by Granin), and whose plans and documents were used as a basis for all of Peace Walker's Metal Gears.
what
ichtyander
Member
Anachronisms like those appear in other works of fiction, especially in the case of prequels and we all know how Kojima handles these things. I mean, PW for me was completely outlandish, having walking machines with AIs in '74 that were several times the size of Metal Gear REX. Not only that, we see Big Boss using the iDroid but that's just probably MSF tech. God knows what Cipher actually has in store. We see some cyborg-like ninjas in the trailer, they already made the clones by that point and who knows what kind of Metal Gear is waiting in TPP. If they ever make remakes of MG1 and 2 I'd imagine the technology will be vastly different from what was presented in the original games. It happens all the time in various media (especially with Kojima) so I wouldn't really put that much importance into it.
I'm not really up to date to all of the theories, was him not having the horn when on the gurney confirmed or anything like that? I remember there was some speculation you can see a triangular shape that's conveniently covered by the doctors/camera/Big Boss' hair.
Anyway, if he in fact doesn't have the horn in that scene, it's possible that the medic from the chopper is the one with the horn, since he stood in front of the blast. If there are switcheroos being pulled off at this point in the story, all kinds of things might happen during the "9 year coma" period. Maybe that was the time the medic needed to be fully conditioned into thinking he's Big Boss, maybe he had multiple head surgeries (and even a recent one, technology improves over 9 years) so he still has a bandage. I mean, you can imagine all kinds of scenarios for both him and Ishmael having bandages, from being an acid trip to face offs or just stupidly hiding their faces so as not to reveal them to the player.
Another thing about the waking up sequence and the supposed attack at the hospital, for all we know, it might all be Punished Snake's hallucination, even the attack, the soldiers, not just the outlandish unicorns and whales. It just might be a stressful episode since the last thing he remembers are soldiers, betrayal and shit blowing up directly into his face. Also, if Ishmael is not imaginary, he might be injecting him with something that induces these visions even more.
That's why I like to think we might be playing as Solidus, since, for all intents and purposes, he IS Big Boss, a perfect clone. Perhaps the only thing Cipher didn't manage to fully replicate is his mind, hence the Phantom Pain swticheroo.
And by the end of MGSV, with all the lost limbs, voices, memories and comrades, the ultimate phantom pain ends up being Big Boss' loss of identity, as we see him become someone else or at least loose himself, disappear (following his actions but maybe even literally or physically). Although, this might happen anyway, without clones and outlandish theories.
Man, laughed my ass off at that. It's actually such a tiny, simple detail that it might go either way. I love that kind of thing.
At this point I have no fucking idea. I really hope they won't fuck up this great character but it kinda looks like they're on the right path of doing just that.
Sure, but they might still have some small hints at the actual plot.
All i'm saying is that mgs 1970's tech is a lot more advanced than anything seen on future metal gears, and it's jarring. Kojima doesn't seem to think things thoroughly. Granin designed it, another retcon against MG1 and MG2. Huey managed to use these plans to make ZEKE, but he is better then Rex, despite using older technology than his 2005 counterpart. I know Rex's main function was to launch nukes, but it's still jarring to me that everything was more hi-tech in the 70's. It's like kojima doesn't give a fuck
I was talking about all the technology MSF developed during PW. You said BB doesn't have access to it during TPP because MSF base was destroyed and they lost it. That makes sense, but I was referring to GZ. MSF is still kicking, he has all that technology at his disposal, why doesn't BB use it on that mission? People say soliton radar in PW isn't canon, but iDroid is, despite the fact that is technologically more advanced (and why I believe it might be a simulation - weird theory, but who knows).
We can either believe that soliton radar in PW is canon and idroid is a branch of that tech, or we can decide it isn't, thus rendering it out of place, especially considering the short span of time between PW and GZ.
Either intended or not, Kojima doesn't care too much for continuity/common sense and that is something that has always bugged me. I remember people arguing the same shit in MGS4, when they saw the trailer with "young snake" and the statues. People were assuming all kinds of things:
- there's a time lapse somewhere down the line, we start as young snake then, XX years later we play as old snake
- there were two snakes, one is a new, fourth clone
- maybe the mustache guy is big boss (never mind he had his right eye but that didn't stop some people )
And in the end it was just a funny demonstration of octo face camo. But those were fun speculations.
Hayter-gate aside, I still love the man and his games, but it's he's not super clear when demonstrating his future games and that gives room for all the wild theories.
This is getting a bit off topic, sorry for that
KittenMaster
Member
The iDroid is more useful than the soliton radar for scouting (being able to watch the movement of dozens of people on a large map vs. a tiny surrounding), so even if it was canon Big Boss wouldn't have too much reason to choose it over the iDroid.
Yes, it is jarring, but not completely unexplainable. Keep in mind that while ZEKE may not have been destroyed by the attack on Mother Base, it will most likely be recovered by Cipher and with it their own AI components and technology (and thus only they will have the AI technology featured in Peace Walker, which makes sense considering what they eventually accomplish with the Patriots AI and Arsenal Gear).
The TX-55 was a prototype and an incomplete Metal Gear, so it was likely by that point Outer Heaven was trying to re-develop the technology they lost but only started to succeed at Zanzibar with a Metal Gear they actually did complete, but weren't able to replicate the AI technology exclusive to the Patriots.
Oh, I'm sorry! I misunderstood what you said, I need some sleep. Yeah, I don't assume the side ops as canon neither.
That makes a lot more sense now, I hadn't really thought of that. It would be a pretty convincing explanation but I'm afraid Kojima will retcon everything and come up with a worse explanation :/
At least with Metal Gear ZEKE they inform us they haven't got the stability under control and to have a human pilot it the person has to be submerged in water in order to not be shaken to death, which makes REX more advanced already.
The AI robots in Peace Walker don't really seem all that out of place, aside from maybe Chrysalis I suppose, considering how powerful AI's become later on. So it makes sense that in this universe AI tech is advanced at that time than it would be normally.
The AI robots in Peace Walker don't really seem all that out of place, aside from maybe Chrysalis I suppose, considering how powerful AI's become later on. So it makes sense that in this universe AI tech is advanced at that time than it would be normally.
Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but REX is the ultimate weapon that you own by destroying a small unprotected plate on the side, after that the cockpit opens and you easily dispose of the pilot. Seems like both have their flaws, I just consider Rex to have the worst one. Zeke is faster, more powerful and has those crazy jumps like gekkos.
KittenMaster
Member
A REX took down Ray, a Metal Gear designed specifically to out-maneuver and destroy REX, so you might be selling REX a bit short there despite being a very ground-based mech.
KittenMaster
Member
Was about to edit my post to add this. REX's biggest weakness has more to do with Otacon's sentimentality than dated tech.
It's true, it did, but it was predetermined by the developer and let's not ignore the fact that it's the common "underdog wins in the end" trope. Same thing happened in mgs1, snake couldn't have beaten liquid since he was the inferior one, old snake couldn't have survived the microwave room, cleared those enemies (with some help sure) and then proceed into kicking ocelot's ass, whose cqc skills almost rivaled BB's (as per mgs3 ending). It's a trope..
Snake would have defeated Liquid's Ray with a gekko, if the developer intended the player to do so for story purposes..
I was just talking mechanically. That flaw was added by Otacon on purpose, yes, but it is a flaw nonetheless. A fatal one that would render the entire mech useless, cause at that point he would become "blind" and the pilot would be totally open for attack. Same doesn't happen with Ray or Zeke.
I'm really not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm just trying to separate two different things here: what we learn from the info the game gives us vs. the exceptions the developer is willing to make in order to further a storyline. Mgs is full of events that snake normally would never be able to surpass (liquid even tells him at one point that he only got so far in shadow moses because they were using him from the start).
KittenMaster
Member
Boss fights are also determined by the developer, and if it weren't for the fact that they were designing a boss fight, ZEKE would not have the ability to jump around like it could, but since they wanted ti give it abilities that serve the battle that they designed, it does.
My point is that REX in MGS4 is portrayed as more mobile than it was in MGS1 (while still being a fairly ground based unit, granted but can still traverse quickly), and Peace Walker was a game made afterward so it's possible the gap between performance is not as big as we think.
Which has nothing to do with the state of technology, Otacon deliberately went against how well armored REX could have been and instead purposefully gave it a crippling weakness where otherwise it would be just as well armored, if not moreso than Peace Walker.
At the same time, he also added unauthorized combat capabilities to REX' movement patterns, which shows that there are things they could have potentially done with REX that they simply didn't do.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
You know, I could kinda see where Big Boss was going in MGS3 (the whole theme of which side you were on is dictated by the times is a dead giveaway).
The real character arc I'm interested in is Zero's; how did he change from the slightly bumbling CO in MGS3 into a megalomaniac despot hell bent on imposing his version of the Boss' Will on the world? Does anyone think we'll get to see that?
The real character arc I'm interested in is Zero's; how did he change from the slightly bumbling CO in MGS3 into a megalomaniac despot hell bent on imposing his version of the Boss' Will on the world? Does anyone think we'll get to see that?
But taking Portable Ops as non-canon I think Zero could certainly make a believable heel turn, especially considering his promise to Sokolov, and Big Boss and himself bearing witness to some conspiracy level shit that resulted in the death of The Boss, ultimately, for some cash.
There is a part of Portable Ops however that makes little sense in the story but was probably inserted to contextualize MGS4 somewhat. Ocelot steals the Legacy from the DCI (or something like that) for the "tactician with the same code name as Null" (Zero). Zero is locked up at that point, and Ocelot refers to Null, shit is screwy probably because that's the only canon part of the game.
I can somewhat believe him stealing the money to spite the superiors who betrayed him. I don't, however, get why the Boss' death meant so much to him. Hopefully the explain that.
To be honest I found Zero's change to be completely believable. In real life, I've know people very close to me that have had DRASTIC changes in their personalities thanks to money and power.
I used to have a friend who was kind of a nerd. He was a good natured, goofy guy who loved his girlfriend more than anything in the world. He was a very nice person. Until he got a fantastic, and extremely well-paid job. After that he became a total douche. He began cheating on his girlfriend and treating his friends like crap. He began getting a bunch of luxury items and eventually retreated from his old friendships. I decided to cut off all contact with him, but eventually I found out that he got more and more rich by backstabbing and fooling people.
Sounds familiar? Since I know things like that happen in real life, accepting Zero's transformation in a fictional setting was very easy for me. It doesn't matter how nice a person seems to be, give them money and overwhelming power over other people, and you will know their true colors.
Now, it happened to a friend, and it happened to some other people I know. Now let's put that in a fictional setting and give those people a HUGE fortune (The Philosopher's Legacy). Zero's transformation from a goofy, James Bond-loving guy into a megalomaniac with a love for manipulation does not seem as crazy.
Rogue Agent
Banned
Regardless of how well Zero is explored later on, I prefer the CIA and/or other American elements simply using the Legacy to become the Patriots. Snake would have a lot of hatred for them, even before the LET project. That CIA thing - I think I read that in a blog post, summarisingMGS3's dream theory.
KittenMaster
Member
Fixed, but I don't entirely agree. He would have had to have a desire to take the Legacy to begin with, not just randomly end up with it and be corrupted it.
Honestly it's probably better if they didn't explain, lest we end up with more unsatisfying MGS4 style answers and it keeps him a mystery.
Unsatisfying answers? Metal Gear Solid 4 wrapped everything up with pretty satisfying answers. I don't know how else they could've done that.
The Cartographer
Member
Power.
I have to agree. Though some answers felt hamfisted, they did the best they could with what they had.
Yeah, I mean, the answers were crazy, and I believe the only thing I didn't like were the HUGE info dumps by EVA and Big Boss... But when I think about it, which other way could they explain all the insanity in the series? Personally, I'm not in the group that thinks "Everything should've been left without explanation". I would have hated if the series ended up in mystery.
Insane questions demand insane explanations. I was pretty satisfied =)
KittenMaster
Member
Usually by moving onto a new game, where they can show things developing rather than having to explain it all at once. I see Peace Walker as a better introduction to the Patriots AI than the speech at the end of MGS4, for example, and other developments they threw in MGS4 can be presented in a meaningful and dramatic manner.
EDIT: This is not to say not all developments in MGS4 are inappropriate (the current Patriots being the AIs themselves works well and gives a good answer to who the Patriots are and who is running the show.)
For Zero though, he should definitely be kept as a mystery throughout Big Boss' career because:
- MGS4 already gave us the big reveal
- The Patriots' enigma while carring overwhelming influence is such a strong theme throughout the series, and that would go along with that
- Sometimes villains are just more menacing never shown
The Cartographer
Member
I don't know but you can have this.
I will kindlly translate that.
"They played us like a damn Fiddle!"
(Im joking I actually have no clue but cmon guys, there is only one truth to this).
Tribes of Trusty
Member
I found the really advanced technology in Peace Walker and Ground Zeroes jarring at first until I remembered there was actually a reason for this answered in MGS4 and Rising : the Patriots were censoring and keeping to themselves all kinds of technology, as the world of MGS is more advanced than ours. That would explain why BB can have basically a smartphone in Ground Zeroes (1974) and why we have in other MGS games fully functional (borderline magical) nanomachine technology (2005 to 2014), Van Der Walls gloves that allow you to stick to walls (2009 ?), ultra regeneration, DNA-targeting viruses, HF blades and cyborgs.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Nah the MGS timeline is just more technologically advanced in general even before the Patriots.
How amazing would it be if Big Boss hands The Boss' bandanna to a mercenary contact of Kaz's and former Diamond Dogs recruit, George "Kessler"
who's hanging out with a bandanna-less
Gray Fox
Doesn't snake just let it fly away at the end of peace walker.
Pyccko
Member
I'm a bit late to this, but man. MAN. That rape tape, guys. Jesus. I could have done without the thrusting/whimpering noises at the beginning of that one segment. Shit's stuck in my head. I mean CHRIST. I didn't really get any like "Oh Skullface you jerk, I'm gonna kill you so good in TPP"' feelings out of it, I just got a stomach ache.
If this is what Kojima thinks will "mature the medium," I gotta say, I think I'd rather go back to the days of Johnny Sasaki.
If this is what Kojima thinks will "mature the medium," I gotta say, I think I'd rather go back to the days of Johnny Sasaki.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Story discussion, mainly on themes and execution, from the guy behind the Critical Close-up videos on the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OABF4AsUec
No speculation, just good analysis as usual. Sorry if this has been posted already, I just saw it for the first time.
Also, about the idea that we're not actually playing as Big Boss, because this is a simulation or he has a body double or whatever, keep in mind that the entire purpose of these games, storywise, is to show Big Boss' downfall. This speculation has gotten way out of hand.
No speculation, just good analysis as usual. Sorry if this has been posted already, I just saw it for the first time.
Also, about the idea that we're not actually playing as Big Boss, because this is a simulation or he has a body double or whatever, keep in mind that the entire purpose of these games, storywise, is to show Big Boss' downfall. This speculation has gotten way out of hand.
Alot of it has to do with the moby dick idea the downfall can be told from another person like in MGS2 makes snake much more of a ideal character due to seeing him from another perspective which is raiden's.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Disagree with him showing no sympathy for Snake because he is not a good guy, has a private army and a nuke. He never asked for any of it, and only did it because he thought Boss was still alive. He didn't even want the nuke but it was recovered from Peace Walker crash and was put into ZEKE to which he didn't agree with either. I think it was also Kaz that fucked up too, and Huey got all dumb by the end allowing for the ambush to happen which Snake didn't want to happen either.
All in all, people around him have made ridiculous decisions to his very accurate foreshadowing to all the events, and others ignoring his orders and going against it.
Snake is cleaning up over other's mess. I'm surprised he is still on this gig and didn't say "Fuck off" when Boss died in the first place. The only awkward part of Ground Zeroes is knowing everyone thinks of him as a joke and yet he still follows through this rescue mission that did more harm than good.
Question for all: Is Kaz a traitor? Was that detailed in any way in Peace Walker? If so, please explain so I can understand his actions during Peace Walker and during Ground Zeroes.
SupaDupaDiva
Banned
there was a tape in PW where we find out that it is Kaz who gave BIg Bosses DNA to Zero or at least he helped with the les enfant terrible project, but he says that it was nothing more than business.I personally think Kaz wanted insurance too in case smth happens to Big Boss he would have another soldier to lead his MSF (may be thats why hes is so close with Solid Snake).
Isn't it kinda pseudo confirmed by GZ tapes that Huey is the traitor? He insisted on inspection of Mother base and Skull face mentions some scientist inside MSF who is helping them.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
That doesn't really make much sense. If you're playing Fake Snake, where is the real one for us to see the downfall of...? Wouldn't be much of a view if he's only in the background.
Could be a bluff/misinformation. Dr Strangelove is a scientist too.
I think he said something like "the scientist is our way in", which could just mean that because Huey was eager to pass the inspection they fooled him, doesn't mean he knowingly helped them. I think it's more likely he was tricked like everybody else.
Huey was trying to help. He was probably tricked by Stangelove who coincidentally left before the attack happened.
Guys, we've seen Skull Face before. He's a literal parasite. He's the reason Solid Snake still has one final mission. He's
http://i.imgur.com/y5Lp058.jpg
Edit: sorry messed up the link.
John Doe.
http://i.imgur.com/y5Lp058.jpg
Edit: sorry messed up the link.
So... Skull Face becomes an AI....?