"Mid-tier" is alive and well on the PC.
In fact, some of the so-called "indie" titles could easily be considered mid-tier ones.
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Epic: About 1/3rd as many AAA games in dev this gen, but each with 3 times the budget
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
"Mid-tier" is alive and well on the PC.
In fact, some of the so-called "indie" titles could easily be considered mid-tier ones.
Don't worry, there are SO MANY GAMES coming this year, including this huge list of games that was announced a year ago at e3!
Personally I kind of view it as a shifting view of what mid-tier is.
I think the ceiling on indie games is rising pretty notably, but the floor on AAA games is too.
Things like Vanquish or Bayonetta feel out of reach for indie games currently, but they don't really seem to fit with Assassin's Creed 4 or GTA V in scope.
Even using a more similar genre, Saints Row 4 feels like a total mid-tier title relative to the two games I just listed, despite it likely being a $20+ million production.
Nightengale
Member
The leap from Gameloft quality to ND/Epic quality though is the difference of adding an extra headcount of at least 150 dev and an extra 12 months of dev time though...
1st Course
Member
Here is a slide from a Sega financial report pointing to this trend too
There was a similar slide from Konami too but I can't find it atm.
illmatic22
Banned
This is the generation, where indies are going fo fill in the gaps between Big AAA releases. Sony recognized this and they have done a great job gathering titles for their platform.
I don't care if a game is made by an indie developer, and doesn't have a massive budget, so long as the game is fun. And so I've had plenty to play already this gen. Keep it coming, indies!
I don't care if a game is made by an indie developer, and doesn't have a massive budget, so long as the game is fun. And so I've had plenty to play already this gen. Keep it coming, indies!
KojiKnight
Member
Came to post this... Everyone saying before the gen changed "But it'll be easier to program for so it'll be cheaper to make! They already make hi-res assets and then shrink them down!"
Glad I was in the wagon that knew better.
A and AA tiers don't exist and haven't for a long time. Anything that's below AAA tier is B tier. AAA just sounds a lot more exciting than A or (Japanese favorite term for above A) S.
Right, that's why we see the mid-tier disappearing.
If you still need 40 people to do a mid-tier game justice and can only employ 10-12, you're not going to do a project of that scope.
SmashN'Grab
Member
It'll be a very interesting E3 this year if it turns out that there's only 2-3 big games coming out each on the PS4/Xbox One and lots of smaller indie games bridging the gaps for the remainder of the year.
I don't have much technical background but from an economic view it's probably just the law of diminishing marginal returns again. Marginal returns decreasing while marginal costs are increasing.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Sadly both those games had significant trouble in funding, sequels.
Cave Johnson
Member
MightyHedgehog
Member
A single player $60 FPS looking like it does, featuring as much cinematic polish as it does, seems much closer to AAA than mid-tier. Pretty sure that Bethsoft has their sights set on it being the start of a new franchise for this gen.
entremet
Member
I just wonder where are the posters who said it will be fine and costs shouldn't be rising with next gen?
There's a reason why Sony and MS are doubling down on Indies now.
Who's making them? A lot of those developers from those days are dead, bought by bigger companies and under a leash, or releasing much less games. Moreover, while I like indies, the volume is not as high as people may think. Making games is a very resource intensive activity.
There's a reason why Sony and MS are doubling down on Indies now.
Who's making them? A lot of those developers from those days are dead, bought by bigger companies and under a leash, or releasing much less games. Moreover, while I like indies, the volume is not as high as people may think. Making games is a very resource intensive activity.
ActStriker
Member
uh, what?
don't people complain about things on consoles being a buggy mess or the glitches here and there?
Wolfenstein I would consider the old definition of AAA.
Whether we want to still call it AAA and call things like Battlefield 4 AAAA, or is we want to call Battlefield 4 AAA and Wolfenstein AA is largely a matter of semantics.
The crux of the issue is that what was once the top of the pile production value wise and was already pretty expensive is now in at least the second tier of games.
Now, this has been happening every generation, but we've hit the point where it really sticks out much more than it ever did before due to how much money was already involved.
geordiemp
Member
I agree, even with just Ps4 I have yet to start infamous and tomb raider...
I always have a crazy backlog and some games I buy I don't even start last gen (Bioshock infinite springs to mind).
I think we need better AAA games but not as many, and hopefully the devs can get decent volume (not everybody enjoys Rockstar and COD sales)...
Even next month we have Watchdogs and I am interested in Spriderman (that's 2) and month after we have TLOU, Wolfstein etc..
So there is more than enough..add some indies and PSN games and all is good...
Sony seems to have seen this future already. One of the reasons PC gaming is great is because it supports games of all types.
If you look at the steam top 30 games are selling at a bunch of different price points. I hope console gamers become more receptive to the 15 to 40 dollar game. Those tend to be the best ones available at the moment. They may not have the production values of AAA gaming but they are typically packed with content and bring more interesting concepts.
I'm more than fine with less AAA games.
If you look at the steam top 30 games are selling at a bunch of different price points. I hope console gamers become more receptive to the 15 to 40 dollar game. Those tend to be the best ones available at the moment. They may not have the production values of AAA gaming but they are typically packed with content and bring more interesting concepts.
I'm more than fine with less AAA games.
I think indie games are growing in scope enough that they effectively are mid tier titles so I don't see this as a problem.
Wolfgang Jr
Banned
3x the amount of chest-high walls I hope!
Yes, hence the "vanishing mid-tier" problem we've had.
We were pretty much there for God of War Ascension: http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/...war-ascension-cost-40--60-million-to-develop/
God of War 3 was $44 million and I get the impression Ascension was a bit more based on the statement: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/god-of-war-iii-budget-is-USD44-million
Principate
Saint Titanfall
That's the point, for the most part they aren't which is why certain examples stick out. e.g Skyrim and BF4 and so people complain a lot.
On the whole AAA games are fairly polished
demosthenes
Member
I understand that, but triple? A game that cost $10 million will now cost $30 million?
A game that cost $20 million will now cost $60 million?
How? Costs increase, yes. What is turning a 20 million game to be 60 million now? What changed versus 6 years ago. Certainly salaries didn't go up that much.
Appollowexx
Member
While AAA titles can be phenomenal (when well executed) for me as a console only gamer for the most part it's been refreshing and exciting to have more creative, artistic, smaller experiences via the indie scene launching on consoles.
If less big budget blockbusters and more indie titles on consoles is the best way to keep the industry healthy then i'm all for it. It's kind of like the movie scene. While a big summer action movie or comedy has it's place, it's the independent films and foreign movie scene that keep things fresh and I think that applies to games these days too.
If less big budget blockbusters and more indie titles on consoles is the best way to keep the industry healthy then i'm all for it. It's kind of like the movie scene. While a big summer action movie or comedy has it's place, it's the independent films and foreign movie scene that keep things fresh and I think that applies to games these days too.
Indies are the secret weapon. I recently had a chance to play Johan Sebastian's Joust and I believe it could easily catch on (provided you have space to play it).
No Mans Sky is still one of the most impressive looking games to me out of all the titles currently announced.
I imagine Indies as something like this
No Mans Sky is still one of the most impressive looking games to me out of all the titles currently announced.
I imagine Indies as something like this
I am assuming content creation.
KojiKnight
Member
Basically, the fact that the PS360 hardware was weak is what was keeping the price down. People don't want PS360 games at 1080p, they want that next gen leap. That means open, larger worlds. Those worlds need to be populated... not just by the same 10 models with clothes swaps. Their buildings need to be fleshed out. Neighborhoods constructed. Etc etc.
All of that costs a ton to make, and requires more and more artists/modelers/motion capture/etc. Then couple that added expense with the fact that you have to SELL more to make up for it. How do you do that? Larger advertising budgets. Several million dollar budget for next gen marketing is pretty much a guarantee for AAA titles going forward. Expect to be beaten to death by them.
So yes, it's VERY easy to believe that budgets will triple for the top tier quality game.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Compared to the output on PCs, console games are extremely polished. My point was that the audience on PC is far more forgiving because the output there is more buggy, more unpolished than the average output of traditional consoles. The lines started to blur last gen because so many console games were ported to PCs and many formerly PC exclusives became a bit console-oriented, so there's plenty of opportunity for them to expose console gamers to buggy PC stuff. Console gamers may complain just as much as any other, but they're used to a far higher level of refinement just down to the fact that patching, until this generation now, was far more difficult and costly and because targeting a fixed spec box is far more conducive to producing optimized software.
As an example, Dragon Age 2 was a peak team of about 200 with a 12-15 month development cycle whereas Dragon Age 3 seems to have a peak team size of over 400 and has had a 3.5 year development cycle.
We're taking the same number of staff that used to be one three times as many games and putting them on one third the number of titles instead, with each of those titles being astronomically large.
Dr. Buni
Member
I don't see how that is a bad thing. If the market shrinking means we might get less game, but with better quality, then that is a perfect scenario to me.
The funny thing is I dont think we will be getting better quality.. I mean have we so far??
Not only are there less games and bigger budgets but I feel like theres more pressure from investors to get games out before they are ready.
I don't think it's about playing all the games that come out in a year. I think it's more about having a wider choice of what's out there to play. Less games, means less choice.
Sectorseven
Member
Just outsource more development to China. That seems to work for every other industry with rising costs.
KungFucius
King Snowflake
Mid tier games should have mid tier pricing. Indie $10-20 depending on depth; Mid tier games $40-50; AAA $60.
They just need to figure out the marketing so consumers understand that mid tier games are full games they just don't cost a ton to develop. Right now the few mid tier games that make it out are magically expected to compete with the GTAs and Skyrims because there is no way to really distinguish them @ retail.
I was thinking about this recently. I am not sure about their budgets, but to me Nintendo games seem like highly polished mid tier games. They don't craft lavish set pieces or hire voice actors, they just make meaty games built around simple concepts. The main source of cost of a Nintendo game is development time, not the size of the project.
gundamkyoukai
Member
What is mid tier in this day and age .
A lot of games we call mid tier are are now indies , imo tech is what kill the mid tier market .
Either way the game industry always wanted to become like Hollywood at that is what is happening .
AHA-Lambda
Member
Eh, no.
sixteen-bit
Member
crash incoming?
metalslimer
Member
On a much smaller userbase. The death of the mid tier game will come back to bite this industry in the ass.
That along with the terrible pricing model.
kerotan_eater
Banned
There are plenty of indie games that really can be considered mid tier sized by now. A lot of them have gained success which has truly enabled them to really make big games as has been said.
This I prefer because at least these new mid tier Indies aren't beholden to publishers like during up until the last gen.
It'll make for more creative and higher quality games.
This I prefer because at least these new mid tier Indies aren't beholden to publishers like during up until the last gen.
It'll make for more creative and higher quality games.
AHA-Lambda
Member
What the hell?!
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I was gonna ask if this means one solid flop could ruin a studio, but I think that's been happening for a while already.
So will the majority of people jump on every AAA title released out of starvation making this approach successful? I wonder if months of drought for predominantly AAA consumers will lead them to abandon consoles, or lead them to actually embracing indies as the new mid-tier.
So will the majority of people jump on every AAA title released out of starvation making this approach successful? I wonder if months of drought for predominantly AAA consumers will lead them to abandon consoles, or lead them to actually embracing indies as the new mid-tier.