Support NeoGAF

[H2Yo]

I'm unsure of the endgame for the OP. Lately, there seems to be people stirring up shit for no valid reason and there should be a punishment for inciting this faux-outrage.

The more people jump up and down and see things that aren't there, the more it takes away from the real issues. In a way it's like a game of boy who cried wolf.

Other people that have done this IMO are Patricia Hernandez from Kotaku, trying to say that Ubisoft were homophobic for Spider having a headband that translated to Lover of Man.

Another was Kat Bailey for claiming that Dracula killing a man and then feeding on his wife in Lords of Shadow 2 was actually rape.

It really boggles my mind, I don't know if it's a cultural thing but people need to stop this misdirected pitchforking and focus on what actually matters.

 

[scoobidoo112]

 

[Brutalitops]

Some stereotypes of gay men are: Fashionable / Style (check), limp wrist (check), and the color pink (check), which at least in America, is often considered an effeminate color.

My issue is if this character is gay, thus far he is portrayed as a gay stereotype in this piece of art, and that alone is problematic. Let alone if he is the whole "gay people are bad guys or punchlines" trope.

So where am I being a hypocrite or judgemental here?

You know people with stereotypical gay traits exist right? There's nothing wrong with portraying it.

Not that we even know he does. It's a photo

 

[Deadbeat]

What the hell is going on with the internet today?

 

[Nokagi]

Hmm a gay racist as the villain. Well that would be something new at least. But don't worry OP I really don't think Ubisoft has the balls to attempt that one.

 

[d0c_zaius]

Ding ding...we have a winner

no we don't. it's giving them free press and generating interest before a big show.

games still were made after RE5 drama happened.

OP can you at this to your excellent first post please

 

[KillerIsJed]

The thing is, these stereotypes do exist.
There are people who fit in these categories.

So, you are basically saying that you don't like these people, that they don't have the right to be represented in a game.
You are discriminating against them?

Stereotypes, whether positive or negative are bad in general. Are some gay guys well dressed, into fashion, and "effeminate" acting? Sure. Are they all? No. But the big problem is when you take nearly every part of a stereotype for a gay man and make a character out of it.

Well you're the one who drew the conclusion that the character on the cover is gay based on outdated and judgemental stereotypes without any kind of further information, so how could I possibly come to that conclusion?

I didn't realize I had to get up to date with new and "non-judgemental stereotypes" before I say that something appears to be a potential stereotype.

 

[Uthred]

Some stereotypes of gay men are: Fashionable / Style (check), limp wrist (check), and the color pink (check), which at least in America, is often considered an effeminate color.

You keep talking about these limp wrists but unless he has a phantom third wrist his left wrist is tensed as his hand is against his chin and his right wrist is in a straight line as his hand is on the other guys head.

 

[Crayons]

plot twist what if the pink suit guy isn't gay but his soldier is and pink suit guy is just being a bro by fulfilling the soldier's domination fetish

 

[hohoXD123]

I'm unsure of the endgame for the OP. Lately, there seems to be people stirring up shit for no valid reason and there should be a punishment for inciting this faux-outrage.

The more people jump up and down and see things that aren't there, the more it takes away from the real issues. In a way it's like a game of boy who cried wolf.

Other people that have done this IMO are Patricia Hernandez from Kotaku, trying to say that Ubisoft were homophobic for Spider having a headband that translated to Lover of Man.

Another was Kat Bailey for claiming that Dracula killing a man and then feeding on his wife in Lords of Shadow 2 was actually rape.

It really boggled my mind, I don't know if it's a cultural thing but people need to stop this misdirected pitchforking and focus on what actually matters.

It's obvious.

 

[ShadyJ]

Is Op upset that in his mind the character is gay?

 

[leakey]

I wish 50 Cent would release another game. It would be amazing to see what the reaction to something like Bulletproof would be in today's social climate.

If they made a sequel to this I would be so happy.

 

[Apocryphon]

Doesn't look especially white and doesn't look gay.

 

[Plywood]

Is it better now?

I'll do you one further:

 

[kevin1025]

To me, it doesn't matter about race or sexual orientation, as long as they are great characters backing up a cool story, and the game is fun, I don't see why it should matter. If the colors of their skin were reversed there would be articles about how Ubisoft is being controversial. It's madness.

 

[RonanN1]

Lighten up people.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Stereotypes can't apply because???

Gay people can't be villians? Do you even understand what your typing? So by that logic every action movie/video game to date with straight villans was an attack on straight people saying they're all bad people?

Right on man! I loved Transformers 3 when the black guy with the rocket launcher came on screen, took one look at the robots, and said 'aw hell naw'. Sterotyping is allllllll right. (If it isn't towards me right?)
Edit: /Sarcasm just to be safe.

 

[Mushroomer25]

Jesus Christ, people just can't wait to get offended over shit like this. All we have - literally ALL WE KNOW ABOUT THIS GAME - is the boxart. One out-of-context image. Do we know if this man is the protagonist? The villain? If he's a commentary on colonialism or an endorsement of it? NO.

But because it's fun to be a victim on the internet, and seem like the most in-touch social commentator of the hour - people jump to baseless assumptions more offensive than anything the game could contain.

And that's not to say they're forbidden from critiquing the game on a social level. I'd just prefer they wait until they have something to critique that is actually representative of the final product.

 

[MackAttack]

There are gay dudes that dress like that. If you live in a major coastal city, you probably saw a few fellows like that this week. Why can't they have one in their game?

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Some stereotypes of gay men are: Fashionable / Style (check), limp wrist (check), and the color pink (check), which at least in America, is often considered an effeminate color.

My issue is if this character is gay, thus far he is portrayed as a gay stereotype in this piece of art, and that alone is problematic. Let alone if he is the whole "gay people are bad guys or punchlines" trope.

So where am I being a hypocrite or judgemental here?

1. He doesn't look like he's dressed fashionably, he actually looks quite gaudy. In other words he looks like a wealthy gangster trying to go for a "rockstar" look. Probably a drug dealer.

2. Limp wrist? You are really reaching with that one. He is sitting with a cocky expression and his hand under his chin is part of the body language.

3. The color pink is an effeminate color, but so is purple and you see a lot of stereotypical pimps in bright purple outfits. If anything this color could also be part of his heterosexual persona, ie confident in his sexuality therefore comfortable to wear pink.

 

[rdrr gnr]

As a gay man, I'd like to think I know a bit about homosexuality too—stereotypes et al. I see nothing here implying the character is gay. I'd go with Russian/eastern European mobster over gay by (stereotypical) looks alone. Now if the character begins talking with a lisp and prancing around flamboyantly, then I'll get out my (bedazzled) pitchfork, but in the meantime I find your analysis more offensive than the allegedly gay antagonist.

But what if he is flamboyantly gay with a lisp? Why is the line drawn there?

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

Nope, you lost me. For future reference:

1) Don't tell a group of people you don't belong to how to act or how they should be doing things

2) "If all you want is equal rights, then Shut it already !" is unabashedly terrible

Im not trying to win anything, just expressing my opinion.

Feeling offended, and opening a thread on it, about how the character is (even though we are only based on the image...one single image) is being stereotypical already, and therefore Its hypocritical.

Nowadays it feels like games/movies are walking on thin ice when designing a character, and that is so so sad, cuz we are losing so many creative characters because everyone gets offended by something.

Should I be offended by how straight men are portrayed in jersey shore ?! I'd say its the equivalent.

 

[ShadyJ]

I'll do you one further:

 

[Marc]

Joker secretly loves Batman, we all know it.

 

[Slixshot]

Ubisoft -- a multi million dollar corporation, who has studios all over the world employing people of all races and genders -- is really trying to send a message. They want their company in the spotlight for a potentially offensive character. Of course! /s

We know nothing about the game other than the cover art. Why don't you wait for the game to come out or even a trailer before throwing your hands in the air. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

People just need to relax and play games for what they are: Games. Fiction.

 

[Azuran]

Well, there has to be a reason why Wario and him are always seen together. Isn't that right OP?

 

[Brutalitops]

Right on man! I loved Transformers 3 when the black guy with the rocket launcher came on screen, took one look at the robots, and said 'aw hell naw'. Sterotyping is allllllll right. (If it isn't towards me right?)
Edit: /Sarcasm just to be safe.

That was actually one of the only good scenes from Transformers 3

Well shit, looks like I'm a racist!

 

[Neuromancer]

Limp wrist? It looks to me like he's just holding his hand a certain way. Like he's thinking pensively.

 

[Lijik]

I can understand being upset at a gay antagonist in a AAA game the week after a ubisoft writer made those statements about how it will be a while before a gay protagonist in a AAA game. "You cant be the hero, but here! You can be the villain, isnt that good enough for you?" is kind of whack.

But at the same time, the only thing we really know about the villain is he's a self appointed king. This thread strikes a little bit jumping the gun and i feel like a lot of what the OP feels evokes homosexuality is supposed to be evoking a modern incarnation of royalty. I dont think theres enough to really discuss here on that end until we know for sure.

 

[saunderez]

I'm unsure of the endgame for the OP. Lately, there seems to be people stirring up shit for no valid reason and there should be a punishment for inciting this faux-outrage.

The more people jump up and down and see things that aren't there, the more it takes away from the real issues. In a way it's like a game of boy who cried wolf.

Other people that have done this IMO are Patricia Hernandez from Kotaku, trying to say that Ubisoft were homophobic for Spider having a headband that translated to Lover of Man.

Another was Kat Bailey for claiming that Dracula killing a man and then feeding on his wife in Lords of Shadow 2 was actually rape.

It really boggles my mind, I don't know if it's a cultural thing but people need to stop this misdirected pitchforking and focus on what actually matters.

Agreed. Faux outrage causes legit outrage to be overlooked. You're not doing anything to advance your cause by jumping up and down over perceived injustices, how about focusing on actual proven injustices and taking it from there.

 

[Epcott]

Shhhhhit this makes me RAGE!

Fuck yooooooo UBI, you've just lost a fan and customer.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Im not trying to win anything, just expressing my opinion.

Feeling offended, and opening a thread on it, about how the character is (even though we are only based on the image...one single image) is being stereotypical already, and therefore Its hypocritical.

Nowadays it feels like games/movies are walking on thin ice when designing a character, and that is so so sad, cuz we are losing so many creative characters because everyone gets offended by something.

Should I be offended by how straight men are portrayed in jersey shore ?! I'd say its the equivalent.

Right, cause that isn't false equivalnce or anything right?

 

[ryuken-d]

now that is purple. haha so great, perfect.

 

[DarkFlow]

Joker secretly loves Batman, we all know it.

I always knew Joker had the hots for bats.

 

[Maintenance]

I'll do you one further:

He sure will do it in style.

 

[Astarte]

Oh good lord, there's a whole lotta OUTRAGE here today...over boxart.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

As a great man once said, 'Just because you're offended, that doesn't make you right.'

Not to pick on you personally here, because I agree in this instance that the umbrage being taken is misbegotten; the inverse of this statement is also true. If something offends one person or peoples but not another, the latter aren't automatically correct that said thing is inoffensive.

Just pointing this out because of the predictable flood of "oh my god, it just seems like everything is offensive these days" posts in the thread. In this case the OP is certainly reaching, but the attitude that any accusations of bigotry are obviously wrong if the impact is only felt by certain people is a dangerous one.

 

[ngower]

But what if he is flamboyantly gay with a lisp? Why is the line drawn there?

Because it's a tired trope that misrepresents gay men as a whole. While effeminate gay men exist (and serve an important role in eradicating prefigured gender norms) they compromise but one archetype of male homosexuality. It would be far more effective (and, arguably, intelligent in terms of adding depth to a character) to deviate from this type of caricature and offer a less obvious concept than the flamboyantly gay super villain.

But let's get back to throwing tomatoes at the OP.

 

[Neuromancer]

If they made a sequel to this I would be so happy.

Yo Fitty hit that ramp! Game of the generation.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Better?

Wait. Now is this offensive because he now looks middle-eastern? shit. I'm not sure how to fix this to make it non-offensive to everyone.:

Is this a Sunni with his hand over a kneeling Shiite?

 

[paolo11]

No. He's got this

Nice!!

 

[MHWilliams]

The game does not exist yet. No member of this forum has played it. This is not criticism because there is no artifact to criticize. There is no context because the argument is inferring from a box art (which are noted for how narrow and lacking nuance they are) the details and actions of a character. This is a game of how offended will I be today.

See, but they release the box art to evoke an emotion in you: desire. It's supposed to give you a feeling of the games they'll show you in the future and push you towards its purpose. Box art as an image is crafted, they aren't just throwing anything out there. This is Uibsoft saying, "this is the best minimum representation of our upcoming product."

Now, anything that can engender positive emotions and can also do the opposite.

Just as you can love this cover, you can decide you dislike it. You have decide it does not resonate with you for reasons. You can even state those reasons, in person, on Twitter, or even in a public forum.

Criticizing an image or trailer related to a game is possible, even if those criticisms may not extend to the final product. The content creator released them. If they wanted to show a different tone, they could just as easily release something different. The image is the complete context until Ubisoft decides to release more.

TL;DR. If you like it, you can dislike it. This extends to teaser images and trailers.

 

[DarkFlow]

Oh good lord, there's a whole lotta OUTRAGE here today...over boxart.

The outrage is pretty limited to one person I think.

 

[weralacroix]

Stereotypes, whether positive or negative are bad in general. Are some gay guys well dressed, into fashion, and "effeminate" acting? Sure. Are they all? No. But the big problem is when you take nearly every part of a stereotype for a gay man and make a character out of it.

So a well dressed, into fashion, and "effeminate" acting gay guy does not have the right to be in a video game?

If this is the only way gay guys are represented, then yes, it could be an issue.
But if it is just some guys that are like this, then there is no problem with it.

All different types of people have the right to be represented in any form of creation.

 

[KillerIsJed]

Stereotypes can't apply because???

Gay people can't be villians? Do you even understand what your typing? So by that logic every action movie/video game to date with straight villans was an attack on straight people saying they're all bad people?

Stereotypes are bad. Period.

Straight people aren't stereotyped in movies and video games like gay people are, plain and simple. They have the privilege of being the majority in media and having plenty of representation. When you (mostly) only show gay people as villains or punchlines or stereotypes, that is problematic.

 

[BitStyle]

Stereotypes, whether positive or negative are bad in general. Are some gay guys well dressed, into fashion, and "effeminate" acting? Sure. Are they all? No. But the big problem is when you take nearly every part of a stereotype for a gay man and make a character out of it.

The problem I find with this statement is that there is no way to currently know if this character is actually gay. At this point, I feel you're merely projecting on to a character that we know little to nothing about, except that he seems to be the antagonist.

On an unrelated note your edit to the OP isn't exactly going to stifle healthy discussion, it just matches up to me with your unwillingness to address dozens of posters who brought counter-arguments to your position.

 

[Clefargle]

I don't get it. If you want more lgbt characters in games as I do then why do you care what alignment they have? There are just as many evil gay people as evil straight people in theory. If this villain is racist, doesn't that just make him more evil? As in, "fuck that bigot! I'm gonna play FC4 and trash his entire crime empire?" I want more realistic characters both gay and straight in games just like you, but I don't get your angle... Sorry

 

[FStop7]

I mean if there's one thing the world needs less of it's flamboyant villains.

Everything should take place in a quiet conference room and follow Robert's Rules of Order.

 

[nateeasy]

This is why we can't have nice things.

:/

I agree with mr.raptor

 

[stufte]

OP, here's the thing.

You're trying to convince people that the developers made him a bad guy *because* he's

Spoiler

maybe

gay. Which is kinda hand-wavy to the max.