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[Coffeeling]

That's... that's almost exactly what Warchiefs do, except power/toughness in the deck don't matter except for search effects (and some grant special/keyword abilities instead of stat increases or have their own abilities). But there are some that do almost exactly what that card does - Undead Warchief and Daru Warchief, in particular.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[warchief]

Uh, it's not at all what Warchiefs do. The Hex card doesn't affect cards in play, tokens in play, cards in your hand. The cards' stats in decks can easily matter - see Wild Pair for example:

It's very different from a Warchief. The Hex card could probably be recreated in MTG by making a sorcery that creates an emblem, but even then the wording would be horrendously clunky, and I'm not even sure if it could be made to work. You'd probably have to rewrite some basic rules definitions to be able to clone the card in Magic.

 

[Shinjica]

It's pretty funny how WOTC has wait until the game was in Closed Beta before sueing CZE.

The mechanics were pretty well know even during the kickstarter campaign.

 

[nynt9]

It's pretty funny how WOTC has wait until the game was in Closed Beta before sueing CZE.

The mechanics were pretty well know even during the kickstarter campaign.

If you actually read the documents you'll realize that they tried non-suing methods before, CZE didn't budge so they had to resort to suing.

 

[Ryuukan]

If you actually read the documents you'll realize that they tried non-suing methods before, CZE didn't budge so they had to resort to suing.

You understand that just means Wizards sent a cease and desist letter demanding they shut down the game completely right

 

[Costia]

You understand that just means Wizards sent a cease and desist letter demanding they shut down the game completely right

Is that insider information or just a guess?
I would assume they asked for licensing fees.
Anyway, Shinjica's complaint was that Hex's devs weren't informed earlier. Which is obviously is not the case even if you are right and WotC only sent cease and desist request.
Your suggestion means that the devs knew there is a problem and decided to ignore it in the hope that Wotc will just forget about it or something instead of going to court.

 

[nynt9]

You understand that just means Wizards sent a cease and desist letter demanding they shut down the game completely right

Well usually a C&D from a large company means "stop now or we sue you for everything you've got" so yeah.

Assuming they actually sent a C&D, that seems to be your speculation.

 

[Sinatar]

On the one hand, Wizards has a real legit case here.

On the other hand I feel bad for people who backed this on Kickstarter, gonna suck when it gets shut down.

 

[Ryuukan]

Well usually a C&D from a large company means "stop now or we sue you for everything you've got" so yeah.

Assuming they actually sent a C&D, that seems to be your speculation.

You got me, they had brunch together

 

[dmcAxle]

On the one hand, Wizards has a real legit case here.

On the other hand I feel bad for people who backed this on Kickstarter, gonna suck when it gets shut down.

if
it gets shut down

This case doesn't seem very clear cut towards either side winning. The only claim by Wizards/Hasbro that isn't bs is the one pertaining to their patent. As many have said the patent is very broad and dozens of card games have breached it. Will it hold up? I assume (I say assume because I am no lawyer and have no insider knowledge) they have never used the patent on WoW TCG because they were afraid of losing it and now that it is gone in a couple months they might as well exercise it.

 

[Coffeeling]

On the one hand, Wizards has a real legit case here.

On the other hand I feel bad for people who backed this on Kickstarter, gonna suck when it gets shut down.

On what grounds? Gameplay cannot be copyrighted, Hex looks different from MTG, and the flavour is utterly different (and pretty cringeworthy at that. Murderous killer rabbits? Seriously?). I mean, grabbing like 90% of MTG mechanically is blatant, but I don't see where they would have an actual case.

http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/

 

[Chariot]

On what grounds? Gameplay cannot be copyrighted, Hex looks different from MTG, and the flavour is utterly different (and pretty cringeworthy at that. Murderous killer rabbits? Seriously?). I mean, grabbing like 90% of MTG mechanically is blatant, but I don't see where they would have an actual case.

http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgj3nZWtOfA

 

[CastorTroy]

Pretty interested in the game, but man, Wizards of the Coast keep painting themselves in this negative light

 

[Brakara]

On what grounds? Gameplay cannot be copyrighted, Hex looks different from MTG, and the flavour is utterly different (and pretty cringeworthy at that. Murderous killer rabbits? Seriously?). I mean, grabbing like 90% of MTG mechanically is blatant, but I don't see where they would have an actual case.

http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/

Did you even read the article you linked to?

I predict that Wizards will win on its patent claims, it has a good shot at winning on copyright claims, and it will lose on its Lanham Act claims.

 

[Proven]

Reading through the thread, what bugs me most about the rip off complaints is that I see Hex as Magic++. It starts from Magic and then attempts to build from it. It's making an effort to be more than a Magic rip off by being bigger mechanically. Beyond the PvE stuff (which expands on things even more), there isn't a large pool of Hex-unique effects and the base mechanical foundation is almost 1:1 (with the main changes being charge effects and threshold) but that already changes the flow of the game. I want to say that it even affects deck building but the majority of my tiny experience with Magic is in draft. And I can only assume that the number of differences from Magic will only grow as more sets are released and new mechanics and effects are added.

The board in general dislikes companies that clone a game and leave it at that. But Cryptozoic has no plans at all to leave things as "a complete rip-off."

 

[nynt9]

and the flavour is utterly different (and pretty cringeworthy at that. Murderous killer rabbits? Seriously?). I mean, grabbing like 90% of MTG mechanically is blatant, but I don't see where they would have an actual case.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=t:"rabbit"&v=card&s=cname

Pretty interested in the game, but man, Wizards of the Coast keep painting themselves in this negative light

How so? Most of their claims are pretty legitimate, and as the article linked above explains in great detail, they could easily win some of these claims.

Reading through the thread, what bugs me most about the rip off complaints is that I see Hex as Magic++. It starts from Magic and then attempts to build from it. It's making an effort to be more than a Magic rip off by being bigger mechanically. Beyond the PvE stuff (which expands on things even more), there isn't a large pool of Hex-unique effects and the base mechanical foundation is almost 1:1 (with the main changes being charge effects and threshold) but that already changes the flow of the game. I want to say that it even affects deck building but the majority of my tiny experience with Magic is in draft. And I can only assume that the number of differences from Magic will only grow as more sets are released and new mechanics and effects are added.

The board in general dislikes companies that clone a game and leave it at that. But Cryptozoic has no plans at all to leave things as "a complete rip-off."

While I do agree that expanding on the concepts is cool, what other TCGs do is they come up with their own core game and then expand it with cool concepts. Hex just took Magic (they even one-to-one copied some really niche and specific cards) and then expanded that. I frown upon that because creating your own mechanics (however much inspiration you take from others) is impressive, but wholesale copying a base game is to me, not cool at all.

 

[Minsc]

While I do agree that expanding on the concepts is cool, what other TCGs do is they come up with their own core game and then expand it with cool concepts. Hex just took Magic (they even one-to-one copied some really niche and specific cards) and then expanded that. I frown upon that because creating your own mechanics (however much inspiration you take from others) is impressive, but wholesale copying a base game is to me, not cool at all.

You know what else is not cool? Making people wait like 20 years for a decent online version of MtG with complete deck building and cheaply priced drafting, and even then showing nothing promising. That's part of the reason Hex came to existence I believe.

 

[nynt9]

You know what else is not cool? Making people wait like 20 years for a decent online version of MtG with complete deck building and cheaply priced drafting, and even then showing nothing promising. That's part of the reason Hex came to existence I believe.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You might be dissatisfied with MTGO (a lot of people are fine with it) but that doesn't have any bearing on whether Hex is similar to MTG or not. I understand that people might be upset with WOTC for MTGO, but try not to let that color your thoughts on this matter.

 

[Ryuukan]

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You might be dissatisfied with MTGO (a lot of people are fine with it) but that doesn't have any bearing on whether Hex is similar to MTG or not. I understand that people might be upset with WOTC for MTGO, but try not to let that color your thoughts on this matter.

Last I checked, this is a gaming forum populated by people who play games. So yes, it's very relevant to public discussion about two gaming companies.

Your diligent efforts to police every post in this thread against WOTC won't go unnoticed though. I'm sure you'll get some DCI points out of it or maybe some promos.

 

[Toxi]

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You might be dissatisfied with MTGO (a lot of people are fine with it) but that doesn't have any bearing on whether Hex is similar to MTG or not. I understand that people might be upset with WOTC for MTGO, but try not to let that color your thoughts on this matter.

I'm not.

That said, I can't imagine why people would be happy for Hex as a substitute.

 

[nynt9]

Last I checked, this is a gaming forum populated by people who play games. So yes, it's very relevant to public discussion about two gaming companies.

Your diligent efforts to police every post in this thread against WOTC won't go unnoticed though. I'm sure you'll get some DCI points out of it or maybe some promos.

I'm not trying to police this thread. I'm just trying to keep the discussion relevant, because a significant amount of posts are "yeah I don't like MTG/MTGO so this ruling is bad" but that doesn't really make for a convincing or meaningful discussion of this lawsuit.

 

[Minsc]

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You might be dissatisfied with MTGO (a lot of people are fine with it) but that doesn't have any bearing on whether Hex is similar to MTG or not. I understand that people might be upset with WOTC for MTGO, but try not to let that color your thoughts on this matter.

My point was Hex is trying to fill a void. If it that void didn't exist, this particular thread might not even exist (as Hex as it is now may be something entirely different). It's a void that has existed for 10+ years, and people want a product that lets them enjoy MtG-style gaming with online drafting in a nice interface, and that is what Hex is trying to create since WotC doesn't seem to.

Quite a few people have commented who've played both games, and while the mechanics/rules are nearly identical (which is legal), the cards as a whole do bring a different experience to the table. The courts will decide if its different enough to exist alongside MtG, but that may take years. So this topic will inevitably drift a little offhand from time to time, but if it is a problem, you can pm a mod or a mod will address it in the thread.

 

[TheYanger]

I actually was surprised when this Kickstarter first came about, I'm sure there are VERY nuanced differences, but on the surface? Hex is SUPER similar to Magic. Much moreso than other TCGs that are magic-alike (For instance, the wow tcg was similar to magic in a lot of ways, but it was still MILES more different than Hex is).

 

[Minsc]

Curious how much resemblance that will have to Mega Man. They say the project has nothing to do with Capcom or Mega Man, but you'd have to be blind to not see the similarities in that screenshot. Would we want to see things like Mighty No. 9 also be sued / shut down for being very much like Mega Man? Again, I'm not sure how much exactly is the same, but from the looks of the screenshot above, quite a bit. The scheme of the bosses is similar too, and the bosses giving weapon power ups and so on.

 

[GDJustin]

WOTC has no case. I like MtG and I'm so-so on Hex, but this really, really lowers my opinion of Wizards.

The games definitely share lots of similarities, but they're also very very different. In theme, scope, mechanics, monetization... there are real, meaningful differences in virtually all aspects.

Sad world when people can iterate, change, and improve on what others do in major ways without fear of getting sued into oblivion by a big corporation.

 

[ultron87]

Curious how much resemblance that will have to Mega Man. They say the project has nothing to do with Capcom or Mega Man, but you'd have to be blind to not see the similarities in that screenshot. Would we want to see things like Mighty No. 9 also be sued / shut down for being very much like Mega Man? Again, I'm not sure how much exactly is the same, but from the looks of the screenshot above, quite a bit. The scheme of the bosses is similar too, and the bosses giving weapon power ups and so on.

Even though I've been arguing that Hex is a Magic ripoff in this thread I also don't want this (or similar) lawsuits to be successful. It would absolutely be stifling to creativity in all games if you there starts being a precedent for such suits being successful. I certainly have a stake in this since I donated a fairly significant amount to the Hex Kickstarter that I'd rather didn't poof into dust after a shutdown.

I just want people to call things what they are. Hex was very clearly a Magic ripoff from the jump. They then changed it a little bit. That's the reason I gave money to it, because, as you said, 7 dollar on-demand drafts for a Magic-like game fills a desire I have. I'd rather do that then spend 15 on MTGO to get cards I probably already own in paper. It is totally convenient for me that my learned knowledge from Magic drafting and playing let me 6-0 my first ever Hex draft last night with approximately no knowledge of the card pool or format.

If I was a game designer I'd probably be disappointed if I was told to just straight up copy another game and tweak it a little bit, but that was probably a wonderful business decision (assuming they make it through this suit intact).

Mighty No. 9 looks like a Megaman "ripoff" too. It is obviously viewed a little different since Inafune is on it, but that wouldn't make a difference in a court. So it'd be nice if that didn't get sued.

 

[Aureon]

Curious how much resemblance that will have to Mega Man. They say the project has nothing to do with Capcom or Mega Man, but you'd have to be blind to not see the similarities in that screenshot. Would we want to see things like Mighty No. 9 also be sued / shut down for being very much like Mega Man? Again, I'm not sure how much exactly is the same, but from the looks of the screenshot above, quite a bit. The scheme of the bosses is similar too, and the bosses giving weapon power ups and so on.

Mighty No. 9 probably won't get sued for the following reasons:
- Japanese jurisdictions are not nearly as sue-happy as USA's
- Original creator is on it (Shouldn't be relevant, but when the law doesn't clearly state what will happen, it'll influence the people who make the decision)
- MegaMan IP holder is probably not concerned with competition issues; especially since a 'Game like megaman' could result in more 'damn i really want another megaman, it's been ten years' rather than 'Eh, itch scratched, i'm okay for another 10 years!'

It's pretty hard to argue that, morally, they deserve to get sued, since Inafune is on it, really.

 

[Discobird]

WOTC has no case. I like MtG and I'm so-so on Hex, but this really, really lowers my opinion of Wizards.

The games definitely share lots of similarities, but they're also very very different. In theme, scope, mechanics, monetization... there are real, meaningful differences in virtually all aspects.

I won't argue the extent of the similarities since that's been done to death in this thread, but none of the things you pointed out make a whit of difference to the patent infringement claim. Here is Wizard's patent for reference: http://www.google.com/patents/USRE37957 .

It's a broad patent on its face, and the broadest claims are not limited by a particular theme, scope, monetization method or even mechanics (except at the highest level of abstraction).

Maybe the case will go to trial and the patent will be invalidated. That's certainly possible. But Wizards clearly at least has a case here. I don't see any way the case gets dismissed short of a settlement / voluntary dismissal. Whether that's good or bad for the industry is a whole other can of worms.

 

[TheYanger]

I don't even think Wizards is super immediately concerned with Hex, but if they don't at least pursue their legal options they're opening themselves up in the future due to letting this one slide, no?

 

[FieryBalrog]

You know what else is not cool? Making people wait like 20 years for a decent online version of MtG with complete deck building and cheaply priced drafting, and even then showing nothing promising. That's part of the reason Hex came to existence I believe.

That's why I play Hearthstone

FFG has stated they don't have plans to release a digital version of Android: Netrunner, denying me the ability to play from the comfort of my iPad and so on. That doesn't, in my eyes. legitimize the creation of Robot: Webwalker, the hot new iPad game that is totally not that other game because we added some stuff that is digital only. Etc. (whether legally allowed or not).

 

[charlequin]

And copyright for things like this absolutely IS a "look and feel" issue.

And we've discussed that quite a bit in the thread, but it's entirely separate from the copyrighting of game mechanics, which remains explicitly forbidden.

Like I said upthread, I don't think "would reasonable people be confused" is actually the test WotC would be likely to win here. The presentation of the digital client is much more driven by function than the decisions about the game mechanics.

I don't even think Wizards is super immediately concerned with Hex, but if they don't at least pursue their legal options they're opening themselves up in the future due to letting this one slide, no?

Not particularly. Of the three primary branches of IP (trademark, copyright, and patent) only trademarks have any legal requirement for defense -- copyright holders are specifically allowed to apply whatever arbitrary licensing regime they choose (outside specific exceptions like the music compulsory license) and patents can't be invalidated because a company refuses to bring legal action against an infringer. WotC is technically bringing a trademark complaint here but it's basically spurious; the serious questions have to do with copyrights and patents, neither of which they are required by law to defend.

 

[Proven]

Another question, patents like the one in question can't be renewed after their 20 year period is up, or can they?

 

[FieryBalrog]

Maybe not "required by law to defend", but the question arises: if they don't sue Hex, would they actually defend their IP against anyone at all? How much more blatant could it possibly be, beyond direct lifting of artwork?

 

[zerokoolpsx]

Hex really does look like DoTP during combat phase. Some cards really are similiar, funny how they pick Murder, but it has one less threshold compared to Magic with the same effect.
There is no way to accelerate resources in Hex right?
Hex got dungeons, PvE and champions which have their own abilities. The mercenaries looks like more fun.
Imo, its different enough, but thats for the courts to decide.

 

[ultron87]

There is no way to accelerate resources in Hex right?

Sure there is.

Would you like a Llanowar Elf or a Nature's Lore?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Hmmm

Yeah, that's kinda similar.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

As mentioned previously the game terms are a literal one-to-one translation of MTG:
game zones (leaving aside Hand and Play as "obvious"):
Stack -> Chain (most other CCGs don't use MTG's stack system, btw)
Exile -> Void
Graveyard -> Graveyard (lol)

card types:
Sorcery -> Basic Action
Instant -> Quick Action (nice one guys)
Enchantment -> Constant
Creature -> Troop
Artifact -> Artifact
Land -> Shard

mechanics:
Haste -> Speed
Trample -> Crush
First Strike -> Swiftstrike (they even kept the exact timing structure of MTG's "first strike vs regular" combat, which is a bit silly because it's one of the clunkiest things about MTG combat).
Cannot be blocked except by black or artifact creatures -> Cannot be blocked except by "blood" or artifact creatures (yes, really)

Yes I'm aware that the mana system is mildly different. So different that it still includes:
The Color Wheel, with 5 Colors of White/Blue/Black/Red/Green. (Oh wait, black is "purple" now. Massive innovation)
Getting Mana Screwed/Flooded

Mechanical division of effects among colors:
white-> mass destruction, prevent damage, army of small creatures
red -> direct damage, spell copying, haste (sorry, "speed") creatures
green -> mana (sorry, "shard") production, big creatures, growth effects
black -> trade life for resources like cards, creature kill effects, discard
blue -> draw cards, tap effects, counterspells, copy effects

It's all rather blatant.

This all sounds pretty damning.
Even down to the same type of color wheel. Nothing wrong with 5 colors, but you could try to innovate a bit.

 

[Minsc]

This all sounds pretty damning.
Even down to the same type of color wheel. Nothing wrong with 5 colors, but you could try to innovate a bit.

I saw this linked from their forum thread on this issues earlier today, if you want to see a hex-biased view of what is different (really just doesn't hurt sometimes to see it from the other side).

It's a fairly detailed write-up trying to argue everything that is different, but from a Hex fan's PoV, so it's going to be a bit biased, fyi. Not everything argued is as different as they try to make it sound, but still, I think it's worth browsing, even if just to see the arguments trying to be made.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I saw this linked from their forum thread on this issues earlier today, if you want to see a hex-biased view of what is different (really just doesn't hurt sometimes to see it from the other side).

It's a fairly detailed write-up trying to argue everything that is different, but from a Hex fan's PoV, so it's going to be a bit biased, fyi. Not everything argued is as different as they try to make it sound, but still, I think it's worth browsing, even if just to see the arguments trying to be made.

Thanks, that was an interesting read, and they did point out a bunch of differences between Hex and MTG but it seems the vast majority of the differences are simply additional mechanics that haven't been added yet, and it doesn't really address the major list of similarities between the two TCGs. I guess the issue is that Cryptozoic started out with the a base of HEX that didn't have all those novel mechanics that arise as a result of it being a digital TCG, and as a result you don't see how innovative it is but rather a digital reiteration of MTG.

If Hex had all those extra features already, then they would probably have a stronger case against it not infringing on MTG's patents/whatevers.

 

[Dolor]

If wotc wins, that will be unbelievably bad for consumers. Activision or EA will sue every fps maker etc.

 

[Phades]

If wotc wins, that will be unbelievably bad for consumers. Activision or EA will sue every fps maker etc.

Lol, I imagine that would be worse than Apple and Rambus patent trolling.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

If wotc wins, that will be unbelievably bad for consumers. Activision or EA will sue every fps maker etc.

Yeah, despite the similarities, I still don't want the lawsuit to go in WotC's favor because of the implications. I do hope that Cryptozoic will take this as a wake-up call and try to change up Hex to differentiate it more - making it into more than just a digital MTC copycat.

 

[Brakara]

If wotc wins, that will be unbelievably bad for consumers. Activision or EA will sue every fps maker etc.

It would indeed be a bad precedent, but not for that reason. It would be bad for the TCG market, but FPS games will be safe (it's way, way too late to start with that nonsense now).

 

[Phades]

It would indeed be a bad precedent, but not for that reason. It would be bad for the TCG market, but FPS games will be safe (it's way, way too late to start with that nonsense now).

Not really. Just think of it in context of all future IP not published by the big 3. Might as just pull the rope on the guillotine for indy development as a whole.

 

[Effer]

Wizards of the Coast is Hasbro.

Hasbro's lawyers are delighted to prance around stepping on people's balls for something to do. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...les-sends-lawyers-investigators-instead.shtml They are wholesale unscrupulous.

 

[wanders]

Yeah, despite the similarities, I still don't want the lawsuit to go in WotC's favor because of the implications. I do hope that Cryptozoic will take this as a wake-up call and try to change up Hex to differentiate it more - making it into more than just a digital MTC copycat.

I thought the big appeal to Hex was that it was similar to MTG. And I think it's too late to make any fundamental changes

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I thought the big appeal to Hex was that it was similar to MTG. And I think it's too late to make any fundamental changes

They don't really need fundemental changes, I think just changing up the design of the cards (and tweaking the obvious offenders) might be enough.

 

[Spiritreaver]

They don't really need fundemental changes, I think just changing up the design of the cards (and tweaking the obvious offenders) might be enough.

Yeah I tend to agree. Also hopefully it's just this set that is so blatant. I remember reading that set 2 is really supposed to show the neat tricks you can do with a digital card game. One can hope that this first set was just a test run and they didn't feel the need to borrow so much from MTG in set 2.

 

[Totakeke]

If wotc wins, that will be unbelievably bad for consumers. Activision or EA will sue every fps maker etc.

It would indeed be a bad precedent, but not for that reason. It would be bad for the TCG market, but FPS games will be safe (it's way, way too late to start with that nonsense now).

Definitely don't agree. There's so much variety in the TCG and it's not like WotC has stopped any of that from happening.

While I did support the Hex kickstarter with my own money, I don't mind Cryptozoic losing this one because it'll discourage people from creating more blatant copies of TCG mechanics considering TCGs are probably one of the easiest genre to innovate in. If Cryptozoic wins this one and more developers create even more blatant copies of MtG, then it'll be unbelievably bad for consumers.

 

[StayDead]

I know it's not really controversial but I believe copyright laws have gone far too far. Things get copyrighted for too long and certain ideas that should never have been able to be copyrighted are being copyrighted.

How the hell can you copyright the use of turning a card 90 degrees in a card game? It's an incredibly anti-consumer/anti-player situation, because some games for example may have a mechanic that's amazing, but is locked to a terrible game or something similar where the company who came up with it charges far too much for the ability to use it. Copyright laws don't aid innovation, they quell it.

 

[Totakeke]

I know it's not really controversial but I believe copyright laws have gone far too far. Things get copyrighted for too long and certain ideas that should never have been able to be copyrighted are being copyrighted.

How the hell can you copyright the use of turning a card 90 degrees in a card game? It's an incredibly anti-consumer/anti-player situation, because some games for example may have a mechanic that's amazing, but is locked to a terrible game or something similar where the company who came up with it charges far too much for the ability to use it. Copyright laws don't aid innovation, they quell it.

There's plenty of card games that have tapping-like mechanics. If Hex only copied tapping, no one would care.