If that's the argument, then yeah, of course an incarnation of Link could be female, provided Nintendo seed the proper justification. I don't see why not, it's not really a matter of opinion but what the developers decide to do.
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Aonuma: That was Link in the Wii U Zelda trailer, denies 'female' rumors
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If that's the argument, then yeah, of course an incarnation of Link could be female, provided Nintendo seed the proper justification. I don't see why not, it's not really a matter of opinion but what the developers decide to do.
Are you serious? We wouldn't be having this thread if Link's gender was so clear. Stop assuming things about people.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Other media has given the possibility of a female incarnation, yet they don't do it and I doubt it's only because they feel like it. These are companies with resources I'm sure there's some logic they're using at least in a business stand point.
But just like there's some simply talking about the possibility, others are saying that link should be female at some point due to the possibility given this lore standard due to a misrepresentation of females in media. So let's not pretend it's only one side being close minded both have their extremists. Wasn't there a guy saying yesterday that if you don't like the idea of a different link that you don't support gay marriage?
SenorArdilla
Member
- Trailer is shown with Link in it.
- Some people think Link looks girly. "Could Zelda be a girl?" starts up.
- Aonuma makes a comment about the female Link speculation & how Link is not Link.
- Some people interpret it as confirmation of female Link. Backlash from people who want male Link.
- Abundance of circumstantial evidence and shops for both sides debating.
- Aonuma dismisses the "female Link" rumor.
- Jeering from "male Link" supporters. Backlash from "female Link" supporters.
Ironically, if Link looked more like a man to people, this would have never sprung up the way it did.
It's not the argument across the board. A lot of us have been arguing against a female Link from a conceptual standpoint, not necessarily a "feelings and status quo" one. People who apply that criticism to the entire thread are just misrepresenting the debate.
I'm going to be honest in that I have no idea what you're trying to say by bolding these.
As for a poll, sure.
If you don't want me to respond then you shouldn't be in a discussion debating this. I'm still going to, it's up to you if you want to respond back. You can bow out of the thread.
PdotMichael
Banned
Doesn't surprise me.
Do you want to elaborate or are we just going to keep up the snarky attitude?
Spring-Loaded
Member
Yeah, that's true.
If you want, go back and read through the reveal thread and this one. You'll see this discussion spawn from people saying "hey, Link looks like/could be a girl here" among other speculation of who the character actually is.
Some people chime in that they do/don't want Link to be a girl, and then come people who say Link shouldn't be a girl and attempt to back it up objectively citing tradition, Link's "consistent" appearance/character, Etc. In response to those statements, there are people who say none of those reasons actually dictate that Link should stay male. You also have some "Link should be a girl," posts mostly from people who want to see a female Link, yet also want a female link to spite those that are staunchly trying to oppose such a change/addition.
In short, "Link should be a girl" is no more than an opinion — just like "Link shouldn't be a girl," — yet it only came up in response to "Link shouldn't be a girl."
The conceptual argument doesn't make sense either though.
You saying it's ultimately subjective either way is right though, and that's why people saying "Link objectively shouldn't be a girl" are wrong.
doesn't look that way to me, in any case how many people thought TP Link was female during the reveal? here we have several huge threads about how a character that is Link could be Zelda or a female Link. I don't want to start measuring hips and stuff, but if you think the difference between this last Link and TP Link is slight I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
The poll would have a third trolling option and many people will pick that. Then, whichever side has the least votes will state that there are more supporters of their opinion but those people picked the third option, so they still win. Every GAF poll.
(btw I'm a poll expert)
(btw I'm a poll expert)
If you don't see how it's subjective (at which point, there would be no reason for a debate between us) then I'm just not going to bother responding back. Literally the entirety of your previous post consisted of making points that I'd already addressed earlier, and I don't like reiterating the exact same statements over and over again.
Can you be a bit more specific than "conceptual standpoint"?
Poor wording, I was talking about his argument. Sorry.
I was just saying they could, if they could justify it, but I'm against the idea of it if it means changing an iconic character i.e. they could but they shouldn't.
MistressMoitie
Member
I'm sorry, but I don't understand how I personally am being catered to when Link was a character that was created by Nintendo without my input whatsoever. Also, what you seem to be saying is that those who want a female Link should now be catered to. I don't think anyone should be catered to. I think Nintendo should maintain its artistic integrity and do what it feels best with its properties. I love the Zelda series and I want everyone to be happy, and either way I'm sure it will be a great game. Male Link is just my cup of tea, that's all.
Edit: and I know what it's like to go through life as a female. I don't need to play as one in a video game all the time.
Elaborate.
Read the previous page. For a variety of reasons that I've already brought up multiple times, I don't think changing Link to FemLink is any different than changing Mario to Marioette, reincarnation or not.
Royalan is spot on. Nobody was ever saying Link had to be female. In fact my initial response to the design was that it was Zelda in disguise, not a female Link. It's that the people arguing that Link can't be female are ignoring the lore and creators comments.
You made the decision to respond with a lengthy post to mine and then tell me not to bother responding after the initial post.
You don't see how that's a little silly?
I'm not forcing you to debate with me. You don't have to respond after I do.
You made the decision to respond with a lengthy post to mine and then tell me not to bother responding after the initial post.
You don't see how that's a little silly?
I'm not forcing you to debate with me. You don't have to respond after I do.
Admiral Woofington
Member
You people forget the rule of every debate where if you get the last word you feel like the winner.
As I've said, I don't like having a discussion with people who force me to repeat points that I've already made because they posted without reading my responses. Nothing personal, but I just don't think it's worth it.
Augemitbutter
Member
goddamn.
But you don't know what I was going to write. You made the assumption that all I was going to do was force you to repeat previous arguments. Was I going to disagree? more than likely yes but for all you know I was going to agree while adding in other points.
If you want to dismiss our argument as repetitive at least wait until I've actually responded.
We're just going to have to fundamentally disagree on that then. I don't agree with your stance that Link and Mario are similar characters. and I don't think I ever will. There's that the very idea of a female Link sparked such debate, while nobody is really clamoring for Mario/Luigi/DK/Samus to gender swap.
SenorArdilla
Member
At least we know he's still quiet.
Spring-Loaded
Member
There's nothing about any of the Zelda stories that requires the Link to have been male. Going on an adventure to save the land, as far as gender-centric types of stories go, isn't a male-centric one. you could go back and make Link female in every Zelda game and nothing would need to be altered outside of pronouns and appearance.
There are stories out there that either strongly rely on the gender of their leads and this is not one of them.
PdotMichael
Banned
Did you count "Link should stay like he was" as "Link shouldn't be a girl"?
The later one kind of implies that some people are okay if Link ends as tentacle monster (or whatever) if he doesn't end as girl.
pretty good
I think we may be arguing from two entirely different mindsets. The overall point I've been trying to make is that I personally do not prefer a female Link because I believe she would represent something too different conceptually as far as Link's iconic design goes, and in turn, I think it's because I've always seen Link's appearance as homogeneous enough to represent the same concept. A female Link, to me, would be too much of a departure from that. If you don't agree then that's completely fine but I don't think my viewpoint should be construed as something invalid or something that "doesn't make sense" just because it's subjective.
Mario doesn't rely on the gender of its lead either, but that wouldn't make it any less awkwardly out-of-place for many gamers out there.
Even if I don't know what you were going to write, the point is that I just don't care about what you were going to write. Once again (and you're proving my point by the way) I don't like debating with members who have a tendency to ignore any prior points I've made. You'd more than likely just do the same thing you've been doing.
I've ALREADY dismissed our argument as repetitive, and I think I'm completely justified in doing that.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Either way, they're opposed to change, and many are trying to qualify their opinion as fact.
And even though not everyone opposed to Link being a girl would accept any change outside of that, there have been people who are okay with other changes between games, yet draw a line at making Link a girl while saying Link objectively can't be a girl. I'll go quote those posts again in need be.
PdotMichael
Banned
Yes, I would like to see the posts of users who are okay with significantly changes for Link but aren't okay with turning Link into a girl.
"Link shouldn't be a girl" sounds like a big asspull.
Let's take a look at your response:
Where in this do you say our argument is repetitive and that there's no point in responding?
You didn't. Instead you waited until after I said I would respond later to say:
Which is cutting me off before I even get a chance to respond to the initial response.
Don't make a post baiting a response only to say don't bother.
Either way don't worry, I won't bother with one.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Give me a bit of time then and I'll find those quotes. If you want, just read through these threads yourself:
www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=834785
www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=836231
It's a lot to go through, but I assure you that you'll see those posts. There are some within the last couple of pages no less.
Yes, and as you said, it's all a matter of personal taste, nothing more.
Even still, someone can make a statement about their opinion, yet be contradictory and come up with wrong reasons for why they feel a certain way. Saying a female Link bothers you because Link would no longer look like Link doesn't make much sense when female Link could still look really close to the already androgynous design, and because there are already been considerable changes to that design. There have been posters here who have said just that, and while it's their opinion, their explanation doesn't make much sense/is illogical.
I believe there are plenty of people who say they have a problem with female Link that actually wouldn't be bothered playing such a Zelda game like they say they would. Same with people who were opposed to WW art style initially and ended up loving it.
Read the part where I say "Have you read my previous posts?"; if that didn't tip you off that I found it annoying to debate with you, I'm not really sure what would.
Yeah because saying "have you read my previous posts?" is totally the same thing as "this debate is getting repetitive therefore don't bother responding". You can keep up the attitude but overall I've extended you the courtesy of a response and in return you've been rude.
But now we're going in circles over this and I'd rather not continue. So let's move on, shall we?
Once again, this is where we differ. I don't agree that a female Link would be "really close to the already androgynous design", because if it was, there would be absolutely no point in making Link female to begin with. And once again, I and several others in this thread do NOT agree with you on the point that there have been "considerable changes" to Link's design to the degree that he could easily be gender-swapped. This is where the subjectivity comes in - you obviously think the difference between Link's various designs is more drastic and varied, I think they're nearly the same. We will never reach a consensus on this, so the best we can hope for is to try and understand and respect each other's arguments.
Sorry for the late response, I missed it while I was responding to the other posters.
I was never saying only you were needing to be catered to. I was talking about anyone with the mentality that male Link fans shouldn't feel alienated(which is something I don't really understand since I'm huge fan of Links design but something new is totally welcome) thus you're asking to be considered. The reason I bring up this point of why that mentality shouldn't be catered to is because it has been for every single Zelda title.
Another thing is what exactly can they do to no make the fans alienated while still keeping a female Link?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're not allowed to prefer male Link or not be disappointed if we were to have the female lead instead. It's that(not saying you're doing this) if people are going to use that disappointment as an excuse to dismiss a female Link ever happening then that isn't okay.
Admiral Woofington
Member
The thing is I could also find posts that show people arguing and harming your point of view. Both sides started this discussion, stubbornness isn't inherent only to one and both will have people bringing down the cause.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Speaking solely about apperance:
These differences are considerable.
A female Link in the style of TP would look more like male TP Link than male WW Link looks like TP Link. The difference is between WW and TP is bigger than a different gender version of a given Link would be to its male counterpart.
That's why the "appearance/recognizable" argument doesn't really make much sense. Female Link can still fit in with the other Links appearance-wise as much as any other Link does.
this is only one post from the other thread, but it contains the argument(s) I'm talking about:
Even this person mentions character traits that are reliant on gender/sex which doesn't support their stance that Link needs to stay male.
Starting an argument and responding to an argument simply aren't the same thing, and trying to objectively prove Link must stay male still doesn't make sense regardless.
t-storm
Member
Got that a bit backwards son; he's arguing from rationality, you're arguing feelings and opinions. Everything you've "stated" is relative and subjective from lore to androgyny.
All I see is a light-skinned character with parted, blondish-brown to blonde hair and an androgynous-yet-boyish face wearing a green tunic with very slight variations. WW Link's conceptual appearance, age aside, is fundamentally the same as TP Link's - the only difference truly separating the two is the artstyle.
A lot of us believe a female Link would be too dramatic of a departure from that conceptual design template unless Nintendo decides to make her just as androgynous, which I don't see happening since the alteration would be utterly pointless in that case.
You and I are just not going to see eye-to-eye here.
I won't discuss the first part for obvious reasons but I have a question about the second. Wouldn't that only apply if we hadn't already seen the design?
While yes you might not see the new design as looking feminine, if Aonuma were to say it were, then how does that argument work that a female would be too different?
Because every Link's face is effeminate to an extent? If Aonuma were to say something to that effect, I don't see how it changes the argument. As you're probably aware, even the new Link looks distinctly boyish enough to some of us.
Only if Aonuma were to turn around again and claim he double-trolled us, that the new Link was a female all along, would I change my tune. I still wouldn't see the point though.
Fair enough.
I will say that the reason I asked is because most people in this thread are arguing with this design in mind and not something else. It also doesn't help that Aonuma's comments(not the trolling "I never said it was Link" kind of contributed to the effenimate design in that it was intentional.
Punchy4486
Banned
Speaking solely about apperance:
These differences are considerable.
A female Link in the style of TP would look more like male TP Link than male WW Link looks like TP Link. The difference is between WW and TP is bigger than a different gender version of a given Link would be to its male counterpart.
That's why the "appearance/recognizable" argument doesn't really make much sense. Female Link can still fit in with the other Links appearance-wise as much as any other Link does.
this is only one post from the other thread, but it contains the argument(s) I'm talking about:
Even this person mentions character traits that are reliant on gender/sex which doesn't support their stance that Link needs to stay male.
Starting an argument and responding to an argument simply aren't the same thing, and trying to objectively prove Link must stay male still doesn't make sense regardless.
This picture to me reinforces how little his design has changed. Adding white tights or under-armor or pretty much the only significant changes that have ever happened, and making a character look more detailed due to more powerful hardware, or less awkward as a teenager with bare legs, isn't the same as swapping genders.
yes I'm serious... the only reason this is even being discussed is because there are people out there who want link to be female. so given an opportunity to see link as female, they jumped on and started questioning his gender. people even started photoshopping the picture to make him more feminine.
maybe i'm just more used to seeing "androgynous" male characters as i watch anime.. and there are a lot of them in that medium, but what exactly in the picture makes people think that this link is androgynous? the longer hair?
What an inaccurate generalization.
I think a lot of people were captivated by the idea of Link being female because it was the freshest thing about that trailer (outside of the gorgeous art). For a lot of people the Zelda series is bordering on stale and whenever Nnitendo promises to shake up the formula they never seem to fully commit to doing that. Seeing a female Link seemed like an indicator that Nintendo might be serious this time around about shaking up the very core of the series.
But I don't think people were praying for Link to be female before the trailer and just concocted something to fit that belief. From my perspective, the desire for a female Link this time around came after viewing the trailer and seeing a character more feminine looking than any Link Nintendo's ever created.
If you have proof that everyone in here debating for Female Link has asked previously for one and are now projecting then show it. Otherwise stop making untrue statements.
I've never considered the idea of a female Link. If anything I was wanting a playable Zelda but that's the extent of it.
As for the androgyny, it's the slimmer face and body, the curves and also having longer hair than usual and a pony tail. Not only that but a bow and arrow is a more commonly used weapon for women in media.
Spring-Loaded
Member
We don't share the same opinion, but you've already said that whether Link should/shouldn't be a girl is a matter of opinion, which is what I believe since it's true.
Still, nothing you've presented suggests a female Link would look so different from past Links as to be unrecognizable or any more different from all other Links as any existing Link does. That people thought this new Link could be female based on appearance alone is testament to that.
You've said this is is all a matter of opinion, therefore only metric for what looks too different is how one feels about the appearance of each Link. Even if you're suggesting that a female Link is somehow too different conceptually, that doesn't have to do with appearance, which is what we're discussing right now. If we were discussing how recognizable
On top of that, the importance of the traits you list is also up to opinion. You think WW Link and TP Link are fundamentally the same conceptually while I believe art style is fundamental. There's no way I could come to the conclusion that a female SS Link looks more different from a male SS Link than how different WW Link looks from either unless I place particular importance on the characters sex. Considering everything else about past Links and the series as a whole, I can't find any part of these games that demands Link be male.
You still aren't saying how a gender change will make Link look "too different" in any objective way. You're stating your opinion, which is fine, but if you're trying to convince people these are the reasons you have the opinion that a female Link is too much of a difference, then you're reasoning doesn't make sense.
How is art style shifting not a significant change? The style for each game hasn't been entirely due to technology. Even the concept artwork for each game has been different from the others.