shadowstar
Member
I'm pretty sure he meant that.
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This is Phil Fish
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
I'm pretty sure he meant that.
I took a screen too if needed before he deleted his account :
Probably just a temporary deactivation.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
I'm primarily a pc gamer. 4770k and an acx 780. Your analogy was poor in my most humble opinion, good sir. You can take my advice and apply it to future debates or leave it. Best wishes in your future endeavours.
Phil Fish is a strange case. Kind of "famous for being famous". He was obviously very good at promoting himself and his game, and got a lot of press that way. We can argue all day whether that was justified or not, but the fact that he got a lot of press attention only added more fuel to the hate fire. At some point, people seemed to start hating him just because he was a successful indie developer that "came out of nowhere".
I do think he was acted immature a lot of the time, and a lot of the backlash he got was squarely his own doing, but at the same time we live in a culture where we love to hate people, and he became a pretty easy target to a lot of people.
I do think he was acted immature a lot of the time, and a lot of the backlash he got was squarely his own doing, but at the same time we live in a culture where we love to hate people, and he became a pretty easy target to a lot of people.
Honestly I think SM3DW is actually a relatively loose ended gaming, most 3d games are. As a mechanically inclined gamer I really appreciate that game. Anyhow in response to the idea that full walkthroughs and the such spoil secrets and can ruin rising and falling experiences that you may experience playing the game:
C'est la fucking vie. Videos of people playing games have been a very big section of the gaming community for upwards of a decade, if you release a game in today's world and then realize after the fact that plot twists and secrets might get spoiled if someone plays the game in a video, your loss, you don't have the right or the power to try and change and destroy a good chunk of the gaming community just because you don't like the way it works. Let's players didn't ruin Fez, Fez got ruined by Let's Players.
Which is to say, literally all cases of videos of people playing games.
You do have a good point, and it all does lead down to a root cause of the dude just being an asshole, but the dude in the video wasn't even really trying to argue that IMO. I thought your logic was circular because it appeared to be "wow that's a long winded way to say Phil Fish is an asshole, what a waste of time," when in reality the point was that he is not just an asshole, but an explanation for why he is a symbol of both ass and hole. Lol.
I took a screen too if needed before he deleted his account :
Probably just a temporary deactivation.
Ok phil if you pay us royalties for every game sale by our free coverage.
Japanmanx3
Member
Very nice vid. I tend to avoid Phil conversations for various reasons and I have yet to play Fez though I would like but this was well done in opening up larger perspectives and going macro vs the micro focused articles and threads that have been generated about Fish. I have similar feelings towards both Phil and Orth but I don't close out other views on the matter. Listening to J. Blow speak at a conference was very enlightening as well. He, to me, expresses himself with the same amount of passion like Phil, just in a more controlled manner. Hopefully Fez II does come at some point.
Kind sir, you indirectly identified yourself as someone in opposition to the personal computing platform, as a proponent to that platform, you are a wizard.
Catchpenny
Member
Thank you! I was reading the comparisons between Kamiya and Fish, and thought the same things, but you put it better than I would have. Great post.
I'll split my comment to make it easier for you:
why people don't give a fuck about some random dude being an asshole <-- Here i'm talking about someone that isn't famous.
and they do about some famous dude? <-- Here i'm talking about someone that is famous like Phil Fish.
This is exactly my point, this kind of attitude is what i'm talking about. People like you seem to think that famous people deserve to be punished in some way as a downside of being popular, it doesn't matter how small that thing is, they HAVE to be punished.
I disagree. Promotion and demonstration do not fall under fair use.
Footage of gameplay falls under neither of those categories with the rare exception.
Midnight Phoenix
Member
I must agree, Sandbox games will be not hurt by video streaming, but story driven games, will suffer from it. There is no stats, about how much damage video streaming does to sales or rise them, but if companies ban them, they have more info and not just "don't touch my candle".
I think we must be watching completely different videos.
That said, speaking as an indie dev, I would hope people would want to make videos of my games. I would hope people would want to watch them. And I'd be thankful for the broadcasters/YouTubers who make and put up the videos. It'd definitely be a case of mutual benefit for me and them.
But I don't think that means I or any dev shouldn't be able to copyright claim on videos. I disagree with wanting to do that, but I think it should be allowed all the same.
There's a MASSIVE difference between taking a video down with a copyright claim, and trying to violate people's rights by preventing them from monetizing videos of video games.
I don't know that the difference is massive, but even so it's just a matter of finding a balance.
The uploader/broadcaster has taken the time to find the audience and post the videos. Maybe minor compared to the work the dev(s) put into the game, but not insignificant. So it'd be unfair for a dev to claim the whole ad revenue pie. And that's where negotiations come into play. Uploader doesn't want dev to claim all the revenue? Uploader doesn't upload. Dev wants uploader to upload? Dev lets uploader keep a large enough slice of the pie to make it worth it to him/her. No agreement reached? No video.
I took a screen too if needed before he deleted his account :
Probably just a temporary deactivation.
Smh...
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Nobody said he should be punished. It's basic math.
1. The more people that know you = the more people that hear what you say.
2. When more people hear what you say = more praise or criticism purely due to the amount of people that heard/read your comment.
That's it. And add in the influence that he has by being a game developer that made a great game and POOF you have the ingredients of a person that "when" they say something stupid or disliked; they will be publicly talked about by news sites and everyday chaps on the internet.
D
Deleted member 102362
Unconfirmed Member
Fascinating and informative video. Thanks for posting it, OP.
On the downside, it's another reminder than FEZ II was canceled.
On the downside, it's another reminder than FEZ II was canceled.
It must be hard being attacked and insulted everytime you say something. Everytime there's some news about Phil there's always insults thrown at him. It can't be easy to ignore it all.
Sure, he was rude at times, but that doesn't make him a bad person that deserves this kind of threatment.
He also apolagised to the Japanese dev, recognizing he was a bit rough on him.
I liked Fez and I like Phil. He doesn't deserve the hate he gets thats for sure. Shame we won't get Fez 2 but he probably knows whats best for him and I wish him the best.
Sure, he was rude at times, but that doesn't make him a bad person that deserves this kind of threatment.
He also apolagised to the Japanese dev, recognizing he was a bit rough on him.
I liked Fez and I like Phil. He doesn't deserve the hate he gets thats for sure. Shame we won't get Fez 2 but he probably knows whats best for him and I wish him the best.
You have an extreme bias and it is blinding you. Try and read what you just wrote from a neutral perspective, it is fucking draconian. Developers are not entitled to totalitarian control over all media surrounding their game. By creating a piece of software you don't suddenly have control over Google, your entire consumer base, and the bill of rights. You don't deserve it either.
redhairedking
Junior Member
^^^^this, I thought Fez was fun, but I didn't think it was as amazing as everyone seemed to think it would be.
The thing is: "everyone" in this context happens to be just Phil Fish.
He has a personality disorder. His treatment, if any, needs to be medical.
For sure, I'm willing to admit to having bias. But please explain to me what the neutral perspective is in this case. There's the dev and there's the video maker, and not some in-between ground as far as I can see.
You're going in circles, I don't know if you got missed somewhere or if you didn't read all my posts but i'm not talking about his influence or he being famous, I'm talking about a social problem which a part of it is exposed in the documentary.
I'm talking about the lack of tolerance when it comes to famous people and the false premise of freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
It doesn't have anything to do with the amount of people that knows about him but the fact that people knows that he is famous. He could know hundreds of people without being famous and yet no shit storm would have happened, however since people consider him someone "special" he becomes common target and if we add Internet he becomes a easy common target.
And would you mind to explain to me what does this mean:
Run-M-Run
Member
Someone has a different personality than mine? He must be crazy!
commanderpepper
Member
Good video that explains Phil Fish and the fascination that some have for him.
I never really cared about Fish or Fez. I was interested in Fez because it looked good and looked like a game I wanted to play. When I saw mentions of Fish on twitter I would ignore them because I try to ignore the majority of game journalism.
I never really cared about Fish or Fez. I was interested in Fez because it looked good and looked like a game I wanted to play. When I saw mentions of Fish on twitter I would ignore them because I try to ignore the majority of game journalism.
I guess I'm going against the grain on this one, but while there are some things in there that I disagree with (YouTube videos equating to piracy), his basic argument seems to be that if YouTubers make money using his work be deserves a share and YouTube should have that feature inbuilt. I completely agree with all of that.I took a screen too if needed before he deleted his account :
Probably just a temporary deactivation.
And no, Phil doesn't need to pay anyone royalties for free advertising. That idea is ludicrous.
No, he actually has a mental disorder. They do exist you know.
I dunno man, the Nickelback hate was pretty intense.
I also don't see anything wrong with him saying developers should should get money for videos of their games. Nothing inherently bad about that at all and it makes sense. No game, no Youtube content. Don't agree with that? Cover another game. Simple as that.
total biscuits much?
I don't even get that point of view. Being on YouTube isn't a job. You can make big money, sure, but it's not a job, you do it because you want to. Some YouTubers get free copies of games to review, that's fine. But to have the guts to say YOU deserve money from the devs for promoting their game is scummy.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I didn't even know who Phil Fish is.
I also don't hate Nickelback as intensely as a lot of people do.
This video went all over the place.
Edit: Ah I see what was meant.
I also don't hate Nickelback as intensely as a lot of people do.
This video went all over the place.
Edit: Ah I see what was meant.
He doesn't actually want money from the dev's, he is remarking about how there is already a quid pro quo in place and how ludicrous it would be to siphon money from the content creators. contents creators work too and they need to eat and them creating content creates buzz around the game. I can name dozens of games whose download servers crashed because of high traffic because a streamer was seen having fun with the game
That's still a one-way street view.
Influence is how much mindshare other people choose to give him, should it be the aforementioned people's own responsibility to regulate their mindshare of him? They have a choice after all?
GuitarAtomik
Member
That was a surprisingly amazing video.
Video brings up really strong points. On one hand I completely agree with the conclusion that nobody can know Phil as a person completely and that it's just absurd to write off every opinion he has, but on the other hand, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the notion of him exhibiting a particularly "assholish" attitude doesn't have any merit. I don't disapprove of his behavior because he isn't adhering to the way an internet celebrity supposedly should act, I disapprove of it simply because I think it's flat-out childish at times (just as I would disapprove of anyone's behavior for the same reasons, no matter how popular or famous).
So while I agree on some level, this analysis doesn't come off as entirely unbiased to me.
So while I agree on some level, this analysis doesn't come off as entirely unbiased to me.
DoktorEvil
Banned
This also led me to find out about Fez and will be picking up a copy if it's on Xbox Arcade.
postcyberpunk
Banned
Jesus, this is some bullshit right here. The game is genius-- great design, playability, puzzles, etc. Get off your high-horse.
cascardian
Member
The video was great, but in describing Fish's behaviour the maker also ignored the simple truths of the Watzlawickian axioms of communication, especially that one cannot not communicate, so it realistically does not matter that we don't really know Fish. It's regrettable on some level, but the whole thing was also basically inevitable. As much as he ultimately cared about what people said about him and his work (which is quite normal), he did not take good enough care to watch what he ultimately communicated. It may be unfair to judge him just for that, but it is also completely human and understandable, as people do this every day every time they merely look at another person. The onus of representing oneself (which can turn into an abstract concept, which is then the object of hate, as the maker of the video describes) always comes back to the person of origin in at least some way (he did say some pretty hateful things), and he did certainly have enough opportunities to represent himself. Realising that he was not good at handling the sudden fame he received and the small pockets of hate that every public figure ever has burning somewhere (hate is but a statistical facet of celebrity status), he could have excused himself from the public eye and not let himself be turned into a mere concept. It was essentially over as soon as the hate had taken hold, because--as we all know--when it rains hate on the Internet, it pours.
That's why personal Twitter accounts for celebrities are a nightmare for their image and PR managers. It allows you to directly communicate (without discrimination or moderation) with another person and it also essentially forces you to be snappy in your way of expressing yourself. That's a dangerous cocktail to be brewing for yourself. It is inevitable that some people simply cannot handle the constant stress of having their ways of communication scrutinised--again, without moderation--by a large, faceless audience. It may be sad, but it is also really just what it is. And this is not a problem that is in any way unknown or unsolvable. I don't want to blame the victim here, but is anyone really under the delusion that basic human tenets that make up society are going to change any time soon?
An absolutely superb video that ignores one very important point: once he developed a revenue-generating audience for his company, Mr. Fish had a responsibility to be famous "correctly" NOT for his audience but for his company and those who were employed by it.
The fact that Mr. Fish simply couldn't grasp that concept indicates either a significant degree of either selfishness or naivete or possibly both.
The fact that Mr. Fish simply couldn't grasp that concept indicates either a significant degree of either selfishness or naivete or possibly both.
That's what I feared you'd say. What role does the consumer play in determining whether a video maker should have free license to maker a video of a dev's game, or whether money/favors should be exchanged?
Secret Fawful
Member
I think Fez is an incredible game. I can't even think of a "but" to go with that. It's extremely relaxing and the way the levels are laid out and connected, moving from one puzzle and collectable to another feels really addictive. But that's just me.
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