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This is Phil Fish
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
My Name Is Luke
Member
This actually just inspired me to watch Indie Game: The Movie on Netflix just now. The video in the OP was really interesting, even though I don't really hate on Fish as much as a lot of the gaming audience does.
twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
That describes me. He was going on and on about the Xbox One reveal, and I snarked about how he was a one hit wonder. I've regretted that ever since.
I'll watch this later.
You don't get paid by a mysterious money printing machine. The consumer plays the role of understanding the pros and cons of both positions, without a bias towards benefit for the content creator or a bias towards the game publisher (not developer, the developer almost never has any say.) The consumer is the one who is watching videos on Youtube, and the consumer is the one you want to sell your game to. I don't want greedy draconian publishers trying to scam my favorite content creators out of the money they get for doing creative work. If you want my money get me to buy your game. It is a literally completely one sided issue.
The big content creators who actively oppose the idea of sharing revenue are motivated by money, it is their job. The big publishers who support the idea of effectively stealing ad revenue from the content creators are motivated by money, they think they are losing money or being devalued by having videos of their thing on Youtube and they want the money they are
n't
One is fairly making money off of a creative work, the other is pure fucking greed. You ask what role the consumers play in all this, and although they play a huge roll by providing 100% of the revenue to both the publisher and the content creator, it doesn't really matter, because the content creator is protected by rights and laws. If you try and fuck the content creator by cutting their profits, in the end you are just fucking the consumer. If you seriously want to bend the community over the counter this bad as an indie developer, I truly sincerely hope you never achieve even moderate success, because if you hate your customer you don't deserve a penny, which happens to tie directly into this thread about Phil Fish being an asshole.
Ingueferroque
Banned
The dude made Fez. This video brushes that off as a happy accident. Wow.
The video is just contrasting Phil Fish's attitude that Fez is the second coming of christ.
Solidsoul
Banned
I think this thread is almost as much of an experiment as the video itself was.
When someone is cast in a positive light, or at least in a way you can relate to you get more positive feedback.
In this thread I see a lot of people saying they never had a problem with him or that they understand him, these are the kinds of things I haven't seen in the standard Phil Fish threads.
My own perception was that he wasn't a bad dude until Marcus Beer said something I completely agreed with, at that point I jumped on the hate bandwagon because I was disappointed with how Phil handled being spoken of negatively by Marcus Beer. Now, sitting here after watching this video I start to think, there really is a lot more to a thought process and most people (including myself) can probably go a long way towards improving their outlook.
More of these kinds of videos please, I want to be a smarter person!
When someone is cast in a positive light, or at least in a way you can relate to you get more positive feedback.
In this thread I see a lot of people saying they never had a problem with him or that they understand him, these are the kinds of things I haven't seen in the standard Phil Fish threads.
My own perception was that he wasn't a bad dude until Marcus Beer said something I completely agreed with, at that point I jumped on the hate bandwagon because I was disappointed with how Phil handled being spoken of negatively by Marcus Beer. Now, sitting here after watching this video I start to think, there really is a lot more to a thought process and most people (including myself) can probably go a long way towards improving their outlook.
More of these kinds of videos please, I want to be a smarter person!
Then you have a selective memory. Speaking for myself, my views of him have been consistent.
Same here. I've never hated Fish himself or found every one of his views disagreeable and wrong, but I still think he's kind of an ass.
On the whole, though, I never really bothered to give him much attention. I just don't believe he's that relevant.
Solidsoul
Banned
I wasn't calling out everybody, I'm just sure there are some.
Maybe I do have a selective memory, this video has made me open to other people interpreting the way I react.
mullet2000
Member
Utterly fantastic video, he put how I've felt about Phil Fish for years so much better then I ever could. And then taught me more that I never actually considered!
I'm glad some people who "hated" Phil Fish are considering the argument being made in this video. Not that liking Phil Fish is necessarily "right", but there's certainly more to him and his fame than most people initially consider.
I'm glad some people who "hated" Phil Fish are considering the argument being made in this video. Not that liking Phil Fish is necessarily "right", but there's certainly more to him and his fame than most people initially consider.
foolishoptimist
Member
I think you need to watch the video again.
SeanNoonan
Member
This.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I didn't even know we were supposed to hate him.
SeanNoonan
Member
I share the same opinion on this subject, and hope (I think I heard) YouTube has put something in place for it.
Not sure what you're getting at... the video explicitly doesn't say otherwise.
That's a really loaded statement. I don't want scamming going on either, but I don't think it's a scam to say "I made this thing, so you can't share it with others unless we reach an agreement about how you do so."
It's two-sided because both benefit from the video and both had to put work into making the video happen. How much work went into the game, and how much work went into putting the video and its audience together weighs into how much leverage each side has, as well as by how much each side is benefiting from the video. It's not in any way one-sided.
You're using more loaded language here. By spinning the roles as "publisher" and "content creator", you make it sound like the video uploaders are doing the lion's share of the work, thus deserving all of the ad revenue. Phil Fish worked on Fez daily for over four years. How long does it take to put up a few videos of you playing the game*?
I know I'm biased, but perhaps consider that you are too. Perhaps consider that you're siding with the "content creators", the video makers. You don't see game devs going away, so you're not interested in seeing their dues paid. But you are scared of your favorite "content creator" going away, so you want to make sure he/she gets his/her videos' ad revenue.
*I know this is generalizing. Some people, like Chris "Campster" Franklin, have very excellent videos that do more than just demonstrate the game, and I try to support these people where I can.
I love progressive thinking and different perspectives. Really great video that presented a very intriguing commentary on internet demeanor and psyche towards "hate" and "fame". I have only recently played the demo for Fez on psn and thought it was delightful. Will definitely be picking it up for ps3/4/vita soon. Also, really enjoyed Indie game the movie. Never understood the hate for Phil even though he makes douchey comments every now and
. I also like Marcus Beer too so I don't really have a dog in the fight.
again like we all do
dam
the video uses the infatuation with Fish as a way to talk about internet fame in general, this new thing that ppl who use the internet kinda fell into lockstep with in a way that they couldn't control, whether it was participating through it via social media, or clicking on some clickbait article about some non-controversy, etc.
rly into the idea of the spreading of fast information resulting in new collective ways of irrationally shitting on people.
the video uses the infatuation with Fish as a way to talk about internet fame in general, this new thing that ppl who use the internet kinda fell into lockstep with in a way that they couldn't control, whether it was participating through it via social media, or clicking on some clickbait article about some non-controversy, etc.
rly into the idea of the spreading of fast information resulting in new collective ways of irrationally shitting on people.
Yep, my thoughts exactly. The internet as a media service is a whole different beast that we're still getting used to. Really excellent video.
Nah, Phil Fish is a total dickhead, I don't hate the 'concept' of him, I think he's an asshole as a person. Did that come off right? I understood the nickelback thing completely but when he started applying it to fish it flew over my head, I was pretty sure that people hated him a few years back because he was regularly being a vocal idiot, and not because they hated what he 'stood' for or the 'concept' of him. Weird video.
The guy is a dick and goes out of his way, to be a dick. I feel like this video ignores a lot of that.
The guy is a dick and goes out of his way, to be a dick. I feel like this video ignores a lot of that.
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
I've always considered hateful comments on the internet to be somewhat annoying. The person people accuse of being a dick, jerk or asshole have no way to defend themselves and are only judged by a small portion of their actions. Yet, people are so fast in entering a thread or comment on a story.
I don't get why people have to be so mean to other people. While I might not tell people who insult me to go fuck themselves I can really understand if you do. So, I don't hold the "choke on my dick" or "compare your life ot mine and go kill yourself" against him. The second being a great Bender joke so you can tell he wasn't serious just infusing his comment with some hyperbole.
And even if a person is an asshole he's still a creative person with a family and his life. No man is such an asshole that he deserves to be assulted by the massive anonymous internet mob. People who do their drive-by comments with the "Phil Fish is a dick" or "Druckmann forced them out" is making the internet a worse place.
Have you met him? How much time spent with him do you think is required to make that judgement?
I think what you mean to say is: "From my limited exposure of Phil Fish from various biased reporting on the internet and from not speaking with him directly I've come to the conclusion that that image of him is a total dickhead". Did that ocme off right?
I don't get why people have to be so mean to other people. While I might not tell people who insult me to go fuck themselves I can really understand if you do. So, I don't hold the "choke on my dick" or "compare your life ot mine and go kill yourself" against him. The second being a great Bender joke so you can tell he wasn't serious just infusing his comment with some hyperbole.
And even if a person is an asshole he's still a creative person with a family and his life. No man is such an asshole that he deserves to be assulted by the massive anonymous internet mob. People who do their drive-by comments with the "Phil Fish is a dick" or "Druckmann forced them out" is making the internet a worse place.
Have you met him? How much time spent with him do you think is required to make that judgement?
I think what you mean to say is: "From my limited exposure of Phil Fish from various biased reporting on the internet and from not speaking with him directly I've come to the conclusion that that image of him is a total dickhead". Did that ocme off right?
Pegasus Actual
Member
It doesn't matter if Let's Plays cause fewer people to buy a game or not. The guy who spoiled me on "The Sixth Sense" and prevented me from buying a ticket to go see it doesn't owe Bruce Willis a spit-shine of his bald head. I have no idea why anyone would have the mindset in erring on the side against fair use rights. It's kind of disturbing.
The video from the OP wasn't particularly interesting or well thought out, pretty much everything in it was obliterated in ExFalsoQuodlibet's post, kudos for going to the effort.
Phil Fish is a bit of a dick, and he's easy to troll. It's a bad combination. Even if he never achieved indie game fame he'd probably still be 'that guy' who is prone to random message board meltdowns. If anything, the thing with the Japanese dev at that conference is even worse than it sounds when you watch the video.
Fez was an OK game that I never bothered to finish. It was cute and kind of clever, but once I realized what was going on with the clock puzzle, I decided I was out. I found that puzzle design in particular to be kind of insulting. And the required backtracking in general was tedious enough to where I had no interest in continuing.
The video from the OP wasn't particularly interesting or well thought out, pretty much everything in it was obliterated in ExFalsoQuodlibet's post, kudos for going to the effort.
Phil Fish is a bit of a dick, and he's easy to troll. It's a bad combination. Even if he never achieved indie game fame he'd probably still be 'that guy' who is prone to random message board meltdowns. If anything, the thing with the Japanese dev at that conference is even worse than it sounds when you watch the video.
Fez was an OK game that I never bothered to finish. It was cute and kind of clever, but once I realized what was going on with the clock puzzle, I decided I was out. I found that puzzle design in particular to be kind of insulting. And the required backtracking in general was tedious enough to where I had no interest in continuing.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
The same thing happened to me with Randy Pitchford from Gearbox Software.
Once the scandal about Aliens:CM broke (outsourced to a shoddy dev, spending SEGA'S funds on BL2 instead, lieing about practically every aspect of the game, etc.) I tweeted my displeasure with Aliens. He then blocked me.
He was pretty angry with everyone tweeting him how disappointeding Aliens was and just started blocking everyone who mentioned Aliens. I feel bad for anyone who paid $60 for that game.
Morphine_OD
Banned
Phil Fish is just one of them creator dudes who has a talent, but is a total douche. Thankfully you don't have to like a person to enjoy his creations.
I'm a little taken aback by this. Are you seriously saying I have to know someone personally in order for me to call them a dick? I'm sorry I didn't grow up with the dude but being a fool on social media and having a vitriol relationship with a business partner while coming off as a narcissist kinda makes you look like a dick. But I'm sure if I took him out to dinner I would find out he's actually a really nice guy who just likes to explode over message boards and tell people to choke on his dick instead of criticizing his work.
Did you like Fez? Great if you did. You didn't? Oh you can do better?
Did that come off right?
Messofanego
Banned
Put this on watch later, thanks for the video.
PoemOfTheLastMoment
Banned
God, i can't stand this douche.
SlickShoes
Member
I still don't like the guy but a lot of people do hate him for no reason other than because he is Phil Fish.
This video goes out of the way to point out that he said that Anita Sarkeesian was a "hero". It contrasts this with the fact that he told someone to suck his dick and then to choke on it.
That is a rape joke, whatever way you want to look at it Phil Fish out there on the Internet making rape humour. If he is such a good guy and understands Anita's cause then he wouldn't reply to people using terms like that.
I get that it must be hard for him to deal with the barrage of abuse he gets for no good reason but just firing it back in this childish manner helps no one. The guy is in his late 20's and is/was a professional game developer but thinks it's OK to tell people to choke on his dick. I grew out of chat like that before I left my teens, you just can't fire abuse at people if you want to be taken seriously.
That's my opinion though and from all accounts even in this video Phil has always been socially awkward and sort of abusive to others on the internet, because he got slightly famous it attracted people that were most abusive than him to fire ridiculous statements back and forth endlessly until he finally realised there was no way he could win and left the internet.
This video goes out of the way to point out that he said that Anita Sarkeesian was a "hero". It contrasts this with the fact that he told someone to suck his dick and then to choke on it.
That is a rape joke, whatever way you want to look at it Phil Fish out there on the Internet making rape humour. If he is such a good guy and understands Anita's cause then he wouldn't reply to people using terms like that.
I get that it must be hard for him to deal with the barrage of abuse he gets for no good reason but just firing it back in this childish manner helps no one. The guy is in his late 20's and is/was a professional game developer but thinks it's OK to tell people to choke on his dick. I grew out of chat like that before I left my teens, you just can't fire abuse at people if you want to be taken seriously.
That's my opinion though and from all accounts even in this video Phil has always been socially awkward and sort of abusive to others on the internet, because he got slightly famous it attracted people that were most abusive than him to fire ridiculous statements back and forth endlessly until he finally realised there was no way he could win and left the internet.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
I never got that way of thinking either. If I say I love to slap babies and the women shouldn't be able to vote, just because people haven't grown up with me, nor know me personally, they can't judge me by calling me an idiot? No, they have every and all right to say I'm a horrible human being! Impressions mean everything. If a person acts like a dick, others have the right to call them out on it. It's like life, you act like an asshole, you get your ass beat, plain and simple(because, for some strange reason, people don't like assholes... go figure!). Only difference, the internet shields people from doing that. Don't change the fact, people loath arrogance and jerks. Always have, always will.
Lord British
Member
This is really reaching. It was a shitty thing to say, but not "rape humour" by any stretch of mind.
Great video, the hate Fish gets is really unreal.
I hope that he won't be destroyed by all of this. I have experienced a similar scenario in a much smaller scale, and it affected me a great deal.
I can't even imagine how this must weigh on him.
People on the Internet (on gaf, too) should realize that there is a human being behind that Twitter handle. I'm really disgusted by a lot of the shit flung at him.
I hope that he won't be destroyed by all of this. I have experienced a similar scenario in a much smaller scale, and it affected me a great deal.
I can't even imagine how this must weigh on him.
People on the Internet (on gaf, too) should realize that there is a human being behind that Twitter handle. I'm really disgusted by a lot of the shit flung at him.
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
I'm actually saying that you shouldn't call anyone a dick, regardless of them being it. It's worse if you don't know the person and you don't let them defend themselves. Then it's just vitriol. And that's bad. Internet has too many people spreading this hatred that it's up to all of us to stop it. Call it out when we see it. Sure, think that he's a dick but try not to post it. It just makes things worse for everyone nothing good can come of it.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Of course to some degree people target him because he's "famous" and considered "special". Again that's the answer to your question. You answered it yourself. Some people will target you because of that.
But you and Phil need to ask yourself why other famous people in the same medium like Kojima don't get the same hate, but another well known developer (David Jaffe) gets the same amount of hate as Phil does.
Ask youself why? Why do guys like Jaffe and Fish get so much hated comments on the internet? The answer is obvious and you shouldn't be surprised. And I LOVE Jaffe, but even I can recognize when he says something to someone that's harsh he's going to get hated on for it. You just can't talk to people anyway you want and expect no backlash.
Freedom of speech is just that. You are free to say what you want and the outside world on the internet have the freedom to respond to you.
frozencool
Neo Member
So you realize, that that only allows people who are dicks to keep on trucking along being dicks because no one actually calls them out on it? Let's say I make a super awesome game. Let's say at my award's speech for whatever award I get, I unabashedly declare I am the hottest shit you will ever see in the game's industry, everyone's dick is smaller than mine, and that blacks shouldn't vote. I'm of the mind that I should be called out on it, but in your perfect world I get to keep on trucking, just making life more difficult for everyone else. If someone is being a dick, they should be called out on being a dick. Putting your head down and hoping that they go away doesn't make these people go away, they just keep getting more and more extreme as the silence justifies their behavior even more.
But... IS Phil Fish a dick?
You see, the problem here is we have two different opposing schools of thought on what Phil Fish is. To people that are empathetic to him, they go with the idea that Fish only responds in such a way as a defensive mechanism to abuse. To those that dislike Fish, they tend to believe that Fish is an asshole to begin with and comments like "Compare my life to yours and kill yourself" or "Suck on my dick. Choke on it" were going to come out in some way, shape, or form because... Phil Fish is an asshole, or at least they think so.
A main issue though, is that the truth doesn't lie somewhere in the middle. The truth just isn't actually there. We don't know if Phil Fish is really a dick. We don't know him personally after all, as many have said. Yet many seem to forget that the lack of concrete info does not confirm the opposite. We may not know if he's a dick, but we also don't know if he's NOT a dick. Once again, we don't know THAT either. Maybe Phil Fish runs an orphanage in Africa, maybe Phil Fish is an actual pisspot who hates gamers, we don't know either and can't confirm either.
All we can see is what Phil Fish left behind: A pretty good game and a history of inflammatory comments. At this point, as demonstrated by the video it all becomes your own personal opinion and I think it's these bigger questions that need to be answered. I think these questions are more about the bigger 'concept' of Phil Fish as opposed to the idea of an indie who didn't deserve his success or being famous wrong.
Simply put, are you willing to let someone say whatever they like so long as their body of work is good? Does them being this talented justify the attitude? At what point does the attitude outstrip the talent? Does it ever?
Now personally speaking, I don't like how Phil Fish would respond to insults. It disappoints me that he has this great sea of talent within him, and also the drive to make it into something, but does so poorly when confronted with adversity outside himself. There are so many other indies who take the high road, like Zoe Quinn of Depression Quest. She gets hatred and bile spat at her in a rate not unlike Fish, but Zoe has always turned away from getting down into the dumps of Twitter and squabbling with her haters, she takes the high road and lets the work speak for itself. I attribute this to Zoe Quinn having an extremely strong sense of character to match her talent with Depression Quest, a quality I find hard to see in Phil Fish.
At the end of the day, for me, I find Phil Fish to have responded in a manner that was not only completely unprofessional, but completely unneccessary. Phil Fish does not need to tell people to go kill themselves, he should have let Fez selling 1 million copies do that. Phil Fish does not need to tell people to suck his dick, he should have let Fez winning numerous awards say that FOR him. If he WAS going to snark back at haters about it, he could have done it in so many different ways that would portray him at least a little bit better. Personally, I think he was talented enough to give any hatred a simple of reply of "Made Fez. Sold a million. Your move." which would have been curt, simple, and brimming with confidence. Instead he has to tell someone to go kill themselves, and sinks himself to the level of the internet trolls he hates so much.
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