digoutyoursoul
Member
He gets some terrible abuse though, he needs to learn to stop responding to gutter talk
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This is Phil Fish
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
He gets some terrible abuse though, he needs to learn to stop responding to gutter talk
And why did Adam Orth got even more hate than Phil Fish when he didn't insult anyone? I'll tell you, because in our society its wrong to go against popular opinions, because as I said before people think that it is ok to bully famous people.
Besides, I didn't see Phil Fish go on rampage and insulting everybody in first place, people insulted him because he's famous and they think that he has to be punished for being egocentric and arrogant. From my point of view he was just defending himself from these people and why is that wrong? Why can't famous people be at the same level of "normal" people? Why do people feel like its is ok to insult someone famous but is not ok for them to reply back?
And just for you information, freedom of speech right doesn't cover cyber bullying, defamation and harrassment.
DassoBrother
Member
Did we really never get Jason DeGroot's side of the story after the Indie Game: The Movie debacle? If so, that's very disappointing. I would assume someone would've made an interesting feature on the "true" story of Fez. Not saying that DeGroot would be the final word on the matter but now I'm curious to hear the story from the other side.
Video is well put together though, I especially think the comparison to Nickelback is valuable. No one really hates Nickelback's music that much more than any other boring sounding band but it's more upsetting that they are popular and you hear them on the radio.
Maybe it's worth mentioning too that I never hated Phil Fish and was really upset when Fez II was cancelled. I was surprised by his comments on Japanese games but then learned about the context and the discussion which followed his inflammatory remarks and could see that there was value in what he was saying even if on first impression it sounded like he just hated modern Japanese games.
Video is well put together though, I especially think the comparison to Nickelback is valuable. No one really hates Nickelback's music that much more than any other boring sounding band but it's more upsetting that they are popular and you hear them on the radio.
Maybe it's worth mentioning too that I never hated Phil Fish and was really upset when Fez II was cancelled. I was surprised by his comments on Japanese games but then learned about the context and the discussion which followed his inflammatory remarks and could see that there was value in what he was saying even if on first impression it sounded like he just hated modern Japanese games.
jacksepticeye
Member
Very good video. I must admit I sort of fell for the hatred towards him with not much reason to. He has said some pretty ridiculous shit though but haven't we all?
I think people hate him more because his personality online has very few redeeming qualities (though none of us know him personally). He's very outspoken and people who hate him hate him even MORE for that kind of attitude. People dislike cockiness and bravado and over confidence, they usually like to try and take that person down a peg or two. It's usually based on very little
I think people hate him more because his personality online has very few redeeming qualities (though none of us know him personally). He's very outspoken and people who hate him hate him even MORE for that kind of attitude. People dislike cockiness and bravado and over confidence, they usually like to try and take that person down a peg or two. It's usually based on very little
I'm in the same boat as you, I always though Phil was a dick for no reason. I watched Indie Game: The Movie and he didn't really come off as an asshole in there so I didn't understand why people thought he sucked. This video made a great point. Phil isn't a bad guy he just needs to adjust the way he talks on social media and in general really, a little bit of finesse if you will. That would take away a lot of the shit he gets thrown at him I'm sure.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Fil Phish is one of my favorite internet personalities. You never know what he's gonna do next. He's like the Shia LaBouf of game developers.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Yeah. Sucks. Especially since it looks like it was deleted and not just made protected. Boo, Phil. Boo.
That video was informative. I didn't know his former partner, who was kept secret by the Indie Game movie, had come out and made himself known since then.
So long, Fish, and thanks for all the memories.
Cato the Censor
Member
I think what we should take away from this is that
- Phil Fish should continue to make games but don't reactivate his Twitter account.
- Phil Fish should clearly state that monetizing his games with videos is not OK. Then proper Let's Players won't do it. And he can go after them i they do.
Bethesda just has clearly stated that making videos using their games and monetizing that is OK to them. Many other developers clearly state if this is allowed or not. This is how you do it. There does not have to be any drama involved.
Also, producing videos can be a job, and making ad revenue off of those videos can, too. If the owners of all IP that is used for the video is OK with that, of course. Not just for the game (if you make gameplay videos), but also for artwork, music etc.
- Phil Fish should continue to make games but don't reactivate his Twitter account.
- Phil Fish should clearly state that monetizing his games with videos is not OK. Then proper Let's Players won't do it. And he can go after them i they do.
Bethesda just has clearly stated that making videos using their games and monetizing that is OK to them. Many other developers clearly state if this is allowed or not. This is how you do it. There does not have to be any drama involved.
Also, producing videos can be a job, and making ad revenue off of those videos can, too. If the owners of all IP that is used for the video is OK with that, of course. Not just for the game (if you make gameplay videos), but also for artwork, music etc.
General_Frags
Member
He's made one game right? Fez. If money's really tight for him, you know he could just make another game, you know just saying Phil you might want to look into that.
I actually really like Phil. He came off a little whiny in Indie Game The Movie, but there were also quite a few scenes where he seemed genuinely likeable and relatable. He actually reminds me of a friend of mine (Phil is slightly more outspoken though), who coincidentally is going to school for game development.
I think Phil gets a lot more shit than he deserves. I believe the video said something similar to this, but it's like the hate with him just became a never ending circle. Someone would say something mean to him, he'd retort in kind, which would piss a few more people off, who would further piss him off, etc.
Obviously I think that he could have been a bit more tactful with the way he handled himself, but I also think the way he was treated by the community had a good deal to do with the that poor handling of himself.
I think Phil gets a lot more shit than he deserves. I believe the video said something similar to this, but it's like the hate with him just became a never ending circle. Someone would say something mean to him, he'd retort in kind, which would piss a few more people off, who would further piss him off, etc.
Obviously I think that he could have been a bit more tactful with the way he handled himself, but I also think the way he was treated by the community had a good deal to do with the that poor handling of himself.
Messofanego
Banned
Finally watched this, excellent video essay.
Randy Boy is gonna have to own up to Aliens, eventually. He'll be forced to when the inevitable Borderlands 3 press tour comes around.
Great video. Really breaks down fame and how people love to hate the idea of things etc. So I can agree with the overall premise that the HATE Phil Fish got was aimed at something larger (more what he represented). I also like the part where he talks about the right and wrong ways of being famous. Or rather, what we expect from people that become famous.
I still feel though that ultimately, to a degree, famous people ARE deprived of speaking their mind. I think this goes towards companies as well. When you have an audience or consumer base, you pretty much have to always be weary of that. And the reality is, you can't please everyone. And you are bound to make someone angry at some point. So you are almost limited to what you can and can't say.
It's for this reason why, if you work for a major company, you can't go on Twitter and start going on rants that piss people off. Even if it's free speech, and you are just voicing your opinion, people associate you with the company you work for (and by association with this company), you have a bigger following/audience. I am by no means arguing this is morally right. I think regardless of who you are, you have the right to say whatever the hell you want. The problem is, when you are trying to sell a product, or represent a company, then your free speech is also open to the criticism and backlash of those that don't agree with it.
SO basically, I don't think Phil deserved the hate he got. But he also wasn't very good at being famous (in the sense that, he had no filter or didn't mix well with his audience). I'm not saying Fish is wrong here. Just, it's a reality. It's a reality that when you have an audience and consumer base, what you say can impact your product or image. And when you have that many people listening to your words, then you always risk backlash. Again, not saying that is right or fair. But it's how it is.
I still feel though that ultimately, to a degree, famous people ARE deprived of speaking their mind. I think this goes towards companies as well. When you have an audience or consumer base, you pretty much have to always be weary of that. And the reality is, you can't please everyone. And you are bound to make someone angry at some point. So you are almost limited to what you can and can't say.
It's for this reason why, if you work for a major company, you can't go on Twitter and start going on rants that piss people off. Even if it's free speech, and you are just voicing your opinion, people associate you with the company you work for (and by association with this company), you have a bigger following/audience. I am by no means arguing this is morally right. I think regardless of who you are, you have the right to say whatever the hell you want. The problem is, when you are trying to sell a product, or represent a company, then your free speech is also open to the criticism and backlash of those that don't agree with it.
SO basically, I don't think Phil deserved the hate he got. But he also wasn't very good at being famous (in the sense that, he had no filter or didn't mix well with his audience). I'm not saying Fish is wrong here. Just, it's a reality. It's a reality that when you have an audience and consumer base, what you say can impact your product or image. And when you have that many people listening to your words, then you always risk backlash. Again, not saying that is right or fair. But it's how it is.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
dickgumshoe
Member
I can't say I was a fan of Phil Fish, neither his behaviour nor the game Fez. Seeing him dismiss all of Japans games as crap was kind of shocking and unbelievable. It certainly doesn't give a good impression.
Considering that he seemed to be sensitive to the crap thrown his way, it probably wasn't quite wise of him to act the way he did. That doesn't mean that excuses the insults he got.
Didn't he just say some very dumb things about the XBox One? I guess you could call that insulting to the customers, but it's not the same level.
Considering that he seemed to be sensitive to the crap thrown his way, it probably wasn't quite wise of him to act the way he did. That doesn't mean that excuses the insults he got.
Didn't he just say some very dumb things about the XBox One? I guess you could call that insulting to the customers, but it's not the same level.
Sweet Billy did nothing wrong!
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
He insulted an entire city IIRC.
Sweet Billy is my username in Clash of the Titans. Its been working well.
Surprisingly, he didn't actually do that. He said that their games suck (which was an absolutely stupid thing to say) but then went on to mention some Japanese games he likes, and singled out what he doesn't like from other Japanese games.
If he never said those 3 words, we would have had the headline "Phil Fish thinks Skyward Sword sucks" instead.
What I want to know is don't people bring up Jonathan Blow. What he said in that same event was far worse in my opinion. He said Japanese games were joyless husks, among other things.
. Those are the laws of equilibrium at play..Are you talking about this?
How can that be considered an insult? Other than taking his comment out of context because of irrational hate, how is that insulting?
Are you talking about this?
How can that be considered an insult? Other than taking his comment out of context because of irrational hate, how is that insulting?
You really don't understand how that could be perceived as an insult? First of all, he comes off as incredibly condescending towards people who live in rural areas. And, when you consider all of his posts, he says people should stop complaining about always online because everyone is always online, and when presented with examples of people who are not in fact always online he outright dismisses the argument as if to say "those people don't matter."
So yeah, people took offense to that.
Edit: And that's not even getting into the fact that he was perceived as a representative of his company, which was the real reason he got so much hate.
Perception? It was right in his bio. He was asking for it.
No doubt he was dumb about the whole thing. If your twitter account mentions where you work, then don't say anything on twitter you wouldn't say directly to your boss.
I only said "perceived" to counter the inevitable response of "but he is not Microsoft, he's a person and free speech blah blah." It doesn't really matter if he was intending to represent Microsoft, because people thought we was representing them, therefore he was representing them.
Pegasus Actual
Member
You've got to be kidding. Phil Fish went off in the most insulting tone possible. Jonathan Blow was the one that started talking about specific design issues, and Japanese games that he liked to some extent. And he reiterated the point that not all Japanese games are like that, but that it's a bad trend comparable to FPS soldier guy in western design. Fish piggybacked off Blow's design comments and someone's comment that Street Fighter 4 was good, and that's about it.
Let's players do literally 100% of the work it takes to Let's play a game, and deserve 100% of the money they currently get. Yes someone may have spent a lot of work on a game, that's why the game isn't fucking free. You are selling a game to people, and not giving them freedom to do what they want with it unless they pay you, that is fucking obnoxious.
Movie bootleggers do literally 100% of the work it takes to bootleg a movie, and deserve 100% of the money they currently get. Yes someone may have spent a lot of work on a movie, that's why the movie isn't fucking free. You are selling a movie to people, and not giving them the freedom to do what they want with it unless they pay you, that is fucking obnoxious.
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YouTube's rules don't allow monetization on straight play throughs of games (source), and even Pewdiepie's stance is that Fish should be able to stop people making ad revenue if he so chooses (source).
So you are basically saying that Let's Players are selling pirated copies of the games they broadcast. That is insane.
I'm basically saying that he picked a lousy way to argue. Of course it's not straight piracy, but trying to pretend like 100% of the LP video comes from the person who played and recorded the game is asinine. At the end of the day, games exist without Let's Plays, not the other way around.
Of course they do. Whether they sell or not, is another story.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
It's like the software engineer who makes a game engine or puts together an entire software application for a company and never gets his name in the headlines. I'd rather be that guy than Phil Fish. One can make themselves look foolish enough to get attention from a few million people. I mean there are millions of people who have their work go unnoticed. As long as someone gets paid and enjoys their life there really isn't a reason to look at this philosophical chain that the public opinion creates, unless that's what you're seeking in life.
It all feels so shallow. Are we encouraging future architects with this? Someone should just write a book and sell it.
It all feels so shallow. Are we encouraging future architects with this? Someone should just write a book and sell it.
Stopped reading here. If you're comparing people making creative works of playing video games to bootlegging you really have no concept of reality. You do not deserve one penny of what they earn.
Phil Fish is either a marketing moron or a marketing genius.
On the one hand, Fez has zero marketing budget. It's popularity is driven solely by word of mouth including, yes, let's play. Cutting off Lets Play is like punching yourself in the face for an indie game. I work in marketing, and earned impressions and word of mouth are the best, because they are free. Indie studios will never afford TV, and getting other people to get excited enough to tell other people about your game is always going to be way more important than the idea that maybe you deserve half of the ad revenue from a stream featuring your game. Very soon, there just won't be anybody willing to stream your game.
On the other hand, Phil is able to get his name in the press for doing nothing other than making controversial statements. Invariably, every article that mentions him, mentions Fez, which is another form of free advertising for a game that came out like 2 years ago.
On the one hand, Fez has zero marketing budget. It's popularity is driven solely by word of mouth including, yes, let's play. Cutting off Lets Play is like punching yourself in the face for an indie game. I work in marketing, and earned impressions and word of mouth are the best, because they are free. Indie studios will never afford TV, and getting other people to get excited enough to tell other people about your game is always going to be way more important than the idea that maybe you deserve half of the ad revenue from a stream featuring your game. Very soon, there just won't be anybody willing to stream your game.
On the other hand, Phil is able to get his name in the press for doing nothing other than making controversial statements. Invariably, every article that mentions him, mentions Fez, which is another form of free advertising for a game that came out like 2 years ago.
Chie Satonaka
Member
You aren't alone.
This was eye opening to me.
Yeah, I am sorry Phil, to have been harshly against your opinion on japanese games or ever voicing my problems with that stance to others. (Not that it happened many times, but still. I had a vastly uninformed point of view, and now I think that said viewpoint was false, invalid. )
Seems like every facet of our lives is like this: the less you care about what you do (and how you do it), the higher chance that you are just fucking others up. We need fucking wisdom boosts in large quantities.
Yeah, I am sorry Phil, to have been harshly against your opinion on japanese games or ever voicing my problems with that stance to others. (Not that it happened many times, but still. I had a vastly uninformed point of view, and now I think that said viewpoint was false, invalid. )
Seems like every facet of our lives is like this: the less you care about what you do (and how you do it), the higher chance that you are just fucking others up. We need fucking wisdom boosts in large quantities.
"Crazy" isn't the same thing. You can definitely conduct yourself well in daily life and still be a career asshole. But if you haven't or cannot see the humongous honking and flashing signs that he has put out for years and still continues to, then... I guess that would be your response!
Whipped Spartan
Member
Great video. I loved Fez just never liked how Phil treated his fans.
Wonder if Fez 2 is back on. It looks like polytron is co developing another game. Phil tweeted about it.
Wonder if Fez 2 is back on. It looks like polytron is co developing another game. Phil tweeted about it.
Can you explain this? As far as I remember, he just did a tongue-in-cheek joke about PCs. When you tell someone to fuck off after he told you to kill yourself, that's not really interacting with fans, is it?
dragonbane
Member
Great video. Largely applies to people like Molyneux and David Cage as well.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I believe David Cage deserves ever bit of criticism he deserves, but Ill leave that for another thread.
dragonbane
Member
He gets the same type of attention is all I was saying. When he says something positive like how important indie games are to him, that every art style can evoke emotions and you don't need an AAA budget, that he loved Journey and wish he could create something as inspiring as SotC it gets completely ignored. But the slightly controversial statements immediately get all the attention and fuel the hate. It's again a matter of perception that people want to have of a "famous" person.
I finally saw this, very interesting and well done. I myself kind of thought badly of the guy, though I felt that he might benefit from this long break despite not knowing him. It made me think about how fame works and I kind of feel sorry for the guy. Still haven't played Fez, I'll try to give it a shot some time. I think that the best approach would be to try to shrug it off the trash comments with kindness in the face of extreme hate.
Perhaps Phil can make a comeback some day with a game entirely different from Fez, though I don't know how he can rebound from being an infamous internet celebrity. Would be interesting to see some more comments from Canadian indie devs in my country about this video.
Perhaps Phil can make a comeback some day with a game entirely different from Fez, though I don't know how he can rebound from being an infamous internet celebrity. Would be interesting to see some more comments from Canadian indie devs in my country about this video.
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