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[Lemondish]

Clearly people won't complain that they might not be able to do those raids at all. People who play at different times than their friends, for example.

I mean why would they want to try it in a matchmaking-style raid...they might fail! Clearly better to simply be locked out of doing that content at all, unless they can do their own matchmaking by approaching random people in the hub and sending them messages, or using an outside forum like GAF to try and get together. Way, way better than simply being randomly tossed together with people by some in-game system.

If only there was some method by which like minded gamers could band together into a cohesive social group. Perhaps we could name them clans.

Imagine what they could accomplish then when said clans are populated with Guardians you meet on your adventures. Then you have a whole group of people to rely on for the hard content. A group of people who, through a shared membership in a player organized group, can band together in common purpose week in and week out. They could even play other modes or entire separate games together, gods help them.

Promoting social discovery is but one of a few key benefits a lack of matchmaking encourages. Adding matchmaking as an option simply because you don't want to go out and meet new people to play with seems like a silly reason to risk diluting the experience with the caliber of player that comes about when all accountability is removed.

 

[Chirotera]

Never knew the Raid was the sole game mode in Destiny.

Raid is end-game. Meaning once you do everything in the story/reach max rank and take the "extra step." And because of "the extra step" it isn't for everyone.

Having an end-game to work towards is just that, something to work towards. Take away that end-game from people and you'll have what, to do, exactly? Level up your alts I guess - that's how it was in WoW for guilds too small to tackle end game content until they added in LFR.

Either that or quit the game and move on to something else.

I fail to see how either option is good game design.

 

[GutZ31]

Just for education purposes, can any of our LegalGAF tell us how open voice chat across all modes could effect a games rating?

Basically, I am wondering if shooting for a Teen rating by limiting voice chat support to fireteams makes it easier for them to hit it or not.

Just trying to make sense out of a fluster cluck of people personally attacking each other over a game that isn't even out yet, and if there is a legitimate reason for the omitted "feature".

 

[Chirotera]

If only there was some method by which like minded gamers could make together into a cohesive social group. Perhaps we could name them clans.

Imagine what they could accomplish then when said clans are populated with Guardians you meet on your adventures. Then your have a whole group of people to rely on for the hard content. A group of people who, through a shared membership in a player organized group, can band together in common purpose week in and week out. They could even play other modes or entire separate games together, gods help them.

Promoting social discovery is but one of a few key benefits a lack of matchmaking encourages.

Matchmaking also encourages social discovery. Hell, in WoW a lot of the friends I made came from random groups of people that weren't in my guild. You tackle the content together, make decent progress - and say hey, those chaps were pretty ok - maybe we can try it again with the same exact people?

Bam, friends made.

While being in a clan will also help joining a large clan and looking for people that way is really no different than having a system that can pair you up with people already built into the fabric of the game (which it already is for Strikes).

 

[Rafterman]

PUGS in WoW were not clearing content regularly until Wrath and even then that was only after Blizzard instituted time based nerfs to the content.

This is just straight up revisionist history. On Shattered Hand there were weekly pugs not a year into the game.

That's before TBC and a hell of a long time before Wrath.

 

[Metfanant]

If it was quick, easy and a positive experience to do so, people would do so.

My personal experience shows it not to be a positive experience. That's with clans, including GAF clans.

On the other hand I'm great at co-op, and my group of friends loves teamwork and tackling hard content together, but we can't hold to some strict schedule for gaming. We're parents and flex hours and work strange shifts. Two of us meet up semi-regularly, three on occasion and sometimes four, but it depends.

When we DO get together we want to tackle something tough, but telling us we either have to join a clan, or build an incredibly huge friends list purely for this game and hope that we all cross paths with the same schedule is as good as dropping a portcullis in front of this content.

We can get a few of us together and use matchmaking to fill the rest out though, and we've done so in other games, and we've succeeded because it is possible to work as a team with randoms.

I see how the exclusive nature of this mode could seem exciting for people who want to live their games, or treat it with the seriousness of a second job, but damnit, succeed or fail, I'd like to be able to tackle it for entertainment purposes. Its a game. Don't make the process of playing it into a chore.

Never knew the Raid was the sole game mode in Destiny.

Raid is end-game. Meaning once you do everything in the story/reach max rank and take the "extra step." And because of "the extra step" it isn't for everyone.

thats so not the point...if 10% of the people that buy Destiny even reach the lvl/gear that is required for such raids id be shocked in the first place...put the raids behind some sort of lvl/gear caps, whatever...make people earn the right to be there...

but me taking part in MM simply does NOTHING to negatively impact YOUR experience

 

[Jest Chillin]

Having an end-game to work towards is just that, something to work towards. Take away that end-game from people and you'll have what, to do, exactly? Level up your alts I guess - that's how it was in WoW for guilds too small to tackle end game content until they added in LFR.

Either that or quit the game and move on to something else.

I fail to see how either option is good game design.

The Endgame is more than just Raids. There are high level Strike playlists as well as Daily and Weekly Nightfall missions. Nightfall missions "award the highest level arcane gear in the game." There's also PvP for those that want to do that.

 

[pLow7]

I have no Problem with this, i've got enough Friends buying Destiny.

Though, i've got a Problem with Raids taking multiple Hours. Neither i nor my friends have the time to spent multiple Hours on playing One Game.

Wellp, i guess it should do without Raids, assuming they're all this long, which im not willing to believe yet. Hopefully this Game has enough Content apart of Raids in END-Game.

 

[Doombacon]

I would never want to do MM raids in Destiny because of my experiences with LFR in WoW.

I, and apparently Bungie, are concerned that having shitty experiences with MM players in a raid environment would discourage people from playing it as they had intended it be played. While it would probably be fine for some people I feel they have weighed that benefit against damaging the perceived value of a large portion of their end game content.

They may end up adding MM raids in the future but I doubt this was a decision they made lightly.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Is interesting how Bungie doesn't view Raids the same as they view Strikes or PvP. They don't want you to tackle it with random pugs (including random pugs from forums), and they don't appear to want you to casually hop into one as soon as you turn your console on. Seems like it'll take planning and coordinating with a dedicated team - whether it's your real life friends, in-game friends or regulars in a guild - to work out the best strategy to approach it. This may be inconvenient, but its as much an investment of time and social interaction as it is exclusive end-game content. It doesn't seem like a decision they'll compromise on, especially considering that there are already several other modes in the game (all with matchmaking) that are intentionally designed to be shorter and require less players. Raids also aren't the only end-game content.

I hope they improve the social communications to facilitate the team-building experience both in-game and out; nevertheless, having an idea of the kind of content they have in store, I'm going to wait and see how it pans out.

 

[Jest Chillin]

This is just straight up revisionist history. On Shattered Hand there were weekly pugs not a year into the game.

That's before TBC and a hell of a long time before Wrath.

Blizzard themselves have stated that Raid completion was extremely low in terms of total percentage of players. They cited this as one of their major reasons for LFR in the first place. It's not revisionist history at all.

 

[Orca]

If only there was some method by which like minded gamers could band together into a cohesive social group. Perhaps we could name them clans.

Imagine what they could accomplish then when said clans are populated with Guardians you meet on your adventures. Then you have a whole group of people to rely on for the hard content. A group of people who, through a shared membership in a player organized group, can band together in common purpose week in and week out. They could even play other modes or entire separate games together, gods help them.

Promoting social discovery is but one of a few key benefits a lack of matchmaking encourages. Adding matchmaking as an option simply because you don't want to go out and meet new people to play with seems like a silly reason to risk diluting the experience with the caliber of player that comes about when all accountability is removed.

You keep pushing that matchmaking = no accountability hot button like it means something. You think people going into a 45+ minute raid wouldn't try to actually finish it? I mean I've done an AWFUL lot of organized raids where people would magically be called away or develop connection issues AFTER the boss fight that held the item they wanted.

It's almost like 'accountability' is a personal thing, not really tied to how you were grouped together at all.

 

[Metfanant]

Not playing one activity =/= not playing the game they paid for. Nightfall Missions and PvP are said to be able to reward the same/similar level of items that Raids do. Not to mention Story Missions, Strikes while leveled and high level Strike Playlists.



The number of people who will play the game has no relevance to the discussion. The number of people who play the game who didn't but it to play Crucible still have a ton of content to play, including content that offers similar rewards as Raids without the same level of effort or commitment. The number of people that get to a level high enough to take part in a Raid again has no relevance.

and none of what you said is impacted negatively by matchmaking...

If only there was some method by which like minded gamers could band together into a cohesive social group. Perhaps we could name them clans.

Imagine what they could accomplish then when said clans are populated with Guardians you meet on your adventures. Then you have a whole group of people to rely on for the hard content. A group of people who, through a shared membership in a player organized group, can band together in common purpose week in and week out. They could even play other modes or entire separate games together, gods help them.

Promoting social discovery is but one of a few key benefits a lack of matchmaking encourages. Adding matchmaking as an option simply because you don't want to go out and meet new people to play with seems like a silly reason to risk diluting the experience with the caliber of player that comes about when all accountability is removed.

and yet, your experience will not be negatively impacted AT ALL by including match making...

because since you are such an elite MMO gamer...and you are surely on at least your third round of background checks for all the resumes that have been submitted to join your Destiny clan...you, yourself will have no problem filling out a 6 man fire team to tackle the raids...

so you will never have to deal with the "diluted" experience that matchmaking brings...

so please....explain to me how ME being able to use matchmaking if i need to...impacts YOU or YOUR experience...AT ALL?

 

[Lemondish]

I think this discussion has run its course so I'm going to head to bed confident in the belief that Bungie is making the best decision here. This single activity is the only part of group content that does not include a method of matchmaking. As such, I'm certain that the lack of accountability that comes from being randomly matched with players you will never see again will be competing eliminated. A win for everyone except those who don't actually have the time or ability to do the content as currently intended in the first place.

 

[Kettch]

Not playing one activity =/= not playing the game they paid for. Nightfall Missions and PvP are said to be able to reward the same/similar level of items that Raids do. Not to mention Story Missions, Strikes while leveled and high level Strike Playlists.

Just want to point out that I don't care about loot at all in regards to this discussion. There could be a completely loot-less version with MM and I'd be fine with that. It's experiencing the content that I care about.

 

[Orca]

and none of what you said is impacted negatively by matchmaking...



and yet, your experience will not be negatively impacted AT ALL by including match making...

because since you are such an elite MMO gamer...and you are surely on at least your third round of background checks for all the resumes that have been submitted to join your Destiny clan...you, yourself will have no problem filling out a 6 man fire team to tackle the raids...

so you will never have to deal with the "diluted" experience that matchmaking brings...

so please....explain to me how ME being able to use matchmaking if i need to...impacts YOU or YOUR experience...AT ALL?

You'd have a chance at the elite loot and he wouldn't be special?

 

[David___]

but me taking part in MM simply does NOTHING to negatively impact YOUR experience

Never said it affected me. I'm against it because I don't want to see a dev compromise their vision for a single piece of content when there are many other things that can be easily hoped into if desired.

 

[Jest Chillin]

and none of what you said is impacted negatively by matchmaking...

That wasn't the point I was addressing in those comments, so of course it doesn't apply to matchmaking. Why are you being intentionally obtuse?

Just want to point out that I don't care about loot at all in regards to this discussion. There could be a completely loot-less version with MM and I'd be fine with that. It's experiencing the content that I care about.

You, yourself aren't concerned with loot. But you're attempting to speak for the population at large, so their concerns need to be considered.

 

[Doombacon]

This is just straight up revisionist history. On Shattered Hand there were weekly pugs not a year into the game.

That's before TBC and a hell of a long time before Wrath.

Successful pug raids did not happen on all, or even most servers in vanilla/TBC, and even on those servers that it did happen only a fraction of the actual server population was actually participating in them. Please do not take your personal history and use it as the model for everyone else's experiences.

 

[Orca]

Never said it affected me. I'm against it because I don't want a dev to compromise their vision for a singular piece of content when there are many other things that can be easily hoped into if desired.

Why would adding matchmaking compromise their vision? They can make it every bit as hard...the only thing that matchmaking changes is how people access it, opening things up for a lot more gamers than would otherwise have a shot at seeing it.

They don't have to "compromise their vision" unless excluding players is that vision.

Successful pug raids did not happen on all, or even most servers in vanilla/TBC, and even on those servers that it did happen only a fraction of the actual server population was actually participating in them. Please do not take your personal history and use it as the model for everyone else's experiences.

Yes, take Doombacon's instead.

 

[Metfanant]

That wasn't the point I was addressing in those comments, so of course it doesn't apply to matchmaking. Why are you being intentionally obtuse?

the whole point of this discussion is matchmaking. Why are you being intentionally elitist?[/QUOTE]

 

[amar212]

but me taking part in MM simply does NOTHING to negatively impact YOUR experience

I have read a damn metric ton of this thread and this is my conclusion:

People that are supportive to Bungie's decision to have Raids locked behind organized groups are not really *against* matchmaking.

They are more *afraid* how changing the plan would result with vocal minority issues on the social channels where casual players - let into the Raids through matchmaking - would somehow *demand* how particular mode is "broken", "impossible", "stupid", "whatever".

Thus - based on the experience from the other games that encountered similar issues in the past - those that are supportive of the current plan are sure how allowing matchmaking in the Raids would - in fact - negatively impact their experience because Bungie would be ultimately *forced* to nerf the Raids because of the vocal minority's backslash.

I do not have any true MMO experience to be able to weigh such position, but it seems reasonable to be feared about simply because something exactly the same like that happen in the game I was very fond of: Gran Turismo 5.

At the very beginning of GT5 online, Polyphony Digital introduced something called Seasonal Events. Those were online challenges (races), made with scrutinized restrictions which presented a great challenge for both driver and his car. Cars had to be carefully tuned for every particular challenge and in order to win the driver had to drive almost without a single mistake.

It was a serious challenge even for the most-experinced players.

Polyphony had to change it in matter of two weeks because of the backslash of the vocal minority.

I see the position TBH

 

[Kettch]

You, yourself aren't concerned with loot. But you're attempting to speak for the population at large, so their concerns need to be considered.

I'm just saying that pointing out how you can get top loot by doing other things in the game doesn't solve the problem of not being able to do this thing.

 

[NullPointer]

Just want to point out that I don't care about loot at all in regards to this discussion. There could be a completely loot-less version with MM and I'd be fine with that. It's experiencing the content that I care about.

I'm with you on this. Loot is great, but meaningless if the core gameplay isn't the star of the show. The idea of a multi-hour mission/area/whatever it is actually sounds much more interesting on a gameplay level than the game's story missions and strike missions.

 

[Lemondish]

That wasn't the point I was addressing in those comments, so of course it doesn't apply to matchmaking. Why are you being intentionally obtuse?




You, yourself aren't concerned with loot. But you're attempting to speak for the population at large, so their concerns need to be considered.

It serves his crusade to act the fool. The circle jerk has even begun, if you didn't notice.

It's a lost cause discussing this tonight.

 

[Jest Chillin]

the whole point of this discussion is matchmaking. Why are you being intentionally elitist?

I'm not being elitist at all. I've said, in this very thread, that I'm very liable to be in the group of players that doesn't end up geared for Raids or doesn't end up completing it.

I understand that Raids are difficult and not everyone will be able to clear them. I have zero problems with that just as I've had zero problems with that in any other games I've played that have Raids. Some games I've successfully Raided in. Others I haven't. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I'm just saying that pointing out how you can get top loot by doing other things in the game doesn't solve the problem of not being able to do this thing.

But there's nothing stopping you from attempting Raids. They haven't announced a gear check. They haven't announced a Time-Played check. The only stipulation is that you have to manually form a group of 6 players. That's it.

I 100% feel like Bungie needs to improve the ease in which players can form groups manually. I don't feel like matchmaking is the proper solution.

 

[Jest Chillin]

-edit: double post. sorry. ;/

 

[Metfanant]

Successful pug raids did not happen on all, or even most servers in vanilla/TBC, and even on those servers that it did happen only a fraction of the actual server population was actually participating in them. Please do not take your personal history and use it as the model for everyone else's experiences.

but the simple fact that they DID occur goes against what a whole lot of people are saying here...

Why would adding matchmaking compromise their vision? They can make it every bit as hard...the only thing that matchmaking changes is how people access it, opening things up for a lot more gamers than would otherwise have a shot at seeing it.

They don't have to "compromise their vision" unless excluding players is that vision.

it wouldnt compromise their vision at all....

I have read a damn metric ton of this thread and this is my conclusion:

People that are supportive to Bungie's decision to have Raids locked behind organized groups are not really *against* matchmaking.

They are more *afraid* how changing the plan would result with vocal minority issues on the social channels where casual players - let into the Raids through matchmaking - would somehow *demand* how particular mode is "broken", "impossible", "stupid", "whatever".

Thus - based on the experience from the other games that encountered similar issues in the past - those that are supportive of the current plan are sure how allowing matchmaking in the Raids would - in fact - negatively impact their experience because Bungie would be ultimately *forced* to nerf the Raids because of the vocal minority's backslash.

I do not have any true MMO experience to be able to weigh such position, but it seems reasonable to be feared about simply because something exactly the same like that happen in the game I was very fond of: Gran Turismo 5.

At the very beginning of GT5 online, Polyphony Digital introduced something called Seasonal Events. Those were online challenges (races), made with scrutinized restrictions which presented a great challenge for both driver and his car. Cars had to be carefully tuned for every particular challenge and in order to win the driver had to drive almost without a single mistake.

It was a serious challenge even for the most-experinced players.

Polyphony had to change it in matter of two weeks because of the backslash of the vocal minority.

I see the position TBH

i can SEE the position too...and understand your comparison to Seasonal Events...

BUT...the raids are still going to be absolutely bananas hard (apparently)...so lock them away behind lvl barriers...make people EARN the right to be there....

if Polyphony had hid Season Events behind the requirement that you have to complete say all the International A level events first and be a lvl 45+ driver...the "noobs" would have never even gotten there in the first place to complain...(im trying to remember the career structure of GT5, but i think you;ll get my point)

so...to use simple math...and i KNOW this is not how Destiny is set up, but im doing it to make a point....

if a game has a lvl scale from 0-50 and gear ratings from 0-100...and you make it ridiculously hard to get to those levels...and then say...well you cant even get into the raids without being a lvl 45 with gear 90 or better...then you have absolutely eliminated the VAST majority of players, and are only dealing with the seriously dedicated players...

i dont see how then allowing them to take part in MM so that they have A SHOT to participate in these events is as all a bad thing...

 

[Kettch]

But there's nothing stopping you from attempting Raids. They haven't announced a gear check. They haven't announced a Time-Played check. The only stipulation is that you have to manually form a group of 6 players. That's it.

I 100% feel like Bungie needs to improve the ease in which players can form groups manually. I don't feel like matchmaking is the proper solution.

Gear checks, time-played checks, those things are actually fine. They actually involve playing the game. Which is what I want to do. Not go play a social network simulator instead.

 

[bigbaldwolf86]

I 100% feel like Bungie needs to improve the ease in which players can form groups manually. I don't feel like matchmaking is the proper solution.

This is really what it comes down to. If there was proximity chat or text chat then it would be a lot easier for people to organise raid teams in the Tower. The central hub of the game is so unsocial lol.

 

[Rafterman]

Blizzard themselves have stated that Raid completion was extremely low in terms of total percentage of players. They cited this as one of their major reasons for LFR in the first place. It's not revisionist history at all.

Extremely low and "didn't happen" are two different things. Also keep in mind that an extremely low percentage in WoW terms is equal to most MMO games total, and certainly more than the raiders in those games. Wrath didn't come out until the end of 2008, there weekly PuG raids in 2005. I find it hard to believe that we had the only server in the game that was doing this at the time.

 

[Meneses]

While I understand the reasoning behind the decision, I'm not a fan of the restrictive nature of the raids.

 

[jaosobno]

I should also say that anyone using old-WoW as a basis for their argument on why there should be no raid matchmaking should probably realize that that series eventually added it in. There's a reason they did that. And it's basically the same reasoning that's being argued here.

To me, it makes no sense in this game and trying to make a comparison to WoW is a bit silly.

1. WoW had a built in guild system which made coordinating who does what, and when, much easier. Yes, Destiny has a similar clan system, but the big difference between the two is in ease of communication. I'm not even sure that you can easily communicate between clan members - whereas in WoW communication is as simple as typing in a command.

2. This game isn't WoW. Not only that but if Bungie has gone on record saying that they are NOT an MMO, then they've also done a poor job in designing their game. Because this design is completely that of an MMO. So, which is it Bungie?

3. The idea of finding five people to do the content might not be that difficult, but it's made much more so by the anti-social nature of the game. Most people are going to treat this like any other console FPS where talking is often more annoying than it is fun. Not only that but the game doesn't really do a lot to promote situations that require that kind of coordination.

4. Even with the difficult raids in WoW, that content would be conquered rather easily by the top guilds. Then, once strategies trickled down and become more common knowledge, it became a lot easier. Hell, in my own guild, which was fairly casual, we'd have a core of about 10 people in a group of 40 that had any idea as to what they were doing. The other 30 were a random hodgepodge of raiders, family, or friends, or people from other smaller guilds - and we still had success in the content. We obviously weren't breaking any speed running records, but it was there.

5. Matchmaking being in the game has no effect on people that do group up. None at all. If it's so hard to do this content then matchmaking will fail a lot to begin with until people realize what has to be done. The elite of the elite, during that time, will be stocked full of their gear that can make themselves feel better about themselves. Either way, there's really no effect on things as are.

6. How many older people have six friends, all into the same game, all available at the same time, that they can count on to be skilled enough to get through difficult content? Thus if the system implicitly requires you to hit up forums and coordinate with random people, what you're doing is little better than what you're actually going to get out of matchmaking.

7. In Bungie's own interviews they talk about the risk they are taking with this approach. They're aware that what they're doing isn't going to be well received. It won't take them long to back off from it.

8. If matchmaking is good enough for Strikes? Why include it at all for them, too? Why not make really hard three man strikes? Why match-make for some things but then not allow it for others? They already know the benefits of mm systems, so why ignore them for end level content?

These are just some of the reasons that I can think of as to why they should have it. Not having it severely dampens my excitement for the game.

10/10. All good points.

 

[Sojgat]

Not even having it as an option is pretty weak.

 

[jaosobno]

NOTHING IS FUCKING STOPPING YOU FROM DOING THE GODDAMN FUCKING CONTENT

Get 5 people together and go do it

Holy shit, this defeatist attitude of welp I won't be enjoying/doing it, I mean come the fuck on

95%? So your telling me, if Destiny sells 10 million copies, roughly 9.5 million players wont take the goddamn initiative after reaching the threshold to do said Raid, because there is no goddamn matchmaking?

Do you have a job? Do you have a family? Do you do other things but play games in your free time (you know, like hiking, riding a bike, going to a gym or any have other hobby)?

Are people in your friends list like you?

If you were in this situation, you would understand perfectly why so many are annoyed by this design decision. For people like me, getting 5 more friends in the same place at the same time is nigh impossible. It's not defeatist attitude, it's called fucking reality of a grown up with responsibilities.

I would simply like to enter a raid with randoms and actually have some fun. Coordinating 5 people for days in advance just to play an hour or two of a certain mode is not my idea of fun.

 

[Llyrwenne]

/!\ LONG-ASS POST /!\​

I think some people need to take a step back here.

There is nothing inherently wrong with having content in a game made for a specific kind of player, nor is it inherently wrong that that content is only accessible to the kind of player it is intended for.

Bungie has made it clear that this Raid will be a hard, multi-hour event that requires communication and planning, and you might want to spread it out over multiple sessions. You will want to do that with a group of people dedicated to finishing the Raid; you don't want to do that with randoms, who may or may not have headsets, may or may not be willing to communicate, may or may not speak your language, may or may not have just jumped into the Raid to 'see what it is' with no intention of finishing it, may or may not be there intent on trolling the rest of you, may or may not just completely suck, may or may not simply drop out mid-game, etc. Maybe you want to play the Raid for two hours, but two of the others drop out after just one hour, how will you manage that?

Not all content needs to be available to all players of all levels. If you are not willing or able to invest in getting a group of six people together ( and while there are things in Bungie's current way of doing this that need to be streamlined, that process of finding a group is nowhere near the massive undertaking some of you make it out to be ), then the Raid, from what we know of it at this moment, is simply not for you. That's fine. That's not elitism or not wanting you to play that content, it's just that that content was designed with another type of player in mind and matchmaking just wouldn't be a good fit for this specific kind of content.

There are just so many frustrations that potentially arise from this type of content and matchmaking.

You get matchmade with five other players that also use Arc-weapons? Good luck against this Arc-resistant boss! Oh, wait, Timmy has got to go for dinner, now you're down to five. Watch out John, there's a massive horde of enemies about to overwhelm you! Oh, well, John doesn't use his headset and can't hear us anyway. No, Emile, je ne parle pas français.

And on the technical side of things; how would the checkpoints even work? You get to a certain checkpoint and quit. Two days later, you want to pick up again, but the randoms you worked with earlier have progressed further or aren't online. Now the game would need to matchmake you with people looking for a match at the same time as you at the same checkpoint as you. That might lead to frustratingly long wait times, and all those new players have the chance of triggering one of the above frustrations again. You will need to set up communication again and establish whether they have a different approach than you, what gear they have, etc. That is not the experience Bungie wants you to have.

"But Bungie should let us try it out for ourselves!" is also a statement I do not understand being made here. It's not as if Bungie just sat there and suddenly thought "well, let's just throw matchmaking out of the window" for no reason. They probably did not make this decision lightly. They had the Raid play-tested, and made decisions based on that. They are game developers making a game design decision, they have absolutely no obligation to offer you options that they do not deem to fit their game or the content within it. Bungie made this Raid and thus know it's contents better than anyone else. They had it play-tested and made game design decisions based on the information they gathered and the type of player they made the content for, and they are in their right to do so.

To be clear, I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player.

/!\ LONG-ASS POST END /!\​

 

[amar212]

/!\ LONG-ASS POST /!\​

"But Bungie should let us try it out for ourselves!" is also a statement I do not understand being made here. It's not as if Bungie just sat there and suddenly thought "well, let's just throw matchmaking out of the window" for no reason. They probably did not make this decision lightly. They had the Raid play-tested, and made decisions based on that. They are game developers making a game design decision, they have absolutely no obligation to offer you options that they do not deem to fit their game or the content within it. Bungie made this Raid and thus know it's contents better than anyone else. They had it play-tested and made game design decisions based on the information they gathered and the type of player they made the content for, and they are in their right to do so.

Yeah, I also have this position

I simply do not believe how decision has been made as an "genius idea" during some morning coffee

 

[pieatorium]

/!\ LONG-ASS POST /!\​

To be clear, I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player.

/!\ LONG-ASS POST END /!\​

I'm not demanding anything, as soon as i find 5 other people who are half decent and fit my schedule I will be running through weekly with no problems. If there was ingame communication to help facilitate finding these people it would speed up the process and if there was ingame matchmaking to get even faster groups and find the people who are good at the content it would speed this up even more.

All i am doing in here is lamenting a terribly thought out social aspect of the game

 

[Griddlelol]

Do you have a job? Do you have a family? Do you do other things but play games in your free time (you know, like hiking, riding a bike, going to a gym or any have other hobby)?

Are people in your friends list like you?

If you were in this situation, you would understand perfectly why so many are annoyed by this design decision. For people like me, getting 5 more friends in the same place at the same time is nigh impossible. It's not defeatist attitude, it's called fucking reality of a grown up with responsibilities.

I would simply like to enter a raid with randoms and actually have some fun. Coordinating 5 people for days in advance just to play an hour or two of a certain mode is not my idea of fun.

QFT. If I have 1 other friend online with me it's a fucking miracle.
I don't want to spend an hour getting a group together to then have to quit half way through the 2 hour long raid because I have to make my family dinner.

 

[Llyrwenne]

I'm not demanding anything, as soon as i find 5 other people who are half decent and fit my schedule I will be running through weekly with no problems. If there was ingame communication to help facilitate finding these people it would speed up the process and if there was ingame matchmaking to get even faster groups and find the people who are good at the content it would speed this up even more.

All i am doing in here is lamenting a terribly thought out social aspect of the game

Key word; some of you. As goes for all my posts, they are not intended to be sweeping comments on any and all posts in a thread.

I definitely agree that Bungie needs to look at how they currently do things regarding organizing Fireteams with randoms and voicechat. Having to quit whatever you're doing and return to Orbit just to join a Fireteam is a chore. Having a section in the Tower where people could go to to make it clear that they are looking for Fireteam members for doing certain missions or Strikes or the Raid would be a great solution for some of it.

 

[Hitmeneer]

/!\ LONG-ASS POST /!\​

I think some people need to take a step back here.

There is nothing inherently wrong with having content in a game made for a specific kind of player, nor is it inherently wrong that that content is only accessible to the kind of player it is intended for.

Bungie has made it clear that this Raid will be a hard, multi-hour event that requires communication and planning, and you might want to spread it out over multiple sessions. You will want to do that with a group of people dedicated to finishing the Raid; you don't want to do that with randoms, who may or may not have headsets, may or may not be willing to communicate, may or may not speak your language, may or may not have just jumped into the Raid to 'see what it is' with no intention of finishing it, may or may not be there intent on trolling the rest of you, may or may not just completely suck, may or may not simply drop out mid-game, etc. Maybe you want to play the Raid for two hours, but two of the others drop out after just one hour, how will you manage that?

Not all content needs to be available to all players of all levels. If you are not willing or able to invest in getting a group of six people together ( and while there are things in Bungie's current way of doing this that need to be streamlined, that process of finding a group is nowhere near the massive undertaking some of you make it out to be ), then the Raid, from what we know of it at this moment, is simply not for you. That's fine. That's not elitism or not wanting you to play that content, it's just that that content was designed with another type of player in mind and matchmaking just wouldn't be a good fit for this specific kind of content.

There are just so many frustrations that potentially arise from this type of content and matchmaking.

You get matchmade with five other players that also use Arc-weapons? Good luck against this Arc-resistant boss! Oh, wait, Timmy has got to go for dinner, now you're down to five. Watch out John, there's a massive horde of enemies about to overwhelm you! Oh, well, John doesn't use his headset and can't hear us anyway. No, Emile, je ne parle pas français.

And on the technical side of things; how would the checkpoints even work? You get to a certain checkpoint and quit. Two days later, you want to pick up again, but the randoms you worked with earlier have progressed further or aren't online. Now the game would need to matchmake you with people looking for a match at the same time as you at the same checkpoint as you. That might lead to frustratingly long wait times, and all those new players have the chance of triggering one of the above frustrations again. You will need to set up communication again and establish whether they have a different approach than you, what gear they have, etc. That is not the experience Bungie wants you to have.

"But Bungie should let us try it out for ourselves!" is also a statement I do not understand being made here. It's not as if Bungie just sat there and suddenly thought "well, let's just throw matchmaking out of the window" for no reason. They probably did not make this decision lightly. They had the Raid play-tested, and made decisions based on that. They are game developers making a game design decision, they have absolutely no obligation to offer you options that they do not deem to fit their game or the content within it. Bungie made this Raid and thus know it's contents better than anyone else. They had it play-tested and made game design decisions based on the information they gathered and the type of player they made the content for, and they are in their right to do so.

To be clear, I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player.

/!\ LONG-ASS POST END /!\​

All content should be available to everyone. Everyone paid for the same content, or at least for the same opportunity. Regular level restrictions, as in most (MMO)RPG's, makes sense because the level difference with the creeps would be to large and the player would not stand any chance.. However, putting a 'friends-only' restriction is ridiculous. I mean, by this Bungie should add a warning or requirement on the box of the game: 'Requires at least 5 friends to play all content'?

Many people act it is some elite content, only intended for the elite and die-hards. But this is a minority. What about the majority of players. Shouldn't they have a chance to try it? Who cares that they maybe don't finish the raid and only get to kill one or two sub-bosses. They can still get loot from the game from the 'easier' content from the raids and at least have a challenge.
Furthermore, people act like pug's are always terrible. In Destiny you will have clan support, right? If you make a random group of people from respectable clan's you will know you will have people who actually want to finish the content and are capable. What if you are with 5 friends, why not be able to add a random player?

About the 'saving', you can always add a system of 'common lowest denominator', or whatever you call it. You just get at the point where the least far person of your group is.

 

[Metra]

/!\ LONG-ASS POST /!\​

/!\ LONG-ASS POST END /!\​

Do you work at Bungie? If so, can you guys improve in-game social interaction? Also, can you address my previous post:

Playing with "randoms" on a "hard" raid is not the problem here.

The problem is being forced to do manual matchmaking, because the game lacks basic interaction features. Even if you're in a clan, you need to organize your party outside of the game. This is a serious problem, mainly because raid is - apparently - the pinnacle of PVE, and a lot of people (who paid for this content, by the way) won't be able to even try it.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Is it true that there's really no way to make the raid party from inside the game? Forgive me if this has already been answered.

 

[Llyrwenne]

All content should be available to everyone. Everyone paid for the same content, or at least for the same opportunity. Regular level restrictions, as in most (MMO)RPG's, makes sense because the level difference with the creeps would be to large and the player would not stand any chance.. However, putting a 'friends-only' restriction is ridiculous. I mean, by this Bungie should add a warning or requirement on the box of the game: 'Requires at least 5 friends to play all content'?

Many people act it is some elite content, only intended for the elite and die-hards. But this is a minority. What about the majority of players. Shouldn't they have a chance to try it? Who cares that they maybe don't finish the raid and only get to kill one or two sub-bosses. They can still get loot from the game from the 'easier' content from the raids and at least have a challenge.
Furthermore, people act like pug's are always terrible. In Destiny you will have clan support, right? If you make a random group of people from respectable clan's you will know you will have people who actually want to finish the content and are capable. What if you are with 5 friends, why not be able to add a random player?

About the 'saving', you can always add a system of 'common lowest denominator', or whatever you call it. You just get at the point where the least far person of your group is.

And nobody is stopping you from accessing the Raid by getting a Fireteam together. They aren't blocking anything from you. There is no 'friends-only'-restriction, there's a 'Fireteam-only-restriction'. Anybody can try this content by getting together with any five other players and forming a Fireteam.

Let me just repeat this once more; this content is not blocked off, it is available to everyone.
Everybody already has the chance to try it, by simply forming a Fireteam with any five other people.

I hate to use this word, but 'entitled' is what I think when I read posts like this. You are not entitled to having all content in a game available to you at the most basic entry-level. If a developer designs a specific piece of content specifically for a certain type of player, then that's fine. You have no right to demand them to open it up to players that the content was not made for. There is nothing wrong and no harm done in having content available designed specifically for players that dedicate a lot of time to your game.

People constantly bring up how they 'have jobs' or 'no friends to play with' and that Bungie is somehow blocking them from experiencing this content because there's no matchmaking, negating that they can actually get together with other people in similar situations and plan when to come online, etc. If you can't do any of that, and 'have a job' and 'not enough friends', then I'm sorry, but this 10+ hour Raid requiring planning, high-level hard-to-get Exotic gear, cooperation and a full Fireteam just isn't for you in the first place.

And a lowest-common-denominator checkpoint system would be massively frustrating and would not actually solve any of the problems I listed.

And just as to reiterate the following;

I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Stops making sense Tiemen, please stop!

 

[thepotatoman]

I just want to say that I've never played a game that needed more cooperation than Payday 2 stealth, and I've matchmade with plenty of people that were in some ways more cooperative than my friends might be. I've had similar experience in plenty of other games too.

I think the potential for teamwork in matchmaking is a bit underrated. You really only need one guy who knows what he's doing to open his mouth and give it a try, and that typically gets people to open up and contribute their own stuff. The only problem is that most games don't require complex teamwork, and thus people don't have to care about focusing on it.

I can maybe understand if they're trying to section off something for only the crazy people with 2,000 hours in the game and spreadsheets telling them how to min-max every stat, but I don't agree that it's impossible to find people willing to work together in matchmaking.

 

[Hitmeneer]

And nobody is stopping you from accessing the Raid by getting a Fireteam together. They aren't blocking anything from you. There is no 'friends-only'-restriction, there's a 'Fireteam-only-restriction'. Anybody can try this content by getting together with any five other players and forming a Fireteam.

Let me just repeat this once more; this content is not blocked off, it is available to everyone.
Everybody already has the chance to try it, by simply forming a Fireteam with any five other people.

I hate to use this word, but 'entitled' is what I think when I read posts like this. You are not entitled to having all content in a game available to you at the most basic entry-level. If a developer designs a specific piece of content specifically for a certain type of player, then that's fine. You have no right to demand them to open it up to players that the content was not made for. There is nothing wrong and no harm done in having content available designed specifically for players that dedicate a lot of time to your game.

People constantly bring up how they 'have jobs' or 'no friends to play with' and that Bungie is somehow blocking them from experiencing this content because there's no matchmaking, negating that they can actually get together with other people in similar situations and plan when to come online, etc. If you can't do any of that, and 'have a job' and 'not enough friends', then I'm sorry, but this 10+ hour Raid requiring planning, high-level hard-to-get Exotic gear, cooperation and a full Fireteam just isn't for you in the first place.

And a lowest-common-denominator checkpoint system would be massively frustrating and would not actually solve any of the problems I listed.

And just as to reiterate the following;

I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player.

Not entitled? I buy the game? I am entitled to the full content, whether I have friends (online) or not. The only requirement is that I have a machine capable running the game, the game itself and internet connection. Or should they also lock it away for people without the microphone plugged in?

And 10+ hours? Extensive planning? I think you are reading to much into this.... They confirmed it was more in the range of 4-5 hours. The first 10+ tries of most people will be just random trying things to figure it out and wiping many times. Let random's do that too!
And what if I just want to play just an hour the raid with some random's. Because we aren't hard-core enough we shouldn't be allowed? The Gods of Bungie apparently decided we, the common people that are casuals, aren't entitled to try it even. Insane. But apparently it is actually working for their hard-core players, who now even feel more special. They are given the gift of special content from Bungie to reach the heavens, not like other filthy casual peasants.

 

[mitchman]

I have 50 people in my friends list, but even I would probably have a hard time finding someone to play with in these raids. Expect a lot of pissed off people when the game launchers.

 

[pieatorium]

And a lowest-common-denominator checkpoint system would be massively frustrating and would not actually solve any of the problems I listed.

there is already a checkpoint system though

 

[Nipo]

Has it been addressed why they can't make a "join raid already in progress" option? People who don't mind jumping in the middle fo the raid can fill in for people who dropped out and if that isn't something you like you can just not select it. It works in FFXIV.

I love PUGS sure you'll fail a ton more than a static but when you pull it off with a bunch of randoms it is great.

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

Not entitled? I buy the game? I am entitled to the full content, whether I have friends (online) or not. The only requirement is that I have a machine capable running the game, the game itself and internet connection. Or should they also lock it away for people without the microphone plugged in?

Eh, that's a rather toxic way to approach this. I'm not entirely opposed to a matchmaking system, but in no way is it a developer's responsibility to make sure it's as easy as possible to see every single piece of content.