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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XIII: Leak Dynasty

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NeonZ

Member
Eh, give Sakurai the benefit of the doubt. We don't know the ins and outs of what this game's development involves. And the last thing I'd accuse Sakurai of is laziness. Even if a clone here or a cut there may seem that way, in a vacuum, you have to consider the sheer magnitude of the project and how content-packed he makes these games, let alone the need to balance them and meet a deadline critical to the company.

I'm not accusing him of laziness, it's just that... For example, look at the leaked Ganondorf footage. He seems to basically move like Brawl Ganondorf, but with extra magic effects thrown on top of his animations and a couple of different, but still similar looking, animations.

The way things at least appear to be right now, it seems like not having time or resources to add that kind of extra detail to everyone is the main reason some characters are getting cut in the transition from Brawl to this game, and that just seems unfortunate from my point of view. I'd tale a Wolf or Lucas just like Brawl's, just with higher polygonal models, to them just being cut.

The rigging is not reused(the skeleton system is far more robust, particularly with facial animations this time), the animations are not reused, the voicework is not reused.

Brawl's characters did have facial animations. Some of them were improved here, but the rigging was always there. We've seen Lucina reusing an animation from Brawl Marth (hand on chest) in such a way that her hand was left floating mid air in the new Smash, rather than actually touching her chest, due to the animation being applied in a very different model. It really seems like straight up animation reuse.
 

VandalD

Member
It's unfortunate that Dark Samus has that name instead of something simpler and more differentiating, like Prime. And it would have been a perfect opportunity to add another Metroid rep and cover Retro's contribution to the franchise.
 

Neiteio

Member
You're preaching to the choir. He's definitely going to be one of my mains. I'd love to hear your ideas for a Bowser Jr. spin-off game, BTW.

bowser_and_jr_by_rainmaker113-d6vo5cq.png
Awesome picture. :) As for ideas of a Bowser Jr. game, I appreciate your interest in my thoughts, but I've never considered such a thing. Although certainly, they could probably make all kinds of cool games around the Clown Car. :)

Absolutely agree. I said a couple pages back I could see him getting to main/secondary status for me. He looks so much fun to play with, and if I can play as Larry like I do in MK8... holy shit.
I think we'll get to play as all of the Koopalings, given how all of the other details in the rumor have matched up with the leak so far. But I think it's definitely safe to at least expect Larry, since that trophy depicts him in the Clown Car. He's never been shown by himself in the Clown Car before, so that suggests to me that's his playable model as an alt of Bowser Jr.

Unfortunately, even though this is a good analogy, it was the leaker who was Ozymandius yesterday ("I already did it thirty-five minutes ago").
Ha! Good point.
 

maxcriden

Member
He just does haha. He does it in TP, and he does it in OoT, because you see the defeated Ganondorf sealed away at the end.

And no problem!

That is really weird. Then he was the same Ganon/dorf who was already plenty threatening in his behavior to Link and Zelda's ancestors.
 
I don't think the Polar Bear is exactly conclusive to say Ice Climbers are in...

We've yet to really see him even acknowledged, he appeared in one shot in a whole batch of press screens, and in a POTD that was quickly removed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ice Climbers were planned at one point, but axed due to difficulties getting them to work like presumably happened.

The Polar Bear might ultimately be cut from the final version alongside them, and his appearance in two early screen-shots is ultimately simply what could've been. Did anyone ever run into him in Smash Run during the E3/BB Demo?

No, but people ran into Sneaky Spirit during the demo, so the "Smash Run Enemy = Playable Character" theory is still out there.
 

maxcriden

Member
Awesome picture. :) As for ideas of a Bowser Jr. game, I appreciate your interest in my thoughts, but I've never considered such a thing. Although certainly, they could probably make all kinds of cool games around the Clown Car. :)

I guess I figure you just have a secret library in your house and all of the books are design bibles for games you've come up with ;)
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Here's a thought: It is possible that Lucas and Wolf are in fact Ness/Fox costumes, but they simply were not given the clone treatment like Lucina, Dark Pit, and Mr. Dario.

Also, remember. 5 more characters.

I thought the extra five were debunked?
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
Yep, both Bowser Jr. and the Clown Car itself look adorable and cool. :) I have a feeling Bowser Jr. is going to be REALLY popular. The Mario fan base is huge, and the kids playing will have grown up with Bowser Jr. (and the Koopalings, too, thanks to their recent resurgence in NSMB, MK8, etc). I'm really curious if Bowser Jr. will get his own dedicated reveal trailer, or if he'll share it with a newcomer from another series. He could easily have his own, since they could fit in all of the Koopalings while they're at it.

Yeah, They look so adorable and cute! he was on my prediction list, and i'm pleased that he is playable character but I didn't expect that kind of moveset. I'm blown by how creative the moveset is.
 

Violet_0

Banned
does Dark Pit look in any way different than normal Pit or is he just a straight re-color? If they even share the same moveset that would be like making Blue Tunic Link his own character.

Dat "fanart" for smash he would bring.
But besides that I like this moveset. I just want anyone as another metroid rep at this point.

careful there, you might get a Other M character
 
That's not true. A bunch of characters are reusing voicework from the previous game. In the Brawl Iwata Asks, Sakurai even admitted that certain characters were using audio recorded in 1999.

Some voicework is, but much of it is not. I would be surprised if they're still using Melee Capt. Falcon's voicework in Smash 4, audio hardware has improved significantly since that game and the lower quality would probably be apparent.

Reusing old voice acting would have a minimal to zero impact on character development time, though. That's all handled by a separate audio team and just passed to animation for lipsync and programmers for implementation whenever it's done. Starting with it done might save a day or two of waiting for the recordings? Hard to know. Very small impact.
 
That is really weird. Then he was the same Ganon/dorf who was already plenty threatening in his behavior to Link and Zelda's ancestors.
Yup! I have no idea what people are talking about when they say he's not a villain haha. In Wind Waker he's a sympathetic character, but he's definitely completely evil. I guess the other explination is that while he really hated OoT, he finds WW Link kinda cute, and maybe mellowed out over time? But I mean, he's still evil.
 

Kouriozan

Member
I'm joining the Bowser Jr. fan club, thanks to him we can have the koopa clown car!
And if his alts are really the koopaling that's would be mega awesome.
Honestly I think it's legit.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Where that poster that has the mutated hamster mom with the baby in her arms as an avatar due to losing a bet? I wanna laugh at it again.
 

Toxi

Banned
That looks like it'd be fun to use, but the amount of possible variety in tilts and smashes with just tentacles seems kind of low. Ivysaur is proof they can be used for a lot, but most normals would have to make heavy use of different applications of Phazon in order to distinguish themselves.
You could take a few normals from her Dark Samus form, like the phazon shield could be a down-smash.

Also, it'd have to be very carefully-animated, so as not to look like a squid that's constantly pissing itself.
That's basically what Metroid Prime is. :p
I didn't even know I wanted her... Sign me up for that DLC set!
It looks enough like Shuma, anyway, and he only got in MvC3 as DLC...
I was thinking of Shuma too. This normal would fit right in a hypothetical Prime moveset.
shuma-123.gif
 

Neiteio

Member
I'm not accusing him of laziness, it's just that... For example, look at the leaked Ganondorf footage. He seems to basically move like Brawl Ganondorf, but with extra magic effects thrown on top of his animations and a couple of different, but still similar looking, animations.

The way things at least appear to be right now, it seems like not having time or resources to add that kind of extra detail to everyone is the main reason some characters are getting cut in the transition from Brawl to this game, and that just seems unfortunate from my point of view. I'd tale a Wolf or Lucas just like Brawl's, just with higher polygonal models, to them just being cut.
It's easy to look at any given shortcoming and say, "It would've been so simple," but all of the other things they have to do add up, like the fact they had to rebuild most of Brawl's roster, and build all of the new characters, and balance them according to the new system, and get them all running well on two platforms (3DS and WiiU)... Al of this, while also tending to the art and design and modeling and programming needs of stages and assist trophies and trophies and Smash Run and so on and so forth. I trust Sakurai had good reasons for what he did, and it wasn't apathy to the fans or trying to take shortcuts.
 
Sorry but you don't have an understanding of how game development works if you think that's how things happen.

You can't just uprez existing assets for a new game like this, nobody does that in the industry and the quality would not look good. In fact, the idea of 'uprezzing' a 3D mesh created for a 7 year old game doesn't make a lot of sense for anything other than a straight port or remake, where people will be expecting lower quality assets.

Similarly, this is not in the same engine. The rigging is not reused(the skeleton system is far more robust, particularly with facial animations this time), the animations are not reused, the voicework is not reused.

The "moveset concepts" are a starting point but have to be reexamined and many characters, like Mario in Brawl or Pit in this new game, see significant changes or additions to their movesets.

If you want to directly compare a Newcomer's production to a Veteran's production, the difference is probably about a week and a half. That's how long it would take to conceptualize a moveset for the character and get approval from other branches of the company (since a lot of these Nintendo characters need approval from the individual teams who 'own' those games) and then move into production.

From there, the process of creating a Veteran or a Newcomer is exactly the same. Characters have to be modeled, rigged, and animated. Voice actors have to be hired (because reusing voicework makes no sense- if you're going to pay them full wage for a second game you're going to record new voicework), the art team has to create the effects work, which is stuff like glows or sparkles or fire or whatever the character's attacks call for that aren't part of the model itself, and then months later once the character is 'complete', or functionally complete but still missing VFX, the balance testing begins.

The balance testing is the longest, most arduous part of creating characters for a fighting game. And the worst part is, you might get it wrong and prolong the process over and over on accident.

Now, what you're thinking of? Something easy to produce? That's clones.

With clone characters, you are taking an existing rig and animations, giving it a new model and voicework, usually changing the VFX in minor ways, and bumping it up to a full character. In Smash 4 in particular, all of the clones we have seen get added were derived from alternate costumes. Doctor Mario was a Mario outfit, Lucina was a Marth outfit, and Dark Pit was a Pit outfit.

Lucas and Wolf, while they could have been produced using the clone pipeline, did not exist as costumes for other characters and therefore would have been too much work to complete in time for the game's release. (this is an assumption on my part, backed up by the comments Sakurai made about ZSS's shorts outfit revealed recently)

It's easy to get a lot of misconceptions about game development and how progression from an old title to a new title works, but believe me, this is all 100% new stuff. They can't, and don't port 'existing assets' into the game in any form other than perhaps as the non-animated trophies built out of models from other games. Anything you see in Smash Bros 4 is made for Smash Bros 4.

I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, I just think you genuinely don't realize how much work it is to produce a Veteran character, or any character, for these games. And I wanted to explain so you understand in the future for this and other titles.

It's getting a little silly, but buddy, I think you're over-analyzing what I said.

I am literally just saying that veterans take less work (significantly, I think) than new characters. I know it's a non-trivial amount of work, but with Lucas specifically - who was already in their most recent (and presumably most similar game) and who is already basically a Ness clone, it seems like it'd be fairly easy to keep him in.
 
I
Brawl's characters did have facial animations. Some of them were improved here, but the rigging was always there. We've seen Lucina reusing an animation from Brawl Marth (hand on chest) in such a way that her hand was left floating mid air in the new Smash, rather than actually touching her chest, due to the animation being applied in a very different model. It really seems like straight up animation reuse.

The facial animations possible in this game, on characters like Donkey Kong, Dedede, and even Princesses Zelda and Peach as we've seen in screenshots, are not possible using the Brawl facial rig. It just doesn't have this much range. They have facial expressions, yeah, but Smash 4 has way more variety and seems to be super mega robust. It would require a new facial flex system for sure.

(I am an animator if that hasn't become apparent yet)
 

Jawmuncher

Member
does Dark Pit look in any way different than normal Pit or is he just a straight re-color? If they even share the same moveset that would be like making Blue Tunic Link his own character.



careful there, you might get a Other M character

I liked Other M
 

sfz

Banned
The proposed 5 were debunked but it doesn't change that you can fit around more 5 characters into the leaked roster.

That is what I thought. The existence of more characters would explain the strange placement as well.

But that could just be because the clones were recently added.
 
I thought the extra five were debunked?

All that was debunked was the 5 dlc characters because the guy who said admitted he was messing with us.

The fact is there are clearly 5 spaces left on the roster and characters don't line up with where you would normally expect them to be on a final fully unlocked roster. This could mean the characters weren't finished by the time the esrb build was recorded, that they'll be added in as dlc later, that they weren't unlocked in that build for whatever reason, or (worse case) that its just a poor final lay out and that is the final roster.

We don't have any evidence to prove which if any of those scenarios is true. As far as we know people saying x/y/z were cut is because they aren't in that image.

All we know 100% is that the esrb leak video and screens reflect 48 finished characters at some point in development.
 
The facial animations possible in this game, on characters like Donkey Kong, Dedede, and even Princesses Zelda and Peach as we've seen in screenshots, are not possible using the Brawl facial rig. It just doesn't have this much range. They have facial expressions, yeah, but Smash 4 has way more variety and seems to be super mega robust. It would require a new facial flex system for sure.

(I am an animator if that hasn't become apparent yet)

Me too :)
 
It's getting a little silly, but buddy, I think you're over-analyzing what I said.

I am literally just saying that veterans take less work (significantly, I think) than new characters. I know it's a non-trivial amount of work, but with Lucas specifically - who was already in their most recent (and presumably most similar game) and who is already basically a Ness clone, it seems like it'd be fairly easy to keep him in.

I think if they were planning from day 1 to have Lucas in, but got down to the wire and he was low priority, he might be one of the cuts Sakurai mentioned when Lucina was revealed and said she was filling in someone who was cut's roster slot.

Lucas and Wolf would both make sense as being "do them if we have time, cut if we can't" characters since they're so similar to other fighters. We saw a lot of that on the Brawl disc, with Mewtwo, Doctor Mario, Roy, Dixie, Plusle/Minun, etc sitting on there unfinished while characters like Wolf made it onto the full roster.

Time constraints kill characters. But this time around, there's potentially DLC. So those unfinished characters, the ones they ran out of time to make, could still get released.
 

Fireblend

Banned
It's getting a little silly, but buddy, I think you're over-analyzing what I said.

I am literally just saying that veterans take less work (significantly, I think) than new characters. I know it's a non-trivial amount of work, but with Lucas specifically - who was already in their most recent (and presumably most similar game) and who is already basically a Ness clone, it seems like it'd be fairly easy to keep him in.

I want Lucas in as much as humanly possible, but man, it's like you didn't read what he said. He's absolutely right.
 
That is what I thought. The existence of more characters would explain the strange placement as well.

But that could just be because the clones were recently added.

Yoshi still divides the mario franchise characters and its not time line because Rosalina is before Bowser Jr. The fact yoshi (despite being a yoshi series rep) divides the mario characters makes very likely that image isn't the final roster or at least isn't the final lay out
 

sfz

Banned
It's easy to look at any given shortcoming and say, "It would've been so simple," but all of the other things they have to do add up, like the fact they had to rebuild most of Brawl's roster, and build all of the new characters, and balance them according to the new system, and get them all running well on two platforms (3DS and WiiU)... Al of this, while also tending to the art and design and modeling and programming needs of stages and assist trophies and trophies and Smash Run and so on and so forth. I trust Sakurai had good reasons for what he did, and it wasn't apathy to the fans or trying to take shortcuts.

And literally 16 specials for every character. Don't forget the dearth of customization options.
 
I think if they were planning from day 1 to have Lucas in, but got down to the wire and he was low priority, he might be one of the cuts Sakurai mentioned when Lucina was revealed and said she was filling someone else's roster slot.

Lucas and Wolf would both make sense as being "do them if we have time, cut if we can't" characters since they're so similar to other fighters. We saw a lot of that on the Brawl disc, with Mewtwo, Doctor Mario, Roy, Dixie, Plusle/Minun, etc sitting on there unfinished while characters like Wolf made it onto the full roster.

Time constraints kill characters. But this time around, there's potentially DLC. So those unfinished characters, the ones they ran out of time to make, could still get released.

Yup, agree with it all, none of that goes against my statements. I shouldn't even be lamenting Lucas's loss, frankly, since we have no proof that he's been cut. I can see him being on the bottom of the priority list, I just wish he wasn't.
 

Neiteio

Member
Yeah, They look so adorable and cute! he was on my prediction list, and i'm pleased that he is playable character but I didn't expect that kind of moveset. I'm blown by how creative the moveset is.
When the Smashboards rumor first came out in late July/early August, it was the mention of Bowser Jr. in the Clown Car that made me sit up and take notice. Sakurai has repeatedly said that when it comes to all-original newcomers (a.k.a. non-clones), he looks for a gameplay hook, first and foremost. The Clown Car immediately struck me as a hook because it has exhibited so many abilities over the years and has no limits on what it can do. For a creative type like Sakurai, that's carte blanche to design something that's really fun. This made him seem very plausible, along with all of the NSMB representation, and me taking a step back and realizing Bowser Jr. has matched Rosalina for relevance with his recurring roles in the Galaxy and NSMB games (as well as the Mario RPGs and sports titles).

So it's great to see him in action. I look forward to the batch of screens that will accompany his official reveal, showing him and Little Mac boxing each other, or Jr. looking cute next to Bowser, or the Koopalings teaming up on Mario and Luigi, and so on. :)
 
So guys have there been any updates on the leaks since the PotD came out last night? Went to bed and just woke up. Tried skimming through the pages but didn't see anything notable.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
... Why?

Also, why is the DK Rap back, but not the actual Jungle Japes music, on Jungle Japes? That's going to keep bothering me unless that Sound Test was wrong/Stage Roster was incomplete.

Wait, the DK Rap is back?

You know, if Dixie is in, I'd love if her newcomer trailer has a new version of the DK Rap modified to be about DK, Diddy, and Dixie.
 
Yoshi still divides the mario franchise characters and its not time line because Rosalina is before Bowser Jr. The fact yoshi (despite being a yoshi series rep) divides the mario characters makes very likely that image isn't the final roster or at least isn't the final lay out

I think the weird arrangement is probably one of the biggest points in favor of the roster not being fully unlocked.

Mr. Game & Watch being stuck up next to all the Mario reps instead of being in a cluster with other retro-type characters (like Duck Hunt Dog, Little Mac, etc) has been an oddity I don't think many people point out but it keeps sticking with me whenever I look at the roster layout.
 

Neiteio

Member
Yeah, They look so adorable and cute! he was on my prediction list, and i'm pleased that he is playable character but I didn't expect that kind of moveset. I'm blown by how creative the moveset is.
You didn't respond to me earlier, but I congratulated you on getting so many of the characters you wanted. You were the first person I thought of when Duck Hunt was shown. :)
 
I want Lucas in as much as humanly possible, but man, it's like you didn't read what he said. He's absolutely right.

I read every word, I appreciate how long and well thought out his response was.

Yup, it's a lot of work to keep veterans. It's still less work than new characters. Especially comparing a semi-clone like Lucas to a new character like Rosalina/Luma or something. Why is that thought so offensive to you guys?... Can we move on?
 
I think the weird arrangement is probably one of the biggest points in favor of the roster not being fully unlocked.

Mr. Game & Watch being stuck up next to all the Mario reps instead of being in a cluster with other retro-type characters (like Duck Hunt Dog, Little Mac, etc) has been an oddity I don't think many people point out but it keeps sticking with me whenever I look at the roster layout.

Yep, either incomplete, not finalized, or someone is drunk
 

Zubz

Banned
Wait, the DK Rap is back?

You know, if Dixie is in, I'd love if her newcomer trailer has a new version of the DK Rap modified to be about DK, Diddy, and Dixie.

Well, the Sound Test screenshot had "Kongo Jungle" as a song on it, and Kongo Jungle was the name given to the DK Rap in Brawl (It played on the Kongo Jungle level in Melee), and I can't seem to think of anything else that'd mean. It's also weird because it was there next to Gear Getaway, which I still don't think fits Jungle Japes at all, and Jungle Japes doesn't have its own music, either.

That'd be interesting, but I kinda want to see a song from DKC2/3 or Tropical Freeze in her trailer.
 
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