Jawmuncher
Member
Uprising needs a WiiU update with better controls. Even though I didn't mind it.
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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XIII: Leak Dynasty
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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Since we were talking about how Metroid Prime's core form would work as a playable character earlier, I made a moveset. I thought giving her the phazon hyper beam makes sense because it's associated with the character, even if it's Samus who used it. The way I see Prime's character working is that she would be a zoner, using phazon pools, shockwaves, and phazon beams to keep foes at tentacle's reach. The final smash was pretty obvious.
Sakurai cut Lucas because of that one girl who challenged him on that Japanese variety show, and he cut Ice Climbers because he's still salty the Inuits defected from Asia in 1000 CE.
That's the thing. They don't just up-rez the model. They build them from scratch. For example, here's Brawl Mario. And here's SSBF3DSWiiU Mario. (I still hate that title a lot.)Really? How do you know that?
Veterans seem like they'd be a lot less work. The mesh already exists, uprez-ing existing 3D models is easier than making new ones from scratch, and frankly, it's pretty likely they already have a hi-res mesh that they simplified for use in Brawl. The rigging's already done, the UV mapping for textures is already done, a basic texture is already done, a butt-ton of animations are already done (simple things that don't need to be changed like walking, turning, idling, jumping, falling, et cetera. Decisions about what moves the character will have are already made and only need to be updated and tweaked, rather than created from scratch. VO is mostly done... Is that enough? Should I keep going?
Fixed it for you.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Dark Pit 2014 is Wolfgate 2008 all over again.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Maybe Sakurai realised "spite" is quite literally what half the Smash audience wants?
Reading some of the reactions to newcomers it always boggles my mind to see people outright say they'd be happy to see a character gone in exchange for no additional content.
NeonZ
Member
We've seen Lucina reusing an animation from Brawl Marth. Yeah, it's nice that veterans are getting some new effects and such, but it seems silly to outright remove characters in a game that doesn't even seem to be adding any new mechanics.
Brawl at least had stuff like swimming, stairs and Final Smashs that would require additions to make Melee characters compatible with it. So far, this game doesn't seem to have anything added to the core gameplay at all.
Scooter155
Member
Yeah, obviously there's an answer, I just can't help think it's not that they couldn't bring in Lucas, Ice Climbers, Wolf, et cetera, but that they didn't want to. Whether they're too clone-y or don't have enough appeal, whatever. Just bummed :\
OricWindstar
Member
Yeah, that always blows my mind.
Eh, give Sakurai the benefit of the doubt. We don't know the ins and outs of what this game's development involves. And the last thing I'd accuse Sakurai of is laziness. Even if a clone here or a cut there may seem that way, in a vacuum, you have to consider the sheer magnitude of the project and how content-packed he makes these games, let alone the need to balance them and meet a deadline critical to the company.
Remember: 5 more characters.
I'll just put an old post of mine from the DK: TF thread here:
So you know how much I concur!
I'm happy for Dark Pit, myself.
In fact I like all the newcomers because most of them have interesting gameplay.
Scooter155
Member
Yeah, that's bonkers.
PadWarrior
Member
Direct next week perhaps?
Scooter155
Member
Guys, I am SO FREAKING EXCITED for Bowser Jr., a sentence I never thought I'd string together, but seeing what Sakurai is doing here, I'm so stoked. :-D
And while I'm inclined to believe the Koopalings rumor is true (all of the other details in that rumor have been consistent with the leak, and we've seen a trophy of Larry in the Clown Car, something he's never been shown in by himself), I really want it to be fully confirmed before this becomes, possibly, one of my favorite characters EVER.
I imagine Sakurai will show Bowser Jr. and all seven Koopalings in the trailer. That'll be one hell of a hype infusion. BRING IT.
And while I'm inclined to believe the Koopalings rumor is true (all of the other details in that rumor have been consistent with the leak, and we've seen a trophy of Larry in the Clown Car, something he's never been shown in by himself), I really want it to be fully confirmed before this becomes, possibly, one of my favorite characters EVER.
I imagine Sakurai will show Bowser Jr. and all seven Koopalings in the trailer. That'll be one hell of a hype infusion. BRING IT.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I just wanted the cat from the Wii's News Channel...
I want cloud-hair-dude from the Wii Street U channel:
Guy looks like he knows what's up.
Oh, right. "I coveted that wind," and all that. You know, it's interesting he wasn't willing to kill Link and Zelda considering the very same Ganondorf had been willing to do so in--wait, I'm confusing myself. I was going to say he was willing to do so, as Ganon, in OoT's future Link timeline(s), but if I understand correctly, this is actually not the same person. I mean, it's the same person, but different choices and circumstances were made in his life. He was never defeated by Link. He tried to kidnap Zelda but never actually tried to kill Link or Zelda. And never became Ganon. Interesting. I wonder if I have this right at all.
It's related to the Photo Channel cat
Stupid imgur not working at work
I'll check it out later, thank you!
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Are there any Nintendo series where the villain could realistically be included as the MAIN REP over the hero?
*insert Duck Hunt Dog jokes*
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Devil from Devil World, who I'd love. But it'd be neat to have a villain be the rep of his series for once.
*insert Duck Hunt Dog jokes*
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Devil from Devil World, who I'd love. But it'd be neat to have a villain be the rep of his series for once.
OricWindstar
Member
Same man! He's my ultimate "never knew I wanted, but now need him" character. His play style looks so sick!
Scooter155
Member
I know it's not all directed at me, but I'd like to clarify my position...
I don't think there's a Port Up button, I don't think Sakurai's lazy or spiteful.
My only statements have been :
I wish Lucas was in the game.
It's significantly less work to hang on to existing characters than to create new ones.
As an aside - I think it's sad when any character gets cut. The game would be more fun if MewTwo and Pichu and everyone else were back.
Silly "Watchmen" analogy coming in, don't highlight if you haven't read the book or seen the movie:
So, the point is: Sakurai is NOT doing this out of malice. If he has to cut, he has to cut. But hey, with enough noise, maybe they'll think to bring back cut characters as DLC?
Sakurai is Ozymandias. Remember the interview where Sakurai said that character selection makes him sick with anxiety, since it's so stressful cutting characters people love? Well, I picture Sakurai having an Ozymandias moment and really thinking about each and every person character he's going to kill cut, and the impact it'll have on that character's fans.
So, the point is: Sakurai is NOT doing this out of malice. If he has to cut, he has to cut. But hey, with enough noise, maybe they'll think to bring back cut characters as DLC?
KelpPlankton
Member
Really? How do you know that?
Veterans seem like they'd be a lot less work. The mesh already exists, uprez-ing existing 3D models is easier than making new ones from scratch, and frankly, it's pretty likely they already have a hi-res mesh that they simplified for use in Brawl. The rigging's already done, the UV mapping for textures is already done, a basic texture is already done, a butt-ton of animations are already done (simple things that don't need to be changed like walking, turning, idling, jumping, falling, et cetera. Decisions about what moves the character will have are already made and only need to be updated and tweaked, rather than created from scratch. VO is mostly done... Is that enough? Should I keep going?
Sorry but you don't have an understanding of how game development works if you think that's how things happen.
You can't just uprez existing assets for a new game like this, nobody does that in the industry and the quality would not look good. In fact, the idea of 'uprezzing' a 3D mesh created for a 7 year old game doesn't make a lot of sense for anything other than a straight port or remake, where people will be expecting lower quality assets.
Similarly, this is not in the same engine. The rigging is not reused(the skeleton system is far more robust, particularly with facial animations this time), the animations are not reused, the voicework is not reused.
The "moveset concepts" are a starting point but have to be reexamined and many characters, like Mario in Brawl or Pit in this new game, see significant changes or additions to their movesets.
If you want to directly compare a Newcomer's production to a Veteran's production, the difference is probably about a week and a half. That's how long it would take to conceptualize a moveset for the character and get approval from other branches of the company (since a lot of these Nintendo characters need approval from the individual teams who 'own' those games) and then move into production.
From there, the process of creating a Veteran or a Newcomer is exactly the same. Characters have to be modeled, rigged, and animated. Voice actors have to be hired (because reusing voicework makes no sense- if you're going to pay them full wage for a second game you're going to record new voicework), the art team has to create the effects work, which is stuff like glows or sparkles or fire or whatever the character's attacks call for that aren't part of the model itself, and then months later once the character is 'complete', or functionally complete but still missing VFX, the balance testing begins.
The balance testing is the longest, most arduous part of creating characters for a fighting game. And the worst part is, you might get it wrong and prolong the process over and over on accident.
Now, what you're thinking of? Something easy to produce? That's clones.
With clone characters, you are taking an existing rig and animations, giving it a new model and voicework, usually changing the VFX in minor ways, and bumping it up to a full character. In Smash 4 in particular, all of the clones we have seen get added were derived from alternate costumes. Doctor Mario was a Mario outfit, Lucina was a Marth outfit, and Dark Pit was a Pit outfit.
Lucas and Wolf, while they could have been produced using the clone pipeline, did not exist as costumes for other characters and therefore would have been too much work to complete in time for the game's release. (this is an assumption on my part, backed up by the comments Sakurai made about ZSS's shorts outfit revealed recently)
It's easy to get a lot of misconceptions about game development and how progression from an old title to a new title works, but believe me, this is all 100% new stuff. They can't, and don't port 'existing assets' into the game in any form other than perhaps as the non-animated trophies built out of models from other games. Anything you see in Smash Bros 4 is made for Smash Bros 4.
I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, I just think you genuinely don't realize how much work it is to produce a Veteran character, or any character, for these games. And I wanted to explain so you understand in the future for this and other titles.
Since we were talking about how Metroid Prime's core form would work as a playable character earlier, I made a moveset. I thought giving her the phazon hyper beam makes sense because it's associated with the character, even if it's Samus who used it. The way I see Prime's character working is that she would be a zoner, using phazon pools, shockwaves, and phazon beams to keep foes at tentacle's reach. The final smash was pretty obvious.
That looks like it'd be fun to use, but the amount of possible variety in tilts and smashes with just tentacles seems kind of low. Ivysaur is proof they can be used for a lot, but most normals would have to make heavy use of different applications of Phazon in order to distinguish themselves.
Also, it'd have to be very carefully-animated, so as not to look like a squid that's constantly pissing itself.
Beelzebufo
Banned
The WW Ganondorf is the same adult timeline Ganondorf that is defeated and sealed away by Link at the end of OoT. After he's sealed away, he breaks free and takes over, causing Hyrule to flood. He became Ganon for that final battle. WW just gives some motivation for why he turned evil in the first place: Gerudo Desert is a shitty place to live.Oh, right. "I coveted that wind," and all that. You know, it's interesting he wasn't willing to kill Link and Zelda considering the very same Ganondorf had been willing to do so in--wait, I'm confusing myself. I was going to say he was willing to do so, as Ganon, in OoT's future Link timeline(s), but if I understand correctly, this is actually not the same person. I mean, it's the same person, but different choices and circumstances were made in his life. He was never defeated by Link. He tried to kidnap Zelda but never actually tried to kill Link or Zelda. And never became Ganon. Interesting. I wonder if I have this right at all.
Stupid imgur not working at work
I'll check it out later, thank you!
Jawmuncher
Member
Since we were talking about how Metroid Prime's core form would work as a playable character earlier, I made a moveset. I thought giving her the phazon hyper beam makes sense because it's associated with the character, even if it's Samus who used it. The way I see Prime's character working is that she would be a zoner, using phazon pools, shockwaves, and phazon beams to keep foes at tentacle's reach. The final smash was pretty obvious.
Dat "fanart" for smash he would bring.
But besides that I like this moveset. I just want anyone as another metroid rep at this point.
You're preaching to the choir. He's definitely going to be one of my mains. I'd love to hear your ideas for a Bowser Jr. spin-off game, BTW.
Since we were talking about how Metroid Prime's core form would work as a playable character earlier, I made a moveset. I thought giving her the phazon hyper beam makes sense because it's associated with the character, even if it's Samus who used it. The way I see Prime's character working is that she would be a zoner, using phazon pools, shockwaves, and phazon beams to keep foes at tentacle's reach. The final smash was pretty obvious.
I didn't even know I wanted her... Sign me up for that DLC set!
It looks enough like Shuma, anyway, and he only got in MvC3 as DLC...
Absolutely agree. I said a couple pages back I could see him getting to main/secondary status for me. He looks so much fun to play with, and if I can play as Larry like I do in MK8... holy shit.
Oh, I wasn't directing my statement at you at all. I agree with everything you said. I just have noticed a more general trend about port assumptions on GAF more broadly.
Unfortunately, even though this is a good analogy, it was the leaker who was Ozymandius yesterday ("I already did it thirty-five minutes ago").
Yep, both Bowser Jr. and the Clown Car itself look adorable and cool.
I have a feeling Bowser Jr. is going to be REALLY popular. The Mario fan base is huge, and the kids playing will have grown up with Bowser Jr. (and the Koopalings, too, thanks to their recent resurgence in NSMB, MK8, etc). I'm really curious if Bowser Jr. will get his own dedicated reveal trailer, or if he'll share it with a newcomer from another series. He could easily have his own, since they could fit in all of the Koopalings while they're at it.SkullHydra
Member
A better moveset too. Ness' yoyo is crap compared to Lucas' smash attacks.
This would be great! I really want more Metroid representation...Since we were talking about how Metroid Prime's core form would work as a playable character earlier, I made a moveset. I thought giving her the phazon hyper beam makes sense because it's associated with the character, even if it's Samus who used it. The way I see Prime's character working is that she would be a zoner, using phazon pools, shockwaves, and phazon beams to keep foes at tentacle's reach. The final smash was pretty obvious.
Hey guys I'm Dark Pit my dad said I could *fart* hang out with you guys so what do you guys *fart* like to do I like to do the same stuff as *fart* Pit except I'm dark about it. Oh and sorry about the gas guys *fart* it's something I can't help my dad says it *fart* makes me special it's not a big deal right *fart* guys?
KelpPlankton
Member
Yeah, the clones in Smash 4 particularly were aaaaaaaaaaabsolutely not stealing anyone's slots. They were just going to be costumes but were bumped up to full characters as time permitted. Which is pretty cool, more characters are always better than less.
At most, the 6 clones in Melee stole Dedede's slot (as Sakurai mentioned), so we can guess that removing any individual clone wouldn't give us another character in any of these games. Maybe you could sacrifice 6 characters for one, but I don't think anyone would be happy about that.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
We do know there's some case of borrowing assets when it comes to stages (we know Sakurai asked Hal Laboratory for a lot of Melee data when creating Brawl), but very elucidating post nonetheless. If I could rep you, I would rep you hard.
That's really odd. I guess I had my timelines mixed up. Thanks for the clarification, anyway. How does he go from Ganon back to Ganondorf, then?
Here's a thought: It is possible that Lucas and Wolf are in fact Ness/Fox costumes, but they simply were not given the clone treatment like Lucina, Dark Pit, and Mr. Dario.
Also, remember. 5 more characters.
KelpPlankton
Member
Past stages are certainly ported over, but they have to have lighting redone, they generally get new music, and the collision boxes have to be updated and tested for the new game. They're a LOT less work than new stages, but they're not a one-and-done by any means.
You're right, though. They're borrowed assets.
Beelzebufo
Banned
He just does haha. He does it in TP, and he does it in OoT, because you see the defeated Ganondorf sealed away at the end.
And no problem!
That's not true. A bunch of characters are reusing voicework from the previous game. In the Brawl Iwata Asks, Sakurai even admitted that certain characters were using audio recorded in 1999.
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