• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Legend of Zelda Wii U Gameplay Demo

Status
Not open for further replies.

zeldablue

Member
SS is a compromise toward casual playstyles? Let's plunk grandma down and get her started.

They wanted it to appeal to the broadest demographic. But that demographic was already long gone by the time SS came out. I'm pretty sure only Zelda fans bought SS. :\

Hisada Yes. (laughs) A lot of characters that cheer Link on appear, so I think it's the kind of game that is accessible to anyone, whether they're long-standing players of the series or newcomers. And I hope girls who say they're no good at scary games will also try it.
Iwata The Legend of Zelda isn't just for guys.

Hosaka
Yes. I was like, "I can't do that!" We made adjustments like that right down to the finest details so people like me can definitely enjoy playing all the way to the end. I hope people will play it.
Iwata The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is incredibly dense in content, but you put a lot of effort into figuring out how you could make new players want to try it. So we'd be happy if people who haven't played video games play it.

New users were their primary demographic...even though I don't think they succeeded in reeling them in. My grandma was not playing SS. I'm happy to see that they care about female players. But the hand holding, baby-ing stuff is a huge turn off.
 

Dimmle

Member
They wanted it to appeal to the broadest demographic. But that demographic was already long gone by the time SS came out. I'm pretty sure only Zelda fans bought SS. :\



New users were their primary demographic...even though I don't think they succeeded in reeling them in. My grandma was not playing SS. I'm happy to see that they care about female players. But the hand holding, baby-ing stuff is a huge turn off.

I agree that they did not succeed in that endeavor. I love SS but it's even more complex from an interface perspective than a standard console Zelda. I think PH was probably the height of the casual Zelda.

Grandma was a bad example. I happen to know a grandma who is a diehard Nintendo collector and has played through Skyward Sword multiple times.
 

zeldablue

Member
Difficulty and linearity have no correlation to each other.

"Accessibility" tends to mean the game is easier to navigate and easier to play. ALttP was made to be more accessible according to Miyamoto in 1992. And comparing LoZ1 and ALttP, it's true...the game marks the map often and is substantially easier to play and beat.
 

NathanS

Member
"Accessibility" tends to mean the game is easier to navigate and easier to play. ALttP was made to be more accessible according to Miyamoto in 1992. And comparing LoZ1 and ALttP, it's true...the game marks the map often and is substantially easier to play and beat.

You said "easier and more linear" Most would agree that "Super Mario Brother: The Lost Levels" is both far harder and far less linear then "Super Mario World" to show what I mean. I would also argue that Adventure of Link is more linear then ALttP.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Yes. The problem I have at this very moment is that Nintendo doesn't trust the player enough to let them get lost or do anything for themselves. Most modern games aren't about patience...they're about instant gratification. That's not something I really want all the time, and I think it is counter productive for adventure games. If every games was about getting lost and having patience...there's a good chance I'd be asking for tighter more transparent games...but I'm not right now.
I see your point now, and I largely concur. Though, that brings me to another aspect. I think that with age/experience gamers learn to enjoy almost any game, as long as there's enough substance that meets their taste. For instance, I haven't 'beaten' a single GTA in my life, but I've played some GTA entries extensively. Just because the sandboxes in them have allowed me to enjoy myself without giving a flying figment about their narratives. I think that a sandbox zelda will be a good zelda for such players, regardless if they get to save the wold (for which they'd have to subject themselves to the hand-holding trials you've referred to) or not. 'I have to beat that game to the credits roll' is not something that actually motivates me these days. If that mainline temple annoys the heck out of me I'll drop it and go find something that I actually find enjoyable. I might or might not return to that same place after a month or so, depending on what rewards I expect to find past it. What I'm trying to say is that at the end of the day ZeldaU-with-some-handholding could still be a good/great game in my book, depending on what else was in there for me.
 

TheMoon

Member
Wait, do people not like ALBW? WTH! It seemed like everyone liked that game.

Zelda Cycle™

No, Zelda dungeons are not conductive to being procedurally generated. All it's going to do is create generic dungeons.

Definitely not across a whole game but you could easily design a selection of pieces that can be strung together in multiple combinations with randomized enemy patterns and environmental properties. Put it into a mystical off-shore location, spin a bit of lore-yarn around it et voilà, there you have your Temple of Uncertainty where you go in and a different challenge awaits you every time.
 

zeldablue

Member
I see your point now, and I largely concur. Though, that brings me to another aspect. I think that with age/experience gamers learn to enjoy almost any game, as long as there's enough substance that meets their taste. For instance, I haven't 'beaten' a single GTA in my life, but I've played some GTA entries extensively. Just because the sandboxes in them have allowed me to enjoy myself without giving a flying figment about their narratives. I think that a sandbox zelda will be a good zelda for such players, regardless if they get to save the wold (for which they'd have to subject themselves to the hand-holding trials you've referred to) or not. 'I have to beat that game to the credits roll' is not something that actually motivates me these days. If that mainline temple annoys the heck out of me I'll drop it and go find something that I actually find enjoyable. I might or might not return to that same place after a month or so, depending on what rewards I expect to find past it. What I'm trying to say is that at the end of the day ZeldaU-with-some-handholding could still be a good/great game in my book, depending on what else was in there for me.

It used to be that only 30-40% of players would finish a Zelda game. Not sure if that's true now. It used to be better to make games that were hard to beat. But now, in this market, you want the player to finish the full game so that they'll play the sequel. I also think designers are afraid to frustrate players. I think the draw for Dark Souls and Majora's Mask players was the philosophy of not babying the player and just giving the player a brutal experience. I think that's why Aonuma calls MM "hardcore."

I don't want to be frustrated playing Zelda...but I'd like to get a little more bothered at least. :p

You said "easier and more linear" Most would agree that "Super Mario Brother: The Lost Levels" is both far harder and far less linear then "Super Mario World" to show what I mean. I would also argue that Adventure of Link is more linear then ALttP.

Ah okay. I see what you mean. I guess I'm saying that for adventure games, the difficulty came from having the tenacity to figure out what to do. And in Zelda, the series became more and more guided. Which means that the thing that made the game "difficult" had been replaced with solely combat "difficulty." Zelda was maze/labyrinth-esque...which was difficult. Mario's difficulty is from platforms. Zelda's was from adventure. It's shifted elsewhere.
 

TheMoon

Member
EDIT: Since when did I become a full member? On the one hand kinda sad I'll never be a junior again, on the other, I'll take it!

If you create a thread with a bait-and-switch title you can get your junior rank back easily. Just be careful that it doesn't result in a ban ;)

i refuse to believe this in fact I bet wii music cost more to make than skyward sword..............

Development cost comes from the salary required to pay the amount of employees involved in the creation of the game plus whatever tech, etc might need to be bought/licensed for it. I think people forget this very simple fact about dev costs. Look at home many people and outside companies worked on SS, then look at how long the development took, then compare against Wii Music or whatever and take a guess which probably cost more to make.

New users were their primary demographic...even though I don't think they succeeded in reeling them in. My grandma was not playing SS. I'm happy to see that they care about female players. But the hand holding, baby-ing stuff is a huge turn off.

You're putting words in their mouth. Nowhere do they say "new players are our primary target demographic."

Yes. The problem I have at this very moment is that Nintendo doesn't trust the player enough to let them get lost or do anything for themselves.

That is very outdated. ALBW addressed and mostly solved this.
 
Could someone explain this? What is Miyamoto's role in this? He doesn't design these games. What does he do? Just provide oversight? Seems like a really unnecessary effort and just a waste of his timex that could be better served elsewhere.
 

zeldablue

Member
You're putting words in their mouth. Nowhere do they say "new players are our primary target demographic."

I suppose. Though if you read the full 5 volumes of interviews. Everything they designed, they designed to be sterile and unharmful looking. There "secondary audience" was at the forefront of all of their decisions.

That is very outdated.

It's outdated...(Because we're so spoiled now)

But at the same time Aonuma recently said:

“The recent Zelda games have been rather linear, as I thought players didn’t like getting lost, wondering what to do, or where to go. However, I’ve come to question this ‘traditional’ approach as I felt that we couldn’t gain the sense of wonder that existed in the original Legend of Zelda, in which you made unexpected encounters and where what used to be impossible would suddenly become possible.”
“We will, of course, continue to question and reconsider the approaches we have taken in the past without any reservations.”

We're going back to "outdated." And I really don't mind.
 

ibyea

Banned
Nintendo has always kept making Zelda more accessible. Over the past 25 years, games in general have become a lot easier and more linear. I just feel like Zelda went too hard on the "casual" spectrum for the DS and Wii audience. I feel like it ruined an important element of the series. The "adventure" part of the genre died. Adventure games on average cost more to make and sell a lot less than Action...so it makes sense, but it still hurts.

Easier, yes. Casual, I don't think so. And linear doesn't equal casual, nor bad. I am pretty sure a casual player will have one heck of a time getting through the dungeons. I know my sister did struggle when she first started TP for her first Zelda.
 

ibyea

Banned
Zelda Cycle™



Definitely not across a whole game but you could easily design a selection of pieces that can be strung together in multiple combinations with randomized enemy patterns and environmental properties. Put it into a mystical off-shore location, spin a bit of lore-yarn around it et voilà, there you have your Temple of Uncertainty where you go in and a different challenge awaits you every time.

Yes, you could, but they would be missing what I find unique in Zelda dungeons. The thematic journey and/or the dungeon as a giant mechanism itself (I don't know how to properly convey it in words) that I find so satisfying. Edit: Let's put it this way. A randomly generated dungeon would not have created something as delightful as Ancient Cistern, Forest Temple, Snowpeak Ruins, Stone Tower Temple, etc.
 

Ninjimbo

Member
Because it's the most expensive franchise Nintendo makes, and with their profitability troubles they really need to figure out how to make it actually fiscally sustainable (SS was the most expensive game Nintendo's made to date, but it actually lost sales compared to its immediate predecessor - you will never see a Zelda game again if that repeats itself enough times), not just critically acclaimed. And that means they needs to be very conscious of how successful open world games work, since those games have been killing Zelda in the popularity department and absorbing potential sales.
When we say SS is the most expensive game Nintendo has made, how much are we actually talking about? Nintendo doesn't release raw numbers as far as I know. It seems kind of a weird thing to be worried about when we simply don't know how Nintendo finances their games.
 

zeldablue

Member
When we say SS is the most expensive game Nintendo has made, how much are we actually talking about? Nintendo doesn't release raw numbers as far as I know. It seems kind of a weird thing to be worried about when we simply don't know how Nintendo finances their games.

Well...It took them 5 years. And a lot of it was experimenting with the Wii's technology. So probably a lot of money. I'm pretty sure Brawl and Skyward Sword were the most expensive Nintendo games at that time.

Easier, yes. Casual, I don't think so. And linear doesn't equal casual, nor bad. I am pretty sure a casual player will have one heck of a time getting through the dungeons. I know my sister did struggle when she first started TP for her first Zelda.

Casual doesn't mean bad. But it can mean "alienating."
 

zeldablue

Member
Didn't say casual was bad. I enjoy some casual games. I am saying that even in the modern incarnation of Zelda, it is not casual.

Oh. Okay.

Well Iwata's mission statement for the Wii was to take all those new casual fans and try to suck them into the more traditional Nintendo games. It didn't work that well...but it worked extremely well for Mario Kart Wii.

Zelda + "casualization" didn't work. But they still tried to make it work anyways. It was definitely a big part of how they went about making SS.
 

TheMoon

Member
Could someone explain this? What is Miyamoto's role in this? He doesn't design these games. What does he do? Just provide oversight? Seems like a really unnecessary effort and just a waste of his timex that could be better served elsewhere.

Miyamoto oversees everything going in the EAD divisions. Everything goes through him. However, he always picks a few titles where he gets involved more deeply into the process such as Pikmin 3 recently and now Star Fox. For the other games, he checks into the development status and gives regular feedback and deals with the producers of those teams. You see him talking about these games now because he is the face of Nintenddo. The general public thinks Miyamoto is making all these games. At E3 where people generally know better they let the actual main devs talk about their games. But in these broad reaching interviews, it's generally Miyamoto giving you the rundown because it gets more visibility than hearing from Nogami-san who is producer on Splatoon, for example.
 

Heroman

Banned
Oh. Okay.

Well Iwata's mission statement for the Wii was to take all those new casual fans and try to suck them into the more traditional Nintendo games. It didn't work that well...but it worked extremely well for Mario Kart Wii.

Zelda + "casualization" didn't work. But they still tried to make it work anyways. It was definitely a big part of how they went about making SS.
Skyward is no leas "causal" then tp and ww
 

ibyea

Banned
Oh. Okay.

Well Iwata's mission statement for the Wii was to take all those new casual fans and try to suck them into the more traditional Nintendo games. It didn't work that well...but it worked extremely well for Mario Kart Wii.

Zelda + "casualization" didn't work. But they still tried to make it work anyways. It was definitely a big part of how they went about making SS.

Yeah, it definitely didn't work. It is impossible to "casualize" Zelda. I have played so many Zelda games that for me dungeons aren't hard, but then I remember how my sister struggled through her first Zelda, TP, and it reminds me that for people who play it the first time, it is difficult.
 

TheMoon

Member
It's outdated...(Because we're so spoiled now)

But at the same time Aonuma recently said:

“The recent Zelda games have been rather linear, as I thought players didn’t like getting lost, wondering what to do, or where to go. However, I’ve come to question this ‘traditional’ approach as I felt that we couldn’t gain the sense of wonder that existed in the original Legend of Zelda, in which you made unexpected encounters and where what used to be impossible would suddenly become possible.”
“We will, of course, continue to question and reconsider the approaches we have taken in the past without any reservations.”

We're going back to "outdated." And I really don't mind.

I think you misunderstood me there or I misunderstood your initial post. Since you seem to be now agreeing with what I was trying to say there.

Yes, you could, but they would be missing what I find unique in Zelda dungeons. The thematic journey and/or the dungeon as a giant mechanism itself (I don't know how to properly convey it in words) that I find so satisfying. Edit: Let's put it this way. A randomly generated dungeon would not have created something as delightful as Ancient Cistern, Forest Temple, Snowpeak Ruins, Stone Tower Temple, etc.

How can you say that? All you need for that is make the randomization a part of its identity. I explained a way in which this could work. Obviously it wouldn't work in a way where the dungeon is completely randomized without any predesigned pieces and authored parameters.
 

ibyea

Banned
I think you misunderstood me there or I misunderstood your initial post. Since you seem to be now agreeing with what I was trying to say there.



How can you say that? All you need for that is make the randomization a part of its identity. I explained a way in which this could work. Obviously it wouldn't work in a way where the dungeon is completely randomized without any predesigned pieces and authored parameters.

Oh you mean a single dungeon that does that. Oh okay, I misunderstood. It could work. Edit: Yeah, looking back at your original post, I glazed over some details. Sorry about that.
 

zeldablue

Member
Skyward is no leas "casual" then tp and ww

I don't really disagree.

I just think TWW and TP contextualized their worlds a lot better.

I think you misunderstood me there or I misunderstood your initial post. Since you seem to be now agreeing with what I was trying to say there.
Cool! ...I think. :)

Lemme reread this then. @___@

Edit: Oh you mean that I made an outdated complaint. I thought you meant that getting lost was outdated. I gotcha. I have ALttP in my muscle memory...so I don't know if ALBW is a game where you're suppose to get lost. ALttP is pretty straight forward compared to LoZ1 and LA.
 

ibyea

Banned
Zeldablue
Mulling over your arguments, I see that it was nothing I should have had a beef about. Basically, their attempts at casualization, which they tried, as proven by the interview, is part of why there were elements in the game you didn't like.
 

TheMoon

Member
Cool! ...I think. :)

Lemme reread this then. @___@

Edit: Oh you mean that I made an outdated complaint. Not that getting lost was outdated. I gotcha. I have ALttP in my muscle memory...so I don't know if ALBW is a game where you're suppose to get lost. ALttP is pretty straight forward compared to LoZ1 and LA.

Yup that's what I meant. I guess I could've been a bit clearer with the wording. One thing is for sure, there's a 99% chance Fi would have expressed this without room for misinterpretation. ;)

In ALBW, one of the things Aonuma mentioned in interviews right before the game hit was that the entirely optional Hint Ghost and general lack of a companion was a way of dealing with the overly intrusive "hints" from characters like Fi. That paired with the completely open structure addressed the sense of being funneled down a linear path by a tour guide in that it let you figure out where you wanted to go and do stuff. This is how some people ended up in the hardest dungeons first and some "accidentally" played in a way that offered little challenge on the first go. It's obviously not a perfect solution but it was something they had already been aware of and actively dealing with.
 

zeldablue

Member
Zeldablue
Mulling over your arguments, I see that it was nothing I should have had a beef about. Basically, their attempts at casualization, which they tried, as proven by the interview, is part of why there were elements in the game you didn't like.

...

Yes. You understand me. C:
 

Asbear

Banned
I don't know. In general I still see the majority praise ALBW but with myself I know that I never reached a point where I said "Oh wow, ALBW is really amazing!" so the Zelda cycle doesn't apply to me :p here. I thought SS was good when I beat it and I still think it's a nice game and I wasn't blown away by ALBW and thought it made a lot of mistakes I don't wanna see Zelda U repeat, and I still feel that way.

I don't think the Zelda cycle is very strong in ALBW as a whole though.

I like SS because despite its linearity there's just so much diversity in it I felt. The tutorials and constant handholding and the dowsing sucked and admittedly the 3 last times you visit the 3 regions was stretching thin but the rest and especially the dungeons I pretty much just loved. I think SS was better than TP because TP has bad pacing and it fell apart at the end story-wise, and I dislike too many of its dungeons. I never had issues with the motion controls in SS either, but I'm glad Zelda U will be a return to form with button control scheme.
 

zeldablue

Member
I don't know. In general I still see the majority praise ALBW but with myself I know that I never reached a point where I said "Oh wow, ALBW is really amazing!" so the Zelda cycle doesn't apply to me :p here. I thought SS was good when I beat it and I still think it's a nice game and I wasn't blown away by ALBW and thought it made a lot of mistakes I don't wanna see Zelda U repeat, and I still feel that way.

I don't think the Zelda cycle is very strong in ALBW as a whole though.

I don't think handhelds are a part of the Zelda cycle...

But, since ALBW felt like half a remake it was hard for me to say what Nintendo learned from ALBW.
 

NathanS

Member
Ah okay. I see what you mean. I guess I'm saying that for adventure games, the difficulty came from having the tenacity to figure out what to do. And in Zelda, the series became more and more guided. Which means that the thing that made the game "difficult" had been replaced with solely combat "difficulty." Zelda was maze/labyrinth-esque...which was difficult. Mario's difficulty is from platforms. Zelda's was from adventure. It's shifted elsewhere.

Well action Adventure games, Adventure games tend to be quite linear. You also hit on the big problem talking about Zelda games in these sentences "Mario's difficulty is from platforms. Zelda's was from adventure"

Mario is described in a set, concrete word that we can all agree on the meaning of.sure people have a liking for one way of doing platforming then another, such as 64's set up vs 3d World's, but as I said much earlier we can all agree jumping is the focus.

With Zelda you describe is with the word "adventure." A pompous, airy word, full of romantic images, but little meaning. What practical actions make up adventuring? Here few Zelda fan agree on. Ever since Malstrom made his name by fostering divisions in fandoms we've had "puzzles vs mazes" As if mazes are not a kind of puzzles. Yet both sides buy into this silliness in the name tribalism. We've had splits come from how much combat should matter, and in this thread a seeming split on how much if the over world or dungeons matter more. And oh boy the things I could say about exploration and how vague a term that often is.
 

Dimmle

Member
Well action Adventure games, Adventure games tend to be quite linear. You also hit on the big problem talking about Zelda games in these sentences "Mario's difficulty is from platforms. Zelda's was from adventure"

Mario is described in a set, concrete word that we can all agree on the meaning of.sure people have a liking for one way of doing platforming then another, such as 64's set up vs 3d World's, but as I said much earlier we can all agree jumping is the focus.

With Zelda you describe is with the word "adventure." A pompous, airy word, full of romantic images, but little meaning. What practical actions make up adventuring? Here few Zelda fan agree on. Ever since Malstrom made his name by fostering divisions in fandoms we've had "puzzles vs mazes" As if mazes are not a kind of puzzles. Yet both sides buy into this silliness in the name tribalism. We've had splits come from how much combat should matter, and in this thread a seeming split on how much if the over world or dungeons matter more. And oh boy the things I could say about exploration and how vague a term that often is.
Zelda is about... using tools to fight monsters and solve puzzles? Not as concise as jumping but irrefutable.

And who is Malstrom?
 
No reason?

Despite Nintendo having the biggest ever install base last generation, the Zelda games they released during that generation had a remarkably small sales footprint (relative to their footprint in previous generations, where Zelda was the best-selling game in the genre until GTA came along) - even while other action-adventure games were soaring (GTA obviously, and Skyrim sold more copies on any of the platforms it was released for than any Zelda game has sold ever) by going open world.

Surely this indicates to Nintendo that their strategy for Zelda has been a relatively poor one?

Why do you always bring this flawed argument up in every Zelda thread?
It doesn't work that way...Nintendo would have never made Super Mario Galaxy 2 or Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze if they used this kind of whacked out logic. SEGA would have stopped making Sonic games in the Wii and DS generation seeing as they're blown away by both 2D and 3D Mario from a sales perspective...but again it doesn't work that way.
As long as they make money (Which for all we know could just be selling 1 or 2 million or so copies world wide in only 2 major regions) back on the project they're probably happy with how it's selling and seeing as Nintendo hasn't outright abandoned the franchise I'm thinking they're probably fine with what EAD has been doing with the series.

Also Skyrim isn't an action adventure game it's an action-rpg, it has almost no relation to Zelda outside of having a fantasy setting; bringing that game up in a Zelda discussion baffles me.
Also, despite GTA being an action-adventure game it's so different from Zelda that I'm TEN TIMES more baffled by your mention of it.

It's like saying "this cartoony Endless Runner game and this cartoony "Doodle Jump" clone sold more than NSMBU therefore Nintendo's strategy with 2D Mario platformers isn't successful"


I see we're back to unambiguously stating what defines Zelda for others.

The thing is...it really shouldn't be that way. Take the Mario fanbase for example, there are disagreements here and there (Some want Mario 64's structure, some want Galaxy's bombastic thematic elements, etc.) but everybody pretty much agrees that platforming is the defining aspect of the mainline series.

With Zelda there are a lot of fans who seem to actively ignore the "platforming"/"meat" of the series to overemphasize throwaway aspects that haven't been important to the franchises identity in any real way, shape, or form.
It's almost like if there was a segment of the Mario fanbase who wanted a Mario game that was centered around various throwing mechanics/combat scenarios because you threw turnips in Mario 2 (Ver.USA)
It's ridiculous.
:p
 

zeldablue

Member
Well action Adventure games, Adventure games tend to be quite linear. You also hit on the big problem talking about Zelda games in these sentences "Mario's difficulty is from platforms. Zelda's was from adventure"

Mario is described in a set, concrete word that we can all agree on the meaning of.sure people have a liking for one way of doing platforming then another, such as 64's set up vs 3d World's, but as I said much earlier we can all agree jumping is the focus.

With Zelda you describe is with the word "adventure." A pompous, airy word, full of romantic images, but little meaning. What practical actions make up adventuring? Here few Zelda fan agree on. Ever since Malstrom made his name by fostering divisions in fandoms we've had "puzzles vs mazes" As if mazes are not a kind of puzzles. Yet both sides buy into this silliness in the name tribalism. We've had splits come from how much combat should matter, and in this thread a seeming split on how much if the over world or dungeons matter more. And oh boy the things I could say about exploration and how vague a term that often is.

I just described it. By adventure I mean mazes/confusion and aimless sh**, desperately hoping you see something important. Endorphins flood your mind when you finally see something good. That's what I mean. That's the gameplay. Search and discover.

When they were making Mario and Zelda in the 80s, rejected ideas in Zelda went into Mario and rejected ideas in Mario went into Zelda. While Mario was tight, Zelda was loose. While Mario was action, Zelda was adventure. While Mario was to the point, Zelda was insanely cryptic.

Skyward Sword felt more like a Mario game over a Zelda game. It really fell off track in an attempt to reach the market Mario was soaking up. But that's not where Zelda gets its soul from. Aonuma knows this.
 
Ever since Malstrom made his name by fostering divisions in fandoms we've had "puzzles vs mazes" As if mazes are not a kind of puzzles.

They are, but they operate in different ways.

In Zelda games, "puzzles" resemble the kinds of challenges you'd find in an adventure game. You need to judge the atmosphere and the things you can interact with in a room, then find the "solution" that lets you proceed past a certain obstacle that stands in your way.

In past Zelda games, the "maze-like" qualities came from the layout of the entire dungeon. You had to keep exploring rooms, taking various routes until you found the right way to the center of the maze. Sometimes these rooms had puzzles in them, so you wouldn't necessarily find a way to the center unless you solved the puzzle (but sometimes there were alternate routes involving bombable walls, for instance).

The "puzzles vs. mazes" issue largely revolves around Zelda games gradually reducing the maze-like qualities and increasing the puzzles. Why is this a problem? It's because it's generally easier for people to replicate the solution to a puzzle (for example, on subsequent puzzles or subsequent playthroughs) than it is to memorize a path or strategy for getting through a maze.

In the most recent Zeldas, the dungeons have more or less led the player by the hand from one puzzle to another, and most of the puzzles are iterations of other puzzles found in the same dungeon (or previous dungeons). This has led to Zelda dungeons feeling very "played out" and not especially tricky to navigate or "solve."

Meanwhile, I think most people would probably still get thrown a little in the early Zeldas, simply because it's harder to be readily familiar with how to get through them (not to mention getting lost + lots of enemies opens you up to getting killed).

Why do you always bring this flawed argument up in every Zelda thread?
It doesn't work that way...

As the gaming population grows, and more people get into other games that do similar things to Zelda, why is it that Zelda is actually losing players?

That is not a flawed argument. If gaming is becoming bigger, and Zelda is becoming smaller (while at the same time becoming more expensive), Zelda will eventually cease to make the kinds of money it needs to to continue to exist (in its current form). So it needs to change form. Why the heck do you think Aonuma keeps talking up the nature of the world and breaking conventions every single time he makes a new game?

Also Skyrim isn't an action adventure game it's an action-rpg, it has almost no relation to Zelda outside of having a fantasy setting; bringing that game up in a Zelda discussion baffles me.

It's an open world game that offers a bigger/more impressive game world than Zelda.

Zelda is a series whose game world is one of its most defining features. Genre quirks and game mechanics aren't going to stop a game like Skyrim from stealing from its market if it does one or more of the basic level things (combat, items, overworld, dungeons) in a way that people like better than Zelda.
 
Zelda is about... using tools to fight monsters and solve puzzles? Not as concise as jumping but irrefutable.

And who is Malstrom?

If you wanna be super technical and rigid Zelda is basically an action-adventure title that often requires the player to use multiple non-disposable action-based items/"power ups" in combination with action-based player mechanics to solve highly interactive environmental puzzles, destroy or move around various non-puzzle obstructions in linear obstacle course-esque level design, engage in simple combat scenarios, and interact with NPCs.
:p
 

ibyea

Banned
I just described it. By adventure I mean mazes/confusion and aimless sh**, desperately hoping you see something important. Endorphins flood your mind when you finally see something good. That's what I mean. That's the gameplay.

I honestly hate mazes. The thing with Zelda dungeons is that for me they are not mazes. They are highly structured, even if sometimes the structure is invisible at first glance.
 

Ahnez

Member
Dungeons in Zelda, to me, feels like major puzzles with minor puzzles inside.

Since all the games after alttp have well detailed maps of the dungeons, the "maze" concept doesn't really work.. The difficult of the dungeons are things not visible on the map.

If (some) dungeons are on the overworld, maybe this could be changed, but I really doubt it :p
 
As the gaming population grows, and more people get into other games that do similar things to Zelda, why is it that Zelda is actually losing players?

It's not?
They seem to consistently sell 3-4 milion or so copies world wide with a few exceptions that vary from 1 million to 6 million here and there.
You're just making up issues that don't exist at this point.

Genre quirks and game mechanics aren't going to stop a game like Skyrim from stealing from its market.

Are you kidding me....genre quirks?
Heavy character customization that immediately effects both narrative and gameplay elements is something that isn't seen in any Zelda game or most action-adventure games for that matter.
A heavy emphasis on a large array of combat mechanics and stats (skill trees and the like) has only ever kind of been a thing in Zelda 2 (a game which was released all the way in the freakin' 80s and has incredibly rudimentary rpg elements)
Flat level design that emphasizes combat isn't something that is generally seen in Zelda or a lot of other action-adventure games.
A huge emphasis on an economy system that deals with both selling and buying multiple weapons, crafting items, and "power ups" isn't something that is seen in Zelda or most other action-adventure games.

These are defining elements that separate something like Skyrim and other action-rpgs from almost every Zelda game in existence. Why you're ignoring their most defining aspects that play a key role in deciding who they appeal to is beyond me, it really is. You can't just arbitrarily inflate one aspect of the series and say "this is the reason why this sold more than this unrelated thing!", it's illogical.

Skyrim didn't steal anything from Zelda, they're barely related.
 
Development cost comes from the salary required to pay the amount of employees involved in the creation of the game plus whatever tech, etc might need to be bought/licensed for it. I think people forget this very simple fact about dev costs. Look at home many people and outside companies worked on SS, then look at how long the development took, then compare against Wii Music or whatever and take a guess which probably cost more to make.

man every time I do this
 
It's not?
They seem to consistently sell 3-4 milion or so copies world wide with a few exceptions that vary from 1 million to 6 million here and there.

The average series sales, even stripping out the lower outliers, is lower now than it was before 2000. (I've posted on this before, and will find the data again if you really want to see it)

That's a negative trend.

Heavy character customization that immediately effects both narrative and gameplay elements is something that isn't seen in any Zelda game or most action-adventure games for that matter.

This might be why people buy Skyrim but not Zelda.

A heavy emphasis on a large array of combat mechanics and stats (skill trees and the like) has only ever kind of been a thing in Zelda 2 (a game which was released all the way in the freakin' 80s and has incredibly rudimentary rpg elements)

See above.

Flat level design that emphasizes combat isn't something that is generally seen in Zelda or a lot of other action-adventure games.

But it was seen in Zelda 1, Zelda II, and A Link to the Past. See above.

A huge emphasis on an economy system that deals with both selling and buying multiple weapons, crafting items, and "power ups" isn't something that is seen in Zelda or most other action-adventure games.

But it was seen in Zelda 1 and A Link to the Past, and on and off again in other Zeldas (most recently Skyward Sword and A Link Between Worlds). The difference, of course, being that it's more fun in Skyrim. Again, see above.
 

chadboban

Member
Man, seems like every Zelda thread comes to this. Well at least the map analysis was fun :)

Well, see you guys again whenever we get some more info, screens or some new footage.
 
The average series sales, even stripping out the lower outliers, is lower now than it was before 2000. (I've posted on this before, and will find the data again if you really want to see it)

That's a negative trend.

I've seen the data before, and plenty of people (even a mod no less) called you out for embellishing when you were peddling that "pre-Aonuma Zelda was more popular" bs before.


This might be why people buy Skyrim but not Zelda.

It's also the reason why people bought Skyrim over Super Mario Galaxy 2, so?
They're two different genres that appeal to different audiences; I wouldn't be surprised if nobody buys a Zelda game and thinks "I'm expecting there to be an option which allows me to play as a skinny Goron priestess with mind control abilities from the snowy mountains of Termina!"
Your arbitrary comparison will continue to be mute no matter how much you bring it up, they're two different genres with different expectations.
The people who invested in Skyrim probably never wanted to invest in Zelda or the Wii in the first place.

But it was seen in Zelda 1 and A Link to the Past, and on and off again in other Zeldas (most recently Skyward Sword and A Link Between Worlds). The difference, of course, being that it's more fun in Skyrim. Again, see above.

Because Skyrim is an action-rpg and action rpg's tend to focus on that kind of stuff; if it's not more fun and in-depth in a game who's whole genre is dedicated to it that would be kind of sad.
No one expects Zelda to have intricate crafting mechanics, stat systems, or an in-depth economy system and if they happen to be present they're usually just novelties or they're implemented in a way that's simple enough to serve the needs of an action adventure game without complicating things and muddying it's focus.


Also on the subject of level design. Zelda 1 is primitive, the devs were basically just winging it, and they wanted it to be different from Mario; of course it's level design is flat and straightforward.
Zelda 2 had a lot of important platforming in it, and (as someone else has already stated) ALTTP's level design was anything but flat. ALTTP's more "primitive" dungeon design was basically the direct ancestor of the modern obstacle course-esque stuff that has been a staple of Zelda for the past 16 or so years.
 

NathanS

Member
I just described it. By adventure I mean mazes/confusion and aimless sh**, desperately hoping you see something important. Endorphins flood your mind when you finally see something good. That's what I mean. That's the gameplay. Search and discover.

Right, to fully address this I will need to say my feelings on the word: "exploration."

It's an abstract word that is often used to to cover at least two distinct activities. Each I feel are better talked about by acknowledging them as separate activities, and using different words of each: Looking and Seeking.

Looking is when you search for something along the way, or in an area you know. You know your house ,for example, and may still need to look for something in it. In Zelda this would be looking for secrets like heart pieces

Seeking is when you do not know where you have to go and search for that, or do not know .how to get there and need to seek the right path. In the original Zelda you seek the dungeons. The difference here is fine, but has to do with "if you don't do this you can't win"

To help further illustrate the point, most games have looking, some may even focus on it well not having much if any seeking. Like most levels in Super Mario, lots of looking for secrets and secret exits, but only a handful of times do you seek the correct path.

Now you have clearly said you see Zelda as “Seeking” style game. But so isn't Metriod, and so is SM64. They are separated by the “how.” Zelda isn't a game about just walking around looking for the next dungeon, plot point or such, and neither are the other two said games. In Metriod how you seek is by jumping and shooting, in SM64 you seek by jumping. Zelda's done combat, puzzles (yes I included mazes as a type of puzzle), side quest all in distinct amounts in each game what mixture of those is the "right one" doesn't exist and each person latches on to the one they like best as the "right one."

Now the other thing you touch on and that LegendofLex's focus on is the emotion that Zelda games have stirred in you. This is a harder thing to talk about as taste varies, and what mechanic and presentations lead to which emotions for a person is very much ruled by taste.
 

zeldablue

Member
Right, to fully address this I will need to say my feelings on the word: "exploration."

It's an abstract word that is often used to to cover at least two distinct activities. Each I feel are better talked about by acknowledging them as separate activities, and using different words of each: Looking and Seeking.

Looking is when you search for something along the way, or in an area you know. You know your house ,for example, and may still need to look for something in it. In Zelda this would be looking for secrets like heart pieces

Seeking is when you do not know where you have to go and search for that, or do not know .how to get there and need to seek the right path. In the original Zelda you seek the dungeons. The difference here is fine, but has to do with "if you don't do this you can't win"

To help further illustrate the point, most games have looking, some may even focus on it well not having much if any seeking. Like most levels in Super Mario, lots of looking for secrets and secret exits, but only a handful of times do you seek the correct path.

Now you have clearly said you see Zelda as “Seeking” style game. But so isn't Metriod, and so is SM64. They are separated by the “how.” Zelda isn't a game about just walking around looking for the next dungeon, plot point or such, and neither are the other two said games. In Metriod how you seek is by jumping and shooting, in SM64 you seek by jumping. Zelda's done combat, puzzles (yes I included mazes as a type of puzzle), side quest all in distinct amounts in each game what mixture of those is the "right one" doesn't exist and each person latches on to the one they like best as the "right one."

Now the other thing you touch on and that LegendofLex's focus on is the emotion that Zelda games have stirred in you. This is a harder thing to talk about as taste varies, and what mechanic and presentations lead to which emotions for a person is very much ruled by taste.
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at but I'll try to explain it.

My main issue gameplay-wise is the developers not trusting the player. The "what do I do?" part of Zelda was taken out. There's no such thing as getting lost or stumped anymore. There's no faith in the player. In the newer Zeldas everything is created to be something important. No corner will leave you disappointed because every corner is probably designed to be important for main game progression.

There was a time when you could search something out and realize there was nothing there. Or you'd realize you got to a place too early. That experience made finding actual things to be much more rewarding. If you know every piece of environment was made for you to get to and that the game won't let you into places you shouldn't go to yet...then there's not as much value in "searching." You're not really figuring anything out if the only path was always the right path. It feels more real and more rewarding when you're in a natural place where not everything was placed on the earth to satisfy the player with instant gratification.

Also...newer Zeldas never place keys too far away from doors anymore. The dungeon rooms are super self-contained now because they don't want the player to get stuck on a door when they go through several rooms and miss a key in one of them. They protect us so much from getting lost in the newer titles. Almost every key is in the same room as the locked door for crying out loud. They don't trust that people can get lost and then figure out what to do. They just don't believe in people anymore.

When Aonuma talks about wonder, he's talking about keeping the player's expectations in mind. When the player can predict everything before it happens...it's not as fun. The fanbase is still their biggest buyer, and we're getting a little bored. A lot of the fun in Zelda came from not knowing. It came from the lack of guidance and the illusion of freedom. Seeing that disappear either through linearity or repeated gameplay/mechanics/story has left us seeing the patterns and not much else. There is no unexpected.

In design...it's a common critique not to fill the canvas with everything everywhere. Having space to breathe is important. In Zelda, I'm saying leave room to breathe and don't make everything "significant" because then it makes the whole package feel insignificant. You have to make it so not everything is an award. You have to let us be able to fall and follow the wrong paths. Feel uncertainty, even confusion.

Almost all of my complaints have been about pacing, balance, trust and smarter story-gameplay contextualization.

As for "tastes" of course it's about tastes. Opinions are tastes. :S Console Zelda games tend to rely on intangible things relating to atmosphere. Almost all of that has to do with believability and mystery. The "emotions stirring" comes from having a new or surprising experience. Aonuma needs to capture that feeling by actually doing something unexpected. But I think I was talking about gameplay. As in...stop designing everything to be super straight-forward and start treating us like we're smarter and can handle subtleties.

With all that said, I've always felt as though Zelda dungeons have been consistently awesome and have been getting more creative with each entry. I'm specifically calling out how linearity has gotten rid of a much needed layer of depth that I really enjoyed from the series. And that lack of depth feels shallow.
 

ReyVGM

Member
Also...newer Zeldas never place keys too far away from doors anymore. The dungeon rooms are super self-contained now because they don't want the player to get stuck on a door when they go through several rooms and miss a key in one of them. They protect us so much from getting lost in the newer titles. Almost every key is in the same room as the locked door for crying out loud. They don't trust that people can get lost and then figure out what to do. They just believe in people anymore.


This! I hate that.

That started to get really bad with Minish Cap. There's a locked door, the key is hiding in a pot in the very same room. Why lock the door in the first place? It's ridiculous.

BTW, since you're editing your post, it's "breathe" not "breath" :p
 

zeldablue

Member
This! I hate that.

That started to get really bad with Minish Cap. There's a locked door, the key is hiding in a pot in the very same room. Why lock the door in the first place? It's ridiculous.

BTW, since you're editing your post, it's "breathe" not "breath" :p

Thank you. :p

When TMC came out it became my least favorite Zelda. I think maybe this was why? I had just played ALttP, LA and the Oracles. So yeah, the drop in "non-linearity" probably ruined my experience.

It felt like all my answers were the right answer, basically. I'd like them to throw in the option to be wrong sometimes.

Even ALBW does this, so I don't think it's going away.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom