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[y2dvd]

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What does the top text say?

 

[Abounder]

I think I dont understand French satire. On my side of the Atlantic, racist caricatures of a black politician as a monkey or a Hasidic Jew with a long nose dont go over well, regardless of the satirical message or content being conveyed. Those images are generally thought to be in such poor taste, that indulging them in any way is a bad idea.

South Park anyone? It's practically an American pop culture icon, although to be fair to your post some groups have been expressed offense and have tried to take it down. Thankfully those groups never got far.

 

[Raistlin]

What does the top text say?

all is forgiven


French media interpreted that as meaning Muhammad is forgiving the cartoonists for lampooning him. I suspect it is far less apologetic, and instead is saying that Muhammad forgives the terrorists. In other words that the terrorists are completely wrong, and should feel guilty that their own prophet has to tell them this.

At least that's my personal interpretation.

 

[Jisgsaw]

No, I was just highlighting that to show that there is a very clear historical and artistic precedent for the feelings muslims have towards representations of people.

It's a shame this has turned into such a negative thing, because if you look at the art this particular quirk has created, it's quite fascinating and beautiful.

In a sense, it's something that has made humanity and the history of art richer.

1) I don't see how religious art preference should preceed the cultural background of a country, especially when said country fought hundreds of years to get rid of another religion (be that a good decision or not).
2) I'm actually pretty sure there were some representations of Muhammed by muslims, even if they got destroyed.

I generally don't like insulting people's religious beliefs. When I go to a buddhist temple I don't wear shorts. When I am taken to a Kim-Il statue I photograph it as the locals hope. My wife wears a scarf when we are in muslim countries. I think it's polite.

Yeah, but in those exemple you are going knowingly in a religious place. In which case, imo, you have to adapt to their customs.
In this case, we are talking about a low number satirical paper, in a country overwhelmingly catholic/atheist, with a laic state. You can follow islamic rules if you want as courtesy, but in no way should it be expected that islamic rules shall be follow by every one in the country.

Uh what? When is unnecessarily(hint I use this modifier for a reason, please don't remove context from my arguments) offending someone ever productive?


Again, you could totally show strength against terrorism without the cartoons.

People conflating the Muhammad cartoons as if they represent some just political or social movement is rampant. They exist only to mock people who follow Islam, its intellectually dishonest to suggest otherwise. Whether or not you care if other people are mocked is your prerogative but let's not disingenuously pretend that they dont have easily quantifiable consquences and detract towards a peaceful world.

No, their cartoon almost exclusevely exist to criticize some serious point, in a form of a satyr.
Most if not all Muhammed caricatures where used to criticize people using violence in his name.

Apart from the threats made against them for their 200 Episode special, did they ever get in trouble for their Super Best Friends episode? I can't remember there being much talk about it back then.

(about South Park)
No, which shows the whole hypocrisie of all the "do not draw Muhammed" thing.

I think I dont understand French satire. On my side of the Atlantic, racist caricatures of a black politician as a monkey or a Hasidic Jew with a long nose dont go over well, regardless of the satirical message or content being conveyed. Those images are generally thought to be in such poor taste, that indulging them in any way is a bad idea.

As stated plenty of times, french culture basicaly mocks everything. Tha favorite national pass time, even if lot of people wouldn't admit it, is gossiping and mocking other people, more so than in any other country I've been.
And as said in this article, in a country with freedom of speech, it's up to the lectorate to judge the rightness and tasteness of a paper.

 

[ibyea]

Article says it better than I could, yes, in many cases they don't mean to be racist, but there is still a significant aspect of punching down in the satire that we should be aware of. "It's satire" doesn't excuse the mocking of marginalized communities: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/12/7518349/charlie-hebdo-racist

 

[gutter_trash]

What does the top text say?

All is forgiven

 

[Elchele]

Really good cover. It could become an historic cover, in pop culture
I would even order an art print of it for my wall, really nicely done.

 

[Ourobolus]

What does the top text say?

All is forgiven.

 

[ibyea]

In an Unequal World, Mocking All Serves the Powerful

 

[Spaced Harrier]

And in the even more unequal world there is no mocking at all.


Looking forward to buying my copy tomorrow.

 

[KingSnake]

So mocking just some makes the world equal. Ok.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

In an Unequal World, Mocking All Serves the Powerful

What existing power does this cover of Charlie Hebdo serve? I mean it's a nice one-liner but what the fuck is he even talking about..

 

[SigSig]

Joe Sacco's response is becoming more and more relevant the more this story develops.

this so much.
For anyone who has not already seen it:

 

[ibyea]

So mocking just some makes the world equal. Ok.

Read the article for better comprehension:

The question for writers and artists, then, is not whether we ought to limit ourselves, but how we already limit ourselves. In a field dominated by privileged voices, it's not enough to say "Mock everyone!" In an unequal world, satire that mocks everyone equally ends up serving the powerful. And in the context of brutal inequality, it is worth at least asking what preexisting injuries we are adding our insults to.

 

[Siegcram]

In an Unequal World, Mocking All Serves the Powerful

Satire doesn't serve anyone.
Never mind the fact that the powerful are the actual target of a hugely disproportionate amount of satire from every angle.

Very nothing article.

 

[ibyea]

What existing power does this cover of Charlie Hebdo serve? I mean it's a nice one-liner but what the fuck is he even talking about..

It is a general take on satire and comedy that makes no thought on punching up or down, not necessarily a Charlie Hebdo specific. But I thought it was relevant to the issue under discussion.

 

[theignoramus]

Article says it better than I could, yes, in many cases they don't mean to be racist, but there is still a significant aspect of punching down in the satire that we should be aware of. "It's satire" doesn't excuse the mocking of marginalized communities: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/12/7518349/charlie-hebdo-racist

This article articulates what I was saying in a more complete way:

Charlie Hebdo's satire makes high-minded points, but indulges racism along the way.
This is a regular pattern in Charlie Hebdo's cartoons, even if you see the two-layer satire they often play at. People of color are routinely portrayed with stereotypical features — Arabs given big noses, Africans given big lips — that are widely and correctly considered racist. These features are not necessary for the jokes to work, or for the characters to be recognizable. And yet Charlie Hebdo has routinely included them, driving home a not-unreasonable sense that the magazine's cartoons indulged racism.

 

[ibyea]

Satire doesn't serve anyone.

Yes, yes it does. That is the point of satire! To get a point point across!

 

[Funky Papa]

This article articulates what I was saying in a more complete way:

That article ignores that Frenchmen are portrayed in comparable terms. French satire, particularly that of the pseudo-underground persuasion, is meant to be caustic like that.

 

[ibyea]

That article ignores that Frenchmen are portrayed in comparable terms. French satire, particularly that of the pseudo-underground persuasion, is meant to be caustic like that.

You are committing the is-ought fallacy. Just because something is that way doesn't mean it ought to be that way. In this case, just because French satire is that way, doesn't mean some of its practices is not beholden to criticism.

 

[Siegcram]

Yes, yes it does. That is the point of satire! To get a point point across!

It has a purpose, yes. It serves something, not someone.
(Good) satire isn't about scoring political points.

It's meant to be thought-provoking on an issue concerning everyone.

 

[Funky Papa]

You are committing the is-ought fallacy. Just because something is that way doesn't mean it ought to be that way. In this case, just because French satire is that way, doesn't mean some of its practices is not beholden to criticism.

I didn't say it can't be criticised. What I said is that calling CH racist because of its use of stereotypes is misguided.

Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Magni]

I'm actually surprised that those artists had long enough arms to punch down at those kidnap and rape victims.

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[ibyea]

It has a purpose, yes. It serves something, not someone.
(Good) satire isn't about scoring political points.

It's meant to be thought-provoking on an issue concern everyone.

You say:

It serves something, not someone.
(Good) satire isn't about scoring political points.

And then say:

It's meant to be thought-provoking on an issue concern everyone.

I am sorry, but how does your last sentence does not involve politics and serving someone? You are talking about people's issues right there. Which politics serves an important component of, whether you like it or not.

Edit: Btw, read about Gulliver's Travel, which is touted as an example of great satire. If that isn't scoring political points, I don't know what is.

 

[The Incarnation]

If this drives someone into terrorism they're a lost cause anyway.

Never underestimate what mocking a person born into a religion will do for it. In many respects it's like a family member. There's no choice in the matter.

Literally billions of people are victims of religion, even worse, most don't see themselves as victims, thus are unwitting slaves.

 

[ibyea]

I didn't say it can't be criticised. What I said is that calling CH racist because of its use of stereotypes is misguided.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I am not putting words in your mouth. You said:

That article ignores that Frenchmen are portrayed in comparable terms. French satire, particularly that of the pseudo-underground persuasion, is meant to be caustic like that.

 

[Funky Papa]

I am not putting words in your mouth. You said:

Again, I didn't say it can't be criticised.

 

[ibyea]

Again, I didn't say it can't be criticised.

Okay, gotcha. I misunderstood.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

It is a general take on satire and comedy that makes no thought on punching up or down, not necessarily a Charlie Hebdo specific. But I thought it was relevant to the issue under discussion.

It rings a bit hollow unless he can link it to specific events where straight satire is wielded to further the interests of an oppressing power on a marginalized community. I don't want to have to guess that it's about, for example, Pegida propaganda, but then I'd have to think of a way in which people are confusing anti-immigration sentiment with 'jokes on everyone' style satire like South Park. And that's rather difficult to do.

 

[sakipon]

all is forgiven


French media interpreted that as meaning Muhammad is forgiving the cartoonists for lampooning him. I suspect it is far less apologetic, and instead is saying that Muhammad forgives the terrorists. In other words that the terrorists are completely wrong, and should feel guilty that their own prophet has to tell them this.

At least that's my personal interpretation.

This is how I also originally understood it. The terrorists did something bad and Mohammed is sad for it. Yet he forgives them and life can continue. Though that is exactly how a Christian God supposedly works (forgiving sinners) so I guess that makes me understand the image like this.

Though in theory it could mean both, him forgiving both the cartoonists and the terrorists.

 

[Lizardus]

This is how I also originally understood it. The terrorists did something bad and Mohammed is sad for it. Yet he forgives them and life can continue. Though that is exactly how a Christian God supposedly works (forgiving sinners) so I guess that makes me understand the image like this.

Though in theory it could mean both, him forgiving both the cartoonists and the terrorists.

personally I think it says that folks from CH are forgiving them and CH believes that even Mohammed is saddened by the terrorist act.

 

[KingSnake]

Read the article for better comprehension:

I read it. Now you think about it. Does the magazine make fun of everybody in equal quantity? Or does it make fun of everybody according to the events happening around them? Because in the first case the theory might be true (although good luck measuring the quantity of satire), but in the second case the theory is totally wrong. Because satire should not aim for false equality, but should criticize whatever happens wrong at some point in time.

 

[adj_noun]

personally I think it says that folks from CH are forgiving them and CH believes that even Mohammed is saddened by the terrorist act.

That's how I saw it.

 

[Jisgsaw]

personally I think it says that folks from CH are forgiving them and CH believes that even Mohammed is saddened by the terrorist act.

I have two parrallel interpretation:
1) Terrorists are no aprt of Islam
2) General criticism on last week's event: terrorist attacks, and the hypocrisy of everyone suddendly saying "I'm Charlie" for whatever reason, and forgiving Charlie Hebod, despite having heavy problems with it.

I really like it.

 

[Abounder]

This article articulates what I was saying in a more complete way:

It's fine for satire and comedy to "indulge" in racism like caricatures while making their points, a la South Park, The Interview, stand up comedians, Charlie Hedbo, Mark Twain, etc. Using such caricatures is largely part of the point.

 

[Khaz]

this so much.
For anyone who has not already seen it:

The argument about Siné is missing so much context it's not even funny.

- Siné was fired after making a joke about one of Sarkozy's son marrying a jewish heiress
- Most Charlie writers at the time criticised the firing
- Siné fought the firing in courts and won, Charlie Hebdo being condemned for unfair dismissal
- Editor at the time Philippe Val stepped down a year later. He is well known to be a friend of the Sarkozy family.

 

[Alx]

I think I dont understand French satire. On my side of the Atlantic, racist caricatures of a black politician as a monkey or a Hasidic Jew with a long nose dont go over well, regardless of the satirical message or content being conveyed. Those images are generally thought to be in such poor taste, that indulging them in any way is a bad idea.

French humor is very racist at its core. Look at famous comedian Louis de Funès, doing blackface or mocking Jewish culture...

Spoiler

That movie, "the Adventures of Rabbi Jacob", is actually the opposite of racist. I can see how some comical tropes may startle some people oversea though...

 

[a secret-boss]

But Charlie's Head Though

 

[Miss.Selfdestruct]

Can't believe they're gonna insult all devoted Muslims to send the middle finger to some extremist terrorists. They have no integrity.

This attack opened a nasty can of worms. I see that as the biggest issue here. If a country allows its people for freedom of speech, even when it's disrespectful to the governement and local religions. Are there lines that should not be crossed?

It's easy to write off and laugh at a cartoon depicting the prophet, jesus, the pope, etc. when you don't give a fuck nor share those values instilled by those religious practices. But at the same time, it's not right for any side to be able to bully the other based on the actions of a very small group of extremists that are far from representing the majority.

 

[nilbog21]

French humor is very racist at its core. Look at famous comedian Louis de Funès, doing blackface or mocking Jewish culture...

Spoiler

That movie, "the Adventures of Rabbi Jacob", is actually the opposite of racist. I can see how some comical tropes may startle some people oversea though...

That's mostly because French people and history is much less tarnished by racism against blacks or jews. Painting your face black is not inherently insulting in France. Why would it be? Is there something wrong with being black? It's just not how French people think... and its why many black american intellectuals and artists fled to France

 

[guggnichso]

Article says it better than I could, yes, in many cases they don't mean to be racist, but there is still a significant aspect of punching down in the satire that we should be aware of. "It's satire" doesn't excuse the mocking of marginalized communities: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/12/7518349/charlie-hebdo-racist

Actually, it does.

 

[theignoramus]

It's fine for satire and comedy to "indulge" in racism like caricatures while making their points, a la South Park, The Interview, stand up comedians, Charlie Hedbo, Mark Twain, etc. Using such caricatures is largely part of the point.

And it's "fine"for people to not be remotely tickled by the "biting" satire of a black person depicted as a monkey to make some sort of ham fisted point about right wing agitprop.

 

[Khaz]

That's mostly because French people and history is much less tarnished by racism against blacks or jews. Painting your face black is not inherently insulting in France. Why would it be? Is there something wrong with being black? It's just not how French people think... and its why many black american intellectuals and artists fled to France

I'm sorry what? Do you know we had sort of a war in our country 70ish years ago? Jews were not treated kindly during that time.
Antisemitism is also a big touchy subject, jews being subject to hate and violence since the beginning of Christianity. Europe is the reason there is an Israel.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Front page of Les Inrocks:

 

[Magni]

Front page of Les Inrocks:

Perfect.

 

[theignoramus]

That's mostly because French people and history is much less tarnished by racism against blacks or jews. Painting your face black is not inherently insulting in France. Why would it be? Is there something wrong with being black? It's just not how French people think... and its why many black american intellectuals and artists fled to France

It's true that the French are and have been more accepting of racial integration than other European societies. Key word being integration. Embrace French values and culture and the French are hospitable whether you're yellow, brown, or black. But if you arent manifestly French in your mannerisms, values and culture, look the fuck out. The French are notoriously hostile towards groups culturally alien to them.

 

[Mimosa97]

French humor is very racist at its core. Look at famous comedian Louis de Funès, doing blackface or mocking Jewish culture...

Spoiler

That movie, "the Adventures of Rabbi Jacob", is actually the opposite of racist. I can see how some comical tropes may startle some people oversea though...

Reminds me of the movie " The Untouchables ". I don't recall hearing a single black french calling the movie " racist " either in real life or on the internet. It was a huge hit in France among all ethnic groups. It was just a movie about the son of an African immigrant who basically save a rich white disabled dude from depression and helped him find love and happiness.

Then i read a few articles about the movie in american newspapers. Almost all of them were calling the movie racist and of bad taste. Lol.

 

[Mimosa97]

It's true that the French are and have been more accepting of racial integration than other European societies. Key word being integration. Embrace French values and culture and the French are hospitable whether you're yellow, brown, or black. But if you arent manifestly French in your mannerisms, values and culture, look the fuck out. The French are notoriously hostile towards groups culturally alien to them.

I'm French and it used to be like this. But our government have been trying to do it " the american way ", allowing communitarianism and glorifying " differences ". Abandoning the idea of assimilation and calling it " integration ". And in this we have failed.

 

[Mimosa97]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZyHQljawdE

New video of the Kouachi Brothers fleeing the murders scene

You can see them taking their sweet time to get in the car and flee. One of them is shouting " We avenged the prophet muhammad ".

At least the streets were empty so no one else was hurt.

 

[dofry]

Reminds me of the movie " The Untouchables ". I don't recall hearing a single black french calling the movie " racist " either in real life or on the internet. It was a huge hit in France among all ethnic groups. It was just a movie about the son of an African immigrant who basically save a rich white disabled dude from depression and helped him find love and happiness.

Then i read a few articles about the movie in american newspapers. Almost all of them were calling the movie racist and of bad taste. Lol.

The Intouchables.