Why else would they be waving it? The flag doesn't stand for anything else despite how much people try to deny it. It's not like it was also made a symbol for Dolphin free tuna sometime in the 90s, it has been a symbol of oppression all of it's existence
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Stories differ after Confederate flag wavers crash boy's birthday party
- Thread starter Dram
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Why else would they be waving it? The flag doesn't stand for anything else despite how much people try to deny it. It's not like it was also made a symbol for Dolphin free tuna sometime in the 90s, it has been a symbol of oppression all of it's existence
Big Baybee
Member
People aren't stupid. People in the South know the history behind that flag and know why blacks don't like it.
I think it's worth leaving at least some room in your head for the possibility that yes, the birthday party revelers were the real instigators here.
But I also think a reasonable person would conclude that the more likely possibility is that those who paraded down the road waving a symbol of slavery and oppression are the instigators, not a bunch of people at a children's birthday party.
But I also think a reasonable person would conclude that the more likely possibility is that those who paraded down the road waving a symbol of slavery and oppression are the instigators, not a bunch of people at a children's birthday party.
Gentleman Jack
Member
It's an educated guess. I don't know what you're trying to prove about people who'd wave a symbol like the confederate battle flag around for 'innocent' reasons. The fact that this entire dustup is down to racism is just another data point in the 'flag is drenched in racist overtones' column.
FadedRevolution
Member
You know I'm going to start flying the NazI flag now since flags are no longer used to represent ideals and actions.
Veritigo_X
Member
That's literally what the flag stands for, no need to read minds. When someone waves a flag they are waving an ideal and the ideals of the confederate flag have been made abundantly clear over the last century. It never changed meanings so why would the beliefs of those waving it change?
Herpes Reasons
Banned
So every single person who has this flag is racist? Ok. Well, it's nice to know that you all prefer to make generalizations about individuals rather than getting to know them individually and actually ask why they hold the flag. Good to know.
Agent Gibbs
Member
The Swastika is actually a hindu symbol that symbolises good fortune and is well read more HERE
The confederate flag is a similar instance, a flag that may have been originally created for different reasons that has become associated with such a negative thing that it cannot shun that appearance
As a matter of curiosity, do you personally hold/fly/display the flag? If so, why do you do so?
SomedayTheFire
Member
Well, that's what is is really isn't it? It's the confederate flag, who fought to keep slavery and the existing structures of oppression against black people.
FadedRevolution
Member
Would you hold the same defense for someone waving an ISIS flag or a NazI flag?
Big Baybee
Member
What I'm saying is most people know what the fuck that flag means. So if you are flying some shit that was literally the symbol of oppression and literally used by terrorists in this country to this day, don't be surprised when someone assumes you're a fucking racist.
Gentleman Jack
Member
If you're trying to make me feel bad, it's not working.
I mean, maybe there are a few Confederate flag historical experts around who aren't racist, but in general, if you fly a flag that was used to justify slavery, lynchings, etc., then the burden of proof is on you to convince the people you meet that you're not a racist.
You don't have a right to do whatever you want and not be judged for it.
JustAnotherMike
Member
This is the most grade school level of a story I've ever seen.
Swastika was stolen by Nazi. Confederate flag was created by the Confederates, who specifically stated what they stood for in their own words when they declared secessions.
Bush is full of shit. Growing up in the south, I saw confederate flags/symbols on vehicles (mostly trucks ironically) all the time and there's never been an instance where people (black or otherwise) started yelling and throwing rocks because someone had a confederate flag on their car. Even still, if you're a "victim," why would you be hurling racial slurs instead of general terms like "asshole" and "motherfucker?" If a Jewish person started yelling at me or throwing rocks, I'm not about to start spouting racial epithets just because I'm pissed.
People parade around with THE symbol of racism, yes I am going to lean them probably being racist. What other reasons could there be?
Maybe someone from overseas who isn't aware of the context and just thinks it's a cool "American" symbol would be exempt, but in the US, and especially the deep south, you'd have to be pretty fucking dense not to know what the flag is about.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Nope. I don't fly or display it, nor would I ever. I do have some people that I consider friends who do and are not racist. It took me awhile to realize that not everyone who holds the flag dear is racist and had to be confronted with that reality before I accepted it. My point in all of this is that if you're going to be so quick to label someone a terrorist or racist because of a flag and are unwilling to get to know said person, well, I'd say from personal experience you may be condemning a person not worthy of such condemnation.
The only good thing about the Confederate Flag is that when I see someone with one or with some kind of Confederate Flag paraphernalia I know everything I ever needed to about them and can just avoid them forever.
It takes a special kind of willful ignorance or malicious racism to assume that flag as a symbol of anything associated with yourself.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
And does racist = terrorist? Does a racist = ISIS?
soundscream
Member
What exactly do they hold dear about the flag?
Veritigo_X
Member
That's on them for flying a racist flag. Why should I go through the trouble of asking each person waving the confederate flag if they are racist or not? So I can find that mythical "not racist confederate flag waver"? Waving that flag says all that I need to hear.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
When its in support of a violently racist institution like the confederate south? I'd say its getting there yeah
So at best they're ignorant. No thanks, my empathy meter runs low for people who know what that flag represented in the past (and present). Their personal likes or beliefs of the flag today literally don't matter. The mere association with it, despite the history and outcry ,means they're stubborn assholes. There are other symbols to attach your "heritage" to.
Protest for a flag that supported Rape, slavery, murder, Burning crosses, lynching, The KKK, whipping, terrorism of blacks and whites that help them, Treachery, what else am I missing?
It's not an argument that flag represents hatred, racism, and slavery; that southern heritage nonsense can jump off a bridge.
FadedRevolution
Member
So you can only be a terrorist if you are part of ISIS?
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Again, does holding a racist view equate to ISIS which BEHEADS people, massacres children, throws gays off of buildings, etc? Want to refer to someone as racist? Couldn't care less. Want to compare someone holding a flag to ISIS? For crying out loud. May as well compare George Bush to Hitler.
You do realize that the person I originally responded to compared those riding with the flag to ISIS...right?
Herpes Reasons
Banned
LiquidSword
Member
You are missing the point. They were saying how flags represent ideals. If someone had an ISIS flag you could probably assume some things about them. Same with a nazi flag and same with the confederate flag.
The problem is that not everybody has the luxury of getting to know the people who fly the flag.
You said you did a lot of soul searching in regards to your friends flying the flag. Why do they fly the flag? If it's a matter of heritage, what heritage are they really celebrating? Even if it's not one of racism, it may very well still be one rooted in ignorance. Why sugarcoat that?
Herpes Reasons
Banned
A few of them are a states rights kinda folk. A few of them were raised to see value in it by their daddy, granddaddy, etc. We have debates about it quite often and from my perspective, it seems they either are ignorant, almost like a Jehovah's Witness denying that their organization runs a business of brainwashing, or they just hold the 'it's a flag and i'm tired of the politically correctness so I'll continue flying it'. So while I have no problem categorizing them as ignorant fools, racist I wouldn't. Now don't get me wrong, living in GA and driving through Doulgasville quite often, there's definitely a problem of racism.
Besides the fact that you have a dumb straw man here that doesn't take into account that the Nazi flag itself was never a Hindu symbol, the confederate battle flag was literally made to represent white mastery over the world. So yes, these dudes will always be labeled racists as long as they cling to racist symbols.
Being that I'm not a liberal, I don't really give a shit about the "rights" of oppressors. Rights are manmade constructs, they're not handed down from the heavens; they are secured by victory in a struggle.
Violence on the part of oppressed people is justified against oppressors. They are not equivalent actions. So no, I don't care if some morons flying confederate flags get rocks thrown at them. Nor do I care if the same happens to Nazis, KKK members, homophobes, transphobes, capitalists, red fascist "communists" or anyone else who is knowingly exploiting or oppressing people. Whether or not that's the right thing to do in a particular circumstance is a matter of strategy for the larger struggle but I'm not going to cry injustice because someone on the lower rung knocked someone on the higher rung down a peg or two.
User 73706
Banned
While ISIS has "threatened freedom" by indoctrinating scores of countryside in an attempt to establish a caliphate over the course of its 16-year existence and roughly 2-year offensive campaign, the Confederacy "threatened freedom" by, well, stripping an entire subset of races of their freedoms, occupying an area roughly half the size of the entire European continent, waging war on the American homefront, and sowing the seeds for institutionalized subjugation (police forces originally founded to handle large numbers of freed slaves, allowing Confederate populations to re-integrate with the Union with a mere slap on the wrist, etc.) for the next several hundreds of years, the effects of which we still feel today. Food for thought.
Didn't the guy who originally designed the confederate battle flag literally talk about the symbolism behind it being about the superiority of the white man?
It was created for the exact same thing it stands for now - racism.
FadedRevolution
Member
I guarantee if this was a hate symbol towards whites people would have no problem getting rid of it but since it is a hate symbol towards blacks people have problems with it being seen as such.
It wouldn't surprise me if the party goers were the ones that started the shouting match. It wouldn't surprise me that both they and levi bush and his buddies are both lying through their teeth about what happened. But when you get down to it, 10 bubbas in 7 trucks decided it would be a good idea to put every confederate flag in the county on their trucks and go drive right through what I assume is a black neighborhood. And even if they didn't "shoot first" so to speak, they decided to stick around and make things worse.
User 73706
Banned
This is the same reason the KKK wasn't dismantled overnight day one.
No burning cross on my front lawn, and my husband George gets to release his anger before coming home. Racism is dead!
TheRagnCajun
Member
That's a good quote and gets to the heart of what a flag or a symbol is. It is defined by what others interpret it to mean. Just like the meaning of words change. Its possible for the flag to be both a symbol of southern pride/heritage, as well as a symbol of oppression and hate, it all depends on who you ask. Arguing who is correct is pointless. Its a symbol and its meaning is relative.
The crux of the debate here is that if we are all going to live in harmonious community, and part of your community interprets that flag as racist, you would want to make concessions out of kindess and respect for others. The symbol is not as important as peace and community. By giving up the symbol, you are not giving up your ideals or heritage.
Right
The flag being used as a positive symbol is effectively impossible as long as it still exists as a symbol of hatred. If people really want to transform it into something good, they need to be willing to fight the hatred behind the flag, and not just deny that it exists. Until they are willing to get to that point, then, no, you don't get to fly your stupid flag without people thinking the worst.
old manatee
Banned
It's 2015. If you still rock a Confederate flag you are either a fucking asshole, a stone-cold racist, or a Civil War reenactor.
The last thing you are is a victim.
Yeah, and the KKK would've been way worse if Southern Democrats had their way and weren't obstructed by "carpetbaggers" and states rights haters like President Grant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_Act_of_1871_%28third_act%29#As_later_amended_and_codified_as_section_1983
I'm trying to imagine what would have happened if the South truly did get whatever they wanted, because we often think that they did based on the obvious, but we don't realize shit could have been way worse. And of course some people want us to return to that era.
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