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[Magnet_Man]

Have a mini-map, Hold L, have a cursor appear over mini-map instantly, select with A
Press B, fast select a teammate or spawn pawn to jump to with A

Having the map of the entire arena on the HUD would break the game. It'd be far too easy to ambush and coordinate efforts with such a blatant way to see your opponents movements via their ink paths. Even stuff like CoD knows why they can't put the whole map on the screen at all times.

The fact that you have to look away from the screen to see the map is what balances it. It's a risk/reward system that takes a limitation of the system's hardware and makes it a gameplay dynamic. Being upset that you have to look away from the screen in this instance is identical to complaining that you are out of stamina while playing a Souls game or out of special meter in a fighting game. The only difference is that instead of managing an in-game resource, the resource you're balancing is your sight.

The fact that you can come up with alternate controls schemes for Super Jumping is irrelevant. Having the full map visible at all time would irrevocable imbalance the game, yet having the full map available is the only thing that permits the Super Jump mechanic to exist. You cannot take away one aspect of the balance and expect to keep the other.

 

[greg400]

Having the map of the entire arena on the HUD would break the game. It'd be far too easy to ambush and coordinate efforts with such a blatant way to see your opponents movements via their ink paths. Even stuff like CoD knows why they can't put the whole map on the screen at all times.

The fact that you have to look away from the screen to see the map is what balances it. It's a risk/reward system that takes a limitation of the system's hardware and makes it a gameplay dynamic. Being upset that you have to look away from the screen in this instance is identical to complaining that you are out of stamina while playing a Souls game or out of special meter in a fighting game. The only difference is that instead of managing an in-game resource, the resource you're balancing is your sight.

The fact that you can come up with alternate controls schemes for Super Jumping is irrelevant. Having the full map visible at all time would irrevocable imbalance the game, yet having the full map available is the only thing that permits the Super Jump mechanic to exist. You cannot take away one aspect of the balance and expect to keep the other.

Lmao, read the rest of the thread. I'm not wasting my time responding to shit that I've already had arguments over one page back.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176517782&postcount=323

What does pirating gba games have to do with Splatoon? That's the only thing that would make you comment relevant to that topic and as far as I can tell the 2 have zero relation. Just being plain with you man.

That's the point, it has nothing to do with the topic that is the gamepad yet here he is claiming it's "waste of time" to discuss gamepad mechanics in Splatoon with me. I guess you're much better off discussing his pirated GBA games in this thread instead?

 

[Crayon]

The concept of the gamepad has actually grown on me. I'm more open minded than many when it comes to novel devices but it took a long time to even consider the gamepad worth trying. The gamepad was a mistake. I have no doubt.

A 249usd system with 2 pro controllers and a game and a properly marketable name would have done better.

 

[Pro from Dover]

No.
The Gamepad is VR in your hand. Another step in the progression of Nintendo strapping this shit to your face.

 

[sörine]

Eh what now?

*looks at PS4*

Sony recovered from the PS3 pretty well.

We're not sure if PS3 itself was a profitable endeavor overall, that's what I'm talking about. Rather than throw good money after bad Nintendo chose to cut losses and ride things out holding price.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

Considering two of the best games for the console basically need the gamepad to play (Splatoon and Mario Maker) no.

 

[vainglorious]

No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market.

So uh, no.

 

[greg400]

No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market.

So uh, no.

 

[sörine]

No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market.

So uh, no.

Sony (PS1 dualshock), Nintendo (Wii remote plus) and Microsoft (XOne Kinect) all have before. Changing control interface isn't the end of the world.

 

[Jigorath]

We're not sure if PS3 itself was a profitable endeavor overall

It definitely wasn't profitable overall but it still sold 80m consoles and gave Sony a good jumping off point for the PS4 so *shrugs*.

 

[lOTl]

No Gamepad.
Weaker Hardware.
Wii Sports2 HD remaster infinity
Shovelware galore...

Yeah, Nintendo screwed up the Wii U by going after the core gamer demographic when they could have made big profits chasing the blue ocean?

 

[sörine]

It definitely wasn't profitable overall but it still sold 80m consoles and gave Sony a good jumping off point for the PS4 so *shrugs*.

Right, but Nintendo isn't Sony. Choosing less userbase over more losses is sort of the position they had to take. I mean if videogames were Sony's entire business, how do you think PS3 would've set them up for the future?

 

[Jams775]

Sony (PS1 dualshock), Nintendo (Wii remote plus) and Microsoft (XOne Kinect) all have before. Changing control interface isn't the end of the world.

Those all enhanced the controls not take controls away.

 

[sörine]

Those all enhanced the controls not take controls away.

Microsoft removed Kinect.

 

[vainglorious]

Not the same thing. That example is Nintendo providing more choice to its market with additional hardware and hardware features. We're specifically discussing the removal of feature dependent hardware for the Wii U. You need a gamepad for the Wii U.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yes and 2 games don't validate the gamepad.

It's not like people say Nintendo should have stopped selling the gamepad altogether, they could just bundle the gamepad with Mario Maker for instance. Even better they'd have to include a pro control scheme if they did that for all their games and that's great for everyone.

They certainly didn't make software that sold the gamepad, they made software that sold the Wii U despite all it's shortcomings.

 

[Jams775]

Microsoft removed Kinect.

But did they ever get to really implement it into any games where they'd have to patch it out or did it come optional for all games? See with the Wii U, they'd have to patch a lot of games that made use of that controller. There's a lot of effort doing that and you really need a way to get those patches to people that didn't hook up their Wii U's. Edit: Like Zombi U for instance. They'd have to rework the entire game. Then if you release a console set without those controls and their are discs in the wild without that patch, you run the risk of incompatibility which is probably a big no no for Nintendo.

 

[greg400]

Not the same thing. That example is Nintendo providing more choice to its market with additional hardware and hardware features. We're specifically discussing the removal of feature dependent hardware for the Wii U.

"No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market"

Nintendo purposefully segregated the market by releasing the new 3DS. Same end result no matter how you want to twist it.

 

[vainglorious]

"No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market"

Nintendo purposefully segregated the market by releasing the new 3DS. Same end result no matter how you want to twist it.

Let me rephrase that then. The Wii U market is barely alive and fragmenting it would do more harm than good. Comparing the Wii U to the 3DS and 3DS companion hardware is a game of apples and oranges.

 

[greg400]

Let me rephrase that then. The Wii U market is barely alive and fragmenting it would do more harm than good. Comparing the Wii U to the 3DS and 3DS companion hardware is a game of apples and oranges.

It may have been able to expand the user-base at a more rapid rate with a lower price point, we really have no idea how things could've panned out (maybe actually reaching something close to GameCube sales instead of tracking 10 million below the GCN right now). The new 3DS mention was only in response to your "no company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market". Companies often segregate their market and that was just one example done by the company we are currently talking about.

 

[sörine]

"No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market"

Nintendo purposefully segregated the market by releasing the new 3DS. Same end result no matter how you want to twist it.

Technically it's not segmentation but a new platform. Same with DSi and GBC, even though they're not always treated as such.

 

[greg400]

Technically it's not segmentation but a new platform. Same with DSi and GBC, even though they're not always treated as such.

To the average consumer it's fragmentation though. On a side note Nintendo really needs to get their naming schemes together.

 

[Jams775]

Technically it's not segmentation but a new platform. Same with DSi and GBC, even though they're not always treated as such.

Huh, I didn't know the New 3DS was technically a new platform. Good lord Nintendo really knows how to confuse its potential customers don't they?

 

[vainglorious]

Technically it's not segmentation but a new platform. Same with DSi and GBC, even though they're not always treated as such.

This is correct. Regardless of public perception.

 

[greg400]

This is correct. Regardless of public perception.

Then take his Kinect example, there are countless other examples that could argue against your claim where companies fragment their market.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

But did they ever get to really implement it into any games where they'd have to patch it out or did it come optional for all games? See with the Wii U, they'd have to patch a lot of games that made use of that controller. There's a lot of effort doing that and you really need a way to get those patches to people that didn't hook up their Wii U's. Edit: Like Zombi U for instance. They'd have to rework the entire game. Then if you release a console set without those controls and their are discs in the wild without that patch, you run the risk of incompatibility which is probably a big no no for Nintendo.

slap a sticker on the package saying only playable with the gamepad for games that weren't patched out.

 

[vainglorious]

Then take his Kinect example, there are countless other examples that could argue against your claim.

The Kinect example? The Kinect is dead. It's only an example of market segmentation failing spectacularly.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

The Wii U was doomed as soon as they decided to let it be significantly weaker hardware than its competition. Now, I'm not saying good hardware makes good games, but the vast majority of AAA games won't make their way to significantly weaker hardware, and the casual crowd moved on from console gaming years before the Wii was even dead. Put those together and it doesn't matter what the price of the console is, it will only sell to Nintendo enthusiasts.

The people who really want to play Nintendo games would've bought a Wii U with or without a gamepad, and those who don't really care too much about Nintendo games wouldn't have bought it with or without a gamepad. The gamepad is not the console's problem.

So no, they shouldn't have removed it, as it only adds gameplay options and doesn't take anything away.

 

[greg400]

The Kinect example? The Kinect is dead. It's only an example of market segmentation failing spectacularly.

"No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market"

Microsoft purposefully segregated and fragmented their market to improve the sales of the Xbox One and it worked.

I can't even believe you're still trying to dance around this. Microsoft just announced Cortana for Xbox One through Kinect and they are still developing for it.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/16/8793725/kinect-games-in-development-xbox-one

 

[sörine]

Add ons are a good example of segmentation too. Things like the Famicom Disk System, TurboGrafx-CD, Sega CD, 32X, 64DD, etc.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The Wii U was doomed as soon as they decided to let it be significantly weaker hardware than its competition. Now, I'm not saying good hardware makes good games, but the vast majority of AAA games won't make their way to significantly weaker hardware, and the casual crowd moved on from console gaming years before the Wii was even dead. Put those together and it doesn't matter what the price of the console is, it will only sell to Nintendo enthusiasts.

The people who really want to play Nintendo games would've bought a Wii U with or without a gamepad, and those who don't really care too much about Nintendo games wouldn't have bought it with or without a gamepad. The gamepad is not the console's problem.

So no, they shouldn't have removed it, as it only adds gameplay options and doesn't take anything away.

It doesn't take anything away but it adds a lot to the price it retails for and no not everyone who likes Nintendo games would have gotten it despite the gamepad.

I haven't nor have any of my friends and if Nintendo's total playerbase that want to play Nintendo games is only around 10 million that would be pitiful.

 

[4Tran]

"No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market"

Nintendo purposefully segregated the market by releasing the new 3DS. Same end result no matter how you want to twist it.

The New 3DS neither fragments the market nor can it be called a new platform. It's a hardware refresh that's designed to boost the life cycle of the 3DS by a couple of years. It's really no different than other refreshes like the PS360 Slims, the Wii Mini, and the DSi. The New 3DS will share almost its entire library with the original 3DS so the ecosystem isn't going to be affected in any meaningful way.

To be fair, this tangent has nothing to do with the Wii U. Market fragmentation would have an effect on a gamepad-less Wii U, but Nintendo would have quashed the very idea long before coming to this point.

 

[greg400]

The New 3DS neither fragments the market nor can it be called a new platform. It's a hardware refresh that's designed to boost the life cycle of the 3DS by a couple of years. It's really no different than other refreshes like the PS360 Slims, the Wii Mini, and the DSi. The New 3DS will share almost its entire library with the original 3DS so the ecosystem isn't going to be affected in any meaningful way.

To be fair, this tangent has nothing to do with the Wii U. Market fragmentation would have an effect on a gamepad-less Wii U, but Nintendo would have quashed the very idea long before coming to this point.

I'm out, done responding to people who stop at one reply and don't read the rest of the conversation.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

It doesn't take anything away but it adds a lot to the price it retails for and no not everyone who likes Nintendo games would have gotten it despite the gamepad.

I haven't nor have any of my friends and if Nintendo's total playerbase that want to play Nintendo games is only around 10 million that would be pitiful.

2 things:

1) I should've emphasized this, but I wrote people who "really want to play Nintendo games" as in Nintendo enthusiasts. I know there are much more than 10 million people who like Nintendo games

2) I think this is the real problem. Fewer and fewer people get truly excited about Nintendo games anymore. At least not enough to front the costs of a new console. I suppose you could argue that removing the gamepad along with a $50 price cut might entice a fairly significant, but short term raise in units being moved, but certainly not enough to have saved the platform.

 

[Jams775]

slap a sticker on the package saying only playable with the gamepad for games that weren't patched out.

I mean, sure that's a way to handle it. But parents and grandparents buying the games for their kid might not have any idea what that means or their kid wants that specific game and "Now I have to pay another $100 for a new controller just to play this one game?" kind of thing.

I think they really missed their boat on the issue and will have to just make up for it in the future. It would have been smarter of them to just have compatibility for a screen-less controller "just in case" it didn't work out. Even if they didn't advertise it. That way they could have something to fall back on.

 

[correojon]

Replying to OP, no Gamepad would have meant no OffTv play and that´s been the greatest addition to this gen and is something I hope all consoles implement in coming hardware iterations.

 

[vainglorious]

"No company in their right mind would purposefully segregate and fragment their market"

Microsoft purposefully segregated and fragmented their market to improve the sales of the Xbox One and it worked.

I can't even believe you're still trying to dance around this. Microsoft just announced Cortana for Xbox One through Kinect and they are still developing for it.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/16/8793725/kinect-games-in-development-xbox-one

Dude, it was hyperbole with specific reference to the market for the Wii U. But if you want to argue against my choice of semantics by continuing to derail the thread by talking about the Kinect because you didn't like my choice of words knock yourself out I guess.

 

[Josh5890]

Hopefully the gamepad can looked back on as a ginnea pig. Having a screen on the controller can be great for some games like Splatoon and Mario Maker. However there isn't a need for it to be a large screen big enough to play the full game on. Make the screen smaller, keep the touchpad and you could get a much cheaper option.

Then again it may not be that much cheaper.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

2 things:

1) I should've emphasized this, but I wrote people who "really want to play Nintendo games" as in Nintendo enthusiasts. I know there are much more than 10 million people who like Nintendo games

2) I think this is the real problem. Fewer and fewer people get truly excited about Nintendo games anymore. At least not enough to front the costs of a new console. I suppose you could argue that removing the gamepad along with a $50 price cut might entice a fairly significant, but short term raise in units being moved, but certainly not enough to have saved the platform.

Ad 1. Oh then agreed, one can see as much when looking at the insane figures their core titles sell.

Ad 2. It depends on when and how it would have been implemented, if they paired it with a marquee title I could have seen a bigger uptick. Nothing would have saved the platform though only lessened the impact of its failure.

I mean, sure that's a way to handle it. But parents and grandparents buying the games for their kid might not have any idea what that means or their kid wants that specific game and "Now I have to pay another $100 for a new controller just to play this one game?" kind of thing.

I think they really missed their boat on the issue and will have to just make up for it in the future. It would have been smarter of them to just have compatibility for a screen-less controller "just in case" it didn't work out. Even if they didn't advertise it. That way they could have something to fall back on.

I never worked in retail so I haven't completely lost faith in humanity yet but from what I've seen the same could be said for DS 3DS games which are often right next to each other, getting the right pokemon game, etc.

Replying to OP, no Gamepad would have meant no OffTv play and that´s been the greatest addition to this gen and is something I hope all consoles implement in coming hardware iterations.

they already have

 

[greg400]

Dude, it was hyperbole with specific reference to the market for the Wii U. But if you want to argue against my choice of semantics by continuing to derail the thread by talking about the Kinect because you didn't like my choice of words knock yourself out I guess.

If it was actually hyperbole you wouldn't have then proceeded to continue to attack the examples provided. "The Kinect example? The Kinect is dead. It's only an example of market segmentation failing spectacularly."

 

[4Tran]

2) I think this is the real problem. Fewer and fewer people get truly excited about Nintendo games anymore. At least not enough to front the costs of a new console. I suppose you could argue that removing the gamepad along with a $50 price cut might entice a fairly significant, but short term raise in units being moved, but certainly not enough to have saved the platform.

Yup, it's really important to take a closer look at why people would buy a new console. Historically, the main motivator for new home consoles was so that they could play new games that looked better than the ones they were presently playing. The problem for Nintendo is that gamers had been playing PS360 games for a long time, and they were starting to get tired of them already. Offering yet another console that doesn't offer much value is a terrible idea, and doing so with $300-350 price tags was a nonstarter for everyone other than Nintendo fans.

 

[vainglorious]

If it was actually hyperbole you wouldn't have then proceeded to continue to attack the examples provided. "The Kinect example? The Kinect is dead. It's only an example of market segmentation failing spectacularly."

I wasn't wrong for taking the bait though. There were no game announcements supporting the Kinect at E3 this year.

 

[greg400]

I wasn't wrong for taking the bait though. There were no game announcements supporting the Kinect at E3 this year.

How many times do you want to proven wrong in one thread? lol

and I'll post this link once again for you, posted the first day of E3:
http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/16/8793725/kinect-games-in-development-xbox-one

 

[Weltall Zero]

Did we really need a third (at the minimum) thread on this?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1067653
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1100454
It's funny how every single time, it's really an affirmation posing as a question. In any case I very much doubt anyone is going to be able to convince anyone else using arguments. Some people love it, some people hate it, and they will never agree. That avatar quoting in the first page was disgusting though, I've seen few uglier cases of ad hominem.

 

[bart64]

Regardless of its success, the gamepad is awesome and it needs to stay, although maybe in a smaller and lighter form factor. It doesn't take away anything just adds a whole lot of features without requiring it's own processor, it's genius. Nintendo will figure out how to sell it with NX.

 

[vainglorious]

How many times do you want to proven wrong in one thread? lol

and I'll post this link once again for you, posted the first day of E3:
http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/16/8793725/kinect-games-in-development-xbox-one

Yeah dude sorry if Just Dance 2016 isn't on my radar. But you totally proved me wrong, good job!

 

[greg400]

Yeah dude sorry if Just Dance 2016 isn't on my radar. But you totally proved me wrong, good job!

 

[Zombegoast]

Price drop wouldn't help, the Wii 3rd party support was dead on arrival and no the controller is not uncomfortable and heavy and you may have to see a doctor if you do so.

 

[SmokedMeat]

The New 3DS neither fragments the market nor can it be called a new platform. It's a hardware refresh that's designed to boost the life cycle of the 3DS by a couple of years. It's really no different than other refreshes like the PS360 Slims, the Wii Mini, and the DSi.

It's not the same, because New 3DS has at least one exclusive game that cannot be played on the older 3DS models. It's no different than Gameboy Color which had exclusives that were unplayable on regular Gameboy models.

The Mini/Slim model systems added features, but the libraries remained 100% the same.

As for the tired Nintendo dropping the gamepad thing, no, it wouldn't have made a difference. Nintendo's got a lot of problems, but price isn't one of them.

 

[Vinland]

Technically it's not segmentation but a new platform. Same with DSi and GBC, even though they're not always treated as such.

No it is not a new platform. There are enhanced features of a current platform. Waving a marketing wand after adding a feature or two doesn't make it a new platform. It is segmenting a user base. It could be consider a text book example of.

@OP the game pad never took off around its core concepts. That being said I think marketing blunders and reading the market demand did Nintendo's current platform.