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N++ |OT| Time is money

How does the landing mechanic work? I thought in a tutorial level I played that I could land on a slanted surface no matter from how high but then a few levels later that didn't seem to be the case. Is there some technique/trick I should know?

Excuse my shitty mspaint skills but what matters most is angle and velocity. It may seem like a slanted surface is always safe but that isn't true it is just because gravity is usually the strongest force you are dealing with. If you are traveling quickly and angled directly at that slanted surface it is the same as falling straight down to a flat surface.

Pretend all these arrows are the ninja traveling very quickly towards that surface. Red arrows are certain death. Orange are high risk. Green are safe.

hcDTlNP.png


Worth adding that this doesn't account for the air control you can add, but keep in mind the amount you can adjust the angle shrinks as you approach DEATH VELOCITY.
 
It didn't even occur to me to play going through columns instead of rows.

EDIT wait I don't know the difference between a column and a row.
 
There's something very enticing about the presentation and motif of this game as a package. I am on the fence about whether or not to buy, but can barely hold on for much longer.

I really shouldn't buy, but I also feel like I owe it to the team for what must have been slaving away at for ages.

My main hesitation is that I can foresee this becoming a free PS+ game of the month in the near future. Does anyone really know if the devs are adequately compensated for such deals? Surely they get more of my buck if I purchase now, right?

Just felt like I should chime in here and post another follow up after continuing to read through this thread and the devs posts. First things first, don't feel stung by perceived lack of recognition or acknowledgment of your success here. Be content knowing that you personally created something with torrid effort and actually reached a point you could call complete. That is a moment of some intense shit that most people probably can't quite understand until they have gone through it themselves. I am not a game dev, but I completed a pretty intense graduate masters thesis. The most difficult element of that entire process was reaching a point you could comfortably consider "complete." I can sit here today and still nit-pick my own work and probably find reason to want to go back in time and work more on it...but in life there aren't always the resources--be it time or money--to meet whatever ones white whale of accomplishment might be. So for that, I heartily congratulate the N++ team.

All that being said, I have fallen in love with the entire package of this game. I didn't play much of the original N (though I was entranced by Elastomania in its day). I played a little bit of Super Meat Boy and liked it a bunch, mostly for its seemingly crazy amount of polish. But you can look at me as an example of one of those random dudes who stumbled across this game via the PSN Summer Sale promotion, watched some footage of it, realized the soundtrack behind it, took the plunge and bought it and now consider myself a convert.

Rest easy knowing that you not only created something spectacularly polished and immaculate, but you also sucked in someone via the osmosis of artistic appeal. You don't always have to strive to meet a particular demographic. I feel like I am an example of someone who has found this and am loving it because of my own curiosity and intuitive sense that this games feel was right up my alley.

And it absolutely is. Thanks.
 

XaosWolf

Member
Are those glorious N++ level shirts still being sold?

I want to buy one to spread the love.

They are and speaking from experience they are awesome. Very clear print that will make you look down at yourself and go "Man, Fuck THAT level."

This level was a brutal spike for me and my fiancee... it's the only level we've skipped so far. Pretty gnarly :(

Its pretty damn easy for player 1, but player 2 has to keep up the dodging in such a nasty place for over a minute to get all gold. D=

Me and my brother-in-law have 557 attempts, and I unlocked the 5000 deaths trophy during that.

THEN WHY ARE THEY NAMED LIKE THAT?

Alphabets go in order too! =D
 

mare

Neo Member
Oh, one little bug I encountered: when I completed N++ row E and simultaneously unlocked the
secret task info
, the gold collection markers disappeared from the Legacy section (where I'm not yet done with row E).

Okay, that sounds like a bug -- I'm assuming they're still gone/haven't come back? Thanks for reporting this!
 

mare

Neo Member
Any updates on the save bug? Haven't had it myself, but it sounds like a showstopper.

Also need that menu item description fixed. It annoys me for silly reasons. =P

EDIT: Oh by the way: thanks for the pin set and the handwritten notes are a lovely personal touch! =D

Makes me feel bad for the complaining I do here sometimes.

We're still working on it. The save system took 6 weeks to write initially, so it's a very complex thing unfortunately.. I hope it won't be too much longer because it's driving us crazy worrying about everyone. :/

Thank you! You're very welcome :)

Don't worry, we complain a lot too -- it's good to have feedback that isn't just positive, so we know how to improve in the future :)
 

mare

Neo Member
Excuse my shitty mspaint skills but what matters most is angle and velocity. .

Thank you, excellent description -- fall damage is measured by looking at the ninja's velocity compared to the angle of the surface. If you're moving along the surface (parallel to it), that's the safest case; moving directly into the surface (perpendicular) is the worst case.

So, it's both the speed at which you're moving, and the angle at which you hit the surface.

This is something we've always had a hard time communicating, thanks for helping!! :)
 

mare

Neo Member
THEN WHY ARE THEY NAMED LIKE THAT?

This was an over-correction from N+, where we had the opposite problem (everyone played in columns and wouldn't give up/move to a different column when stuck); this time we tried to make it clear that if you get stuck in a column, you can move to a different one.. but it worked too well! Alas.
 
Decided to clean up that shitty angle image I did and make something a little cleaner and easy to reference. Remember, friends, 90 degrees is not to be fucked with.

CqyZFZV.png
 

Withnail

Member
The trophies made me think the intention was to play row by row. If you're playing column-wise you'll get all three Solo progression trophies when you do the final column. Seems an odd way to do it.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Okay, that sounds like a bug -- I'm assuming they're still gone/haven't come back? Thanks for reporting this!
Actually, you know what, part of it seems to have fixed itself. Not sure when that happened. The gold markers are back on the Legacy episode grid, but don't appear on the individual levels.

Fortunately, it's only a minor inconvenience. Game continues to be fantastic :)
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
Firstly I'd just like to say that I've enjoyed my time with N++ a great deal and don't regret buying it at all. I was a fan of N+ on 360 and this has been even better.

However, and I hope you take this in the right spirit, I think you've made a mistake with the pricing/amount of content. N+ sold very well on 360 but it was significantly cheaper (800 MS points) and it also had a demo (I think the lack of demos for digital download games has really hurt them this gen along with PS+ and the 'I'll wait til it's free on PS+' attitude but that's for another discussion).

N+ is a game that you really need to play to understand if you have no experience of the series. You need to be able to feel how finely tuned the physics and sense of control are to make sense of it. Screenshots do it no justice. N+ offered that chance while N++ doesn't so far.

The thing is, whilst you may be correct in saying that when you divide the price of N++ by the number of levels then it works out cheaper per level than N+, I don't think that's how consumers think. They just see the headline price and ask whether they think that is worth it or not. Unpalatable as it may be for people who appreciate these kind of games, I suspect the price for N++ will be considered too high by many whereas N+ was priced at the sweet spot. If you'd released fewer levels for a lower price, I reckon you might have fared better, because ultimately over 2000 levels is more than most players will ever dream of seeing bar the most hardcore.

I really wish you the best in recouping the money you invested in the project though. I do think you deserve more success, I'm just not sure the market is there on consoles for 20 dollar indie platformers like this, no matter how much content there is.

These are great points. I love this game, I loved the game on PSP, and I loved the game on 360. I appreciate the style put into it, the vision, the uncompromising design going from platform to platform. It feels like a game that can be played forever, and that's pretty much what I plan on doing. I love getting a few levels in every night. I can see myself playing this in a few years. It's just rock solid, fantastic stuff.

I'm an indie dev with just two small commercial games under my belt but I'd like to weigh in my opinion for what it's worth.

Back in the XBLA and PSP days, people paid attention to game releases. Each one was its own big event, sharing the spotlight with only a few each week on any specific platform (even Steam), and reaping the benefits of not only low competition but having the benefit of all the attention. N+ was a standout. It looked like nothing on the 360, played like nothing on the 360, was priced nicely and was notoriously difficult. I think you had a solid group of fans right from that start. Certainly I was one of them.

Things have changed so drastically with this new market. There's such an over saturation of games that visual styles that were once striking are now all too familiar. The "minimalist" game. The pixel-art game. The endless runner. The local multiplayer-focused game. The survival game. The brutal platformer. There's so much noise that it's almost impossible to overcome it on your own.

Because of that, our expectations coming into any new game are fleeting. What is this game? I check a screenshot, read a description, maybe watch twenty seconds of a trailer. Oh, one of THOSE games. Nah, I'm good. And poof, it's gone. I will never seek it out again, and days later it will be buried under the deluge of new releases.

I cannot stress how important it is for devs to get out of their own way when it comes to capturing customers. Most of us are developers first, and businessmen far second. We can't help it. When I price my next game, I'll probably be thinking of all the hard work I've put into it, all the money I've invested, all the sleepless nights of debugging, the quality and uniqueness and replay value, and other things that the general consumer won't give two shits about. Then I'll get that out of my head and give it a price where it will actually sell.

That price is probably going to be $10-15 for my game. It provides a good value for customers. It gets pricing out of the way so that the customer can be sold on the game. If I'm already having to start out by convincing the customer that my $20 provides a good value for what they're getting, then I've failed. Customer attention is so much harder to get today that to lose it to a price tag is just all the more heartbreaking. It sucks to have that feeling of "underselling" your game (I think my next game is actually worth $20-25), but this isn't about making the most out of each individual purchase, it's about getting as many purchases as possible, which will only fuel more word of mouth and grow your game even further.

I'm so thankful SteamSpy exists, so that I can see if my assumptions are at least partly correct. Volume, a game by a much celebrated indie dev with a "minimalist" design priced at $20, has debuted to some low numbers if these numbers are accurate. Axiom Verge, with some amazing reviews and coverage, hasn't even broken 20k sales yet on Steam.

Some games seem to be doing great at $20. Invisible Inc. has over ~120k in sales so far. That's because it owns it's $20 pricetag. It's slick as hell in the presentation, and looks expensive. It's also a "visually simple" game but done in a style that looks like nothing I've seen, and is more akin to higher priced titles with the UI and visual choices. And, of course, it's a great game, as were the others I've mentioned.

N++ wasn't really a victim to low coverage (great media presence on some of the major gaming websites) or to search engine bugs (if anyone wanted to buy your game around the time the search engine was glitched, they would have likely known where to look with all the promotions plastered around the store). It got great coverage with the PLAY promotion. I think this game sadly sufferers from over-development (working on the game and putting money into it past the point of likely return value) and the high price tag, not to mention a whole new market where a visually minimalist design with hardcore platform mechanics isn't quite as unique as it once was, even one done as nearly perfectly as this one.

I do hope you release it on Steam at some point. If there's one thing I've learned from my own game, it's that it can have an absurdly long tail of sales thanks to livestreams and coverage by let's play/YouTubers. A demo would work great. The price is something you'll have to deal with forever. Quite honestly, the next best move is to get this on more platforms or move onto new games, because there's a hellish road to climb to try and convince new audiences on why your game is worth the money. If a Playstation promotional slot, great reviews and solid coverage won't do it, then I honestly don't know where you'd go from here.

N++ is a powerful statement against all the other hardcore minimalist platformers with an insane amount of content, perfected controls, amazing music and visual design, and sheer brilliance of just-one-more-time gameplay. For that, y'all deserve all the praise in the world.

Man, what a tough industry.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Decided to clean up that shitty angle image I did and make something a little cleaner and easy to reference. Remember, friends, 90 degrees is not to be fucked with.

CqyZFZV.png

Good for basic understanding, but I'm pretty sure your orange vectors will kill you at any somewhat significant falling velocity.
 
Good for basic understanding, but I'm pretty sure your orange vectors will kill you at any somewhat significant falling velocity.

Yep, definitely. I was trying to get across that the less perpendicular your angle the more likely your chances of survival are when traveling at a high velocity. Around 45 degrees and better feels like a good guaranteed safe zone to me.

e: that said I have had some tight angles where I was flying incredibly fast and thought for sure I was on a death trajectory but somehow survived so it is a narrow margin.
 
Great post, chubigans - lots of stuff I've been trying to say but much more elegantly.

I just want to add that last time I checked Invisible Inc., it's numbers weren't very good. Since then, it had an official Steam promotion (Daily or Weekly deal, forget which) so I'm guessing most of its sales were at under $20.
 

Takiyah

Member
Man, what a tough industry.

Tough indeed. But the challenges are well known, and ways to address them are well known. It seems a bit off to me that the devs were surprised by all of this. Also your post is great, minus the part about a demo. I haven't seen many (any) compelling #'s that demos have a good conversion rate.
 
Mario Maker is launching with 100 levels and a level editor for $60 and people are falling all over themselves for it, myself included I admit. I understand that nostalgia and aesthetic is a hell of a drug, and that Nintendo polish is not to be ignored, but in comparison $20 for the amount of content and fine tuning N++ delivers is completely reasonable.

In this thread I have seen devs who have clearly been bullied by ios, steam, and other factors that asking for more than the cost for a drink or two at starbucks is bullish and offensive. Fuck that. Metanet said no. Cheer them on. Don't join the chants that indie design is a race to the bottom. Don't shame them for being so audacious as suggesting they are worth more than the absolute minimum the market will pay.

Not aimed at anyone in particular. More the general vibe of the response.
 

XaosWolf

Member
I still dont get it: Who are these people who are willing to frivolously spend $15 on a game, but act as if an additional $5 is going to demolish their bank account?

If spending an extra $5 on a game would bankrupt them, then they really shouldn't be in for those impulse buys at all, and soubd advice woyld be top get out of the hobby altogether considering standard game prices.

Adding on to the problem of the lack of a demo, I reckon some people are probably also upset that the game will be unlikely to go on sale. (If they read any of Metanet's blogs/interviews)

I am more than willing to buy independent games at whatever price they ask, but I'll still do that usual common sense trick of researching my purchases.

That said, I'll echo other's sentiments and say that the upcoming extra content should be sold as an add on pack. Either that or N++ will have to stay as the base price and advertise this new stuff as free new content.
 

*Splinter

Member
I'm missing the platinum trophy and a hidden trophy that nobody has. Is the missing one bugged or just super hard to get?
I think mare mentioned an all-gold trophy, so... yeah, both :(

I just got done with the X row, got all the gold in it apart from the very last level :(

Question about the ? levels:
I think you unlock each one by completing the secret requirements in the corresponding episode (I've done A-00 to C-00 and can see that ?-A-00 to ?-C-00 are unlocked). However, E-00 is currently impossible to all-gold, but there are leaderboard times on ?-E-00, how is this possible? Is my assumption wrong?
 

BlakeofT

Member
I think mare mentioned an all-gold trophy, so... yeah, both :(

I just got done with the X row, got all the gold in it apart from the very last level :(

Question about the ? levels:
I think you unlock each one by completing the secret requirements in the corresponding episode (I've done A-00 to C-00 and can see that ?-A-00 to ?-C-00 are unlocked). However, E-00 is currently impossible to all-gold, but there are leaderboard times on ?-E-00, how is this possible? Is my assumption wrong?

So all gold in every level is required for the platinum? No thanks, I won't be going for that anytime soon.
 

mare

Neo Member
We're looking into the issue with the remaining option funlocks/platinum; sorry about this, thanks for asking/reporting it!

Sadly, the end of development was chaotic, and we were forced to change a few things at the last minute; I'm pretty sure we would never require you to collect all the gold in the game!! Anyway: it will be fixed!(note: we will still be fixing the 3 impossible-gold levels we're aware of, so that it's possible to get 100%)
 

boinx

Member
Just wanna say that I was legit surprised and excited when I was browsing the soundtrack and found out that it was full of legit techno and minimal dnb tracks from artists I've been following for years. Excellent choices. And the game of course is the high quality you can expect from N. It's pretty much one of the only platformers I enjoy these days considering the genre is far from my favorite.
 
Getting there a column at a time. I don't have any names handy but there have been a couple of real asshole levels. I also don't recall this theme name but feel confident it is the best of the bunch. Quelch? Quench? Something like that.

smcyF52.jpg
 

soultron

Banned
Just got caught up on this thread (vacation for 2wks, jonesing to play N++ again now that I'm home!) and am saddened to hear the game isn't selling well. It's great that you're all being cordial here. After watching certain devs on social media meltdown under the pressure of their game(s) not selling well, I'm so glad you're not making those same mistakes.

This aside, it's really great that you're reading the thread and communicating/noting things that will (need to) be patched in your coming updates. That's super nice support, very personal. Because you're independent, I'm so so so glad that you're using this freedom to communicate with your base.
(I work in games but can't really ever talk about the stuff I work on GAF because AAA bullshit.)

Really want to wish the three of you the success you deserve with the remainder of N++'s PS4 development and whatever else you plan to do with the game, elsewhere. :)

I'm going to go back to the game now! Wahoo!
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
I finally got around to playing this again. I barely checked it out after buying at launch.

I finished up the intro levels and finished up through A-10 in solo going across the row.

I'm really digging it now that I'm getting the hang of it.
 

sheaaaa

Member
Detaching ourselves from the realities of selling video games in 2015 for a moment, N++ is absolutely fantastic. It is so well-formed, taking the kernel of a beautifully-tuned, momentum-driven platform experience and layering on so much on top of it that the final product is worthy of standing with anything this medium has produced. I'm normally not a fan of the genre of music you've used, but it works with the visuals so well to create a mood that is unique to N++.

Unfortunately, it is not enough today to release a great game and let it stand on its own. I guess at heart I'm an idealist in the same way, hoping that great game = acclaim and sales.

But I still think that there are some things you shouldn't compromise on. The game is worth $20 and it's ridiculous to claim it should priced at $15 as if there is a yawning chasm of difference between the two price points. Likewise, more content is always better and it is one of the absurdities of this industry that some people say they would be more likely to buy the game if you had put in, say, half the levels. I even made a thread about this and was astounded to see some people say that the amount of levels put them off because they knew they'd never be able to finish everything.

I hope N++ ends up being one of those long-tail success stories. Getting it up on Steam will probably take serious work on your end but hopefully it'll be a chance to redo your launch, but this time, better. A 25%-off featured deal during a major Steam sale won't do any harm as well.

Just keep going, MetaNet. You guys are amazing and N++ is one of my favourite games of the year.
 

mare

Neo Member
@soultron: thank you!! :)

@sheaaaa: thanks so much. We are *determined* to do whatever it takes to make this game a success. Sadly this is looking to be quite a struggle, but I'm hopeful that we can figure it out eventually. Cheers!
 
It's a shame to hear that this game isn't more popular. I would have thought it would be at least a decent seller on PS4 considering what else is on there at the moment.

I bought a PS4 today and this was the first game I purchased. :)
 
It's a shame to hear that this game isn't more popular. I would have thought it would be at least a decent seller on PS4 considering what else is on there at the moment.

I bought a PS4 today and this was the first game I purchased. :)

This is anecdotal but as soon as my group of friends found out online multiplayer was out we no longer cared which sucks because this was one of our most anticipated games
 
@soultron: thank you!! :)

@sheaaaa: thanks so much. We are *determined* to do whatever it takes to make this game a success. Sadly this is looking to be quite a struggle, but I'm hopeful that we can figure it out eventually. Cheers!
Any news/updates on whether this is coming to PC? Don't have a PS4, but I'll be buying this if it comes to PC. N was the game for me during elementary and high school
 
I have a feeling that a gold run on that level seems more intimidating than it actually is because it would feed into the whole clockwork thing but I was too exhausted when I completed it to try.
 
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