Support NeoGAF

[Toa TAK]

Another neat thing about this flick is how it smokes out the casual racists and sexists, as well as the forever alone crowd.

 

[Ristlager]

We did though. Snoke's manipulation. We found out Luke was training Jedi and Snoke was in the shadows manipulating Ben, Ben turned against them and Luke vanished feeling responsible.

Ok, didn't pick up on that. But that still seemes weak compared to what it took to turn Anakin. Ben from what we have seen doesn't have any troubled childhood.

 

[Talon]

This is just a such a dumb and lazy response to dealing with criticism of a character you like. I love TFA and I think Rey is an awesome character. That doesn't preclude me from having problems with both.

Gary Stus get shit all the time. That's why it's thing. Perfect characters in general just aren't a good thing, regardless of gender.

Mary Sues and Gary Stus usually suck. Sometimes they work, but that depends on what kind story is told. James Bond and Ethan Hunt for example, are Gary Stus that headline major blockbuster action movies in which the entire premise is that they are super spies that can pretty do and get away with everything. We go into those movies expecting and WANTING them to be awesome badasses at every turn and getting their way.

When people watch an epic story unfold like in Star Wars, they expect and want well written characters that are flawed, well written, well realised and developed.

ANH Luke is an idiot. There isn't really a whole lot to like about him aside from him doing the right thing. RoTJ Luke is almost a completely different person, and one most of us - afaik - really like, because he went through his trials and tribulations and developed.

Rey isn't Luke, no, but she also has no real development outside of what is convenient, and she is written in such a way that - as much as I like her - it undermines previous precedent and storytelling because she is pretty much perfect from the jump and proceeds to be given everything without putting in any time or effort. There is nothing I can think of to impune her personalithy for. Because she's too perfect, i.e. a Mary Sue. And that has nothing to do with her being a woman.

Bullshit.

When has anyone said, "Han is too good at flying. Ethan Hunt is suspiciously great at barely making jumps." or let's ignore all these damn superhero movies.

Luke, for fucks sake, is an expert X-wing pilot on his first fucking X-wing flight.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Fuck no. All of that is a slippery slope to this:

http://i.imgur.com/4thrz.gif

Besides the absolutely stupid overdone shit like the swinging on wires, lava surfing and some dialogue that fight is great.

Obi-Wan on defense 99% of that fight while Anakin just fighting wildly and aggressive.

 

[BraXzy]

Jesus, I still hadn't gotten through the old thread. This one is less daunting I suppose, off I go reading ;D

 

[gutter_trash]

Another neat thing about this flick is how it smokes out the casual racists and sexists, as well as the forever alone crowd.

I hope that Rey and Finn get full mouth to mouth French style in Episode 8

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Ok, didn't pick up on that. But that still seemes weak compared to what it took to turn Anakin. Ben from what we have seen doesn't have any troubled childhood.

Really? We don't know enough about his turn to make that judgement yet. Most would argue Anakin's reasons for turning were pretty unconvincing.

 

[Luigi87]

So I saw the movie last night and I loved it. Star Wars is essentially my second favourite franchise of anything (The Legend of Zelda being number one).

Being said, even though you could see Han's death coming it did not lessen the impact it had on me. I have had a lot of characters I've liked in movies, books, games, and television who've died... But seeing Han die, a character who I've loved for a majority of my lifetime, I dunno, but I could feel something in me break, like a part of my childhood dying? It really, really hit me hard, and while I didn't do so, I still wanted to cry.

Overall, great movie and looking forward to Episode VIII.

 

[brandonh83]

Ok, didn't pick up on that. But that still seemes weak compared to what it took to turn Anakin. Ben from what we have seen doesn't have any troubled childhood.

It's a different thing. There was an entire trilogy devoted to why Anakin was seduced.

 

[Boke1879]

The main issue with the lightsaber fights was imo the camera work.

Especially in AOTC. God damn that Anakin and Douku fight was shit.

 

[Aureon]

lol this is the most scrutinized film I've ever seen on this forum ever since I've joined gaf

the hype is real

This is the most scrutinized film in the history of cinema.
Nothing ever had this size of a fanbase, this dedicated, this starved.

 

[EatChildren]

Phasma struck me as sequel bait. Mildly established now, probably used as a secondary antagonist in the second film thanks to motivations set in the first.

I'm a little crabby with the marketing there because I was excited to see her play a role other than a causal convenient extra.

 

[LionPride]

Another neat thing about this flick is how it smokes out the casual racists and sexists, as well as the forever alone crowd.

I've never seen a post be so right

 

[diaspora]

Bullshit.

When has anyone said, "Han is too good at flying. Ethan Hunt is suspiciously great at barely making jumps." or let's ignore all these damn superhero movies.

Luke, for fucks sake, is an expert X-wing pilot on his first fucking X-wing flight.

Luke was an experienced pilot already. He was going to apply to the imperial academy at that point. Han was an older veteran smuggler.

 

[Ristlager]

I posted my theory in the other thread, but my idea is that basically Kylo has always been second best. He wasnt as strong as Luke, nor Vader. Along comes Rey as a child to be trained, and he realizes that he wont even be as strong as her, so he goes as far as to imitate Vader in the killing of all the Jedi trainees, hoping that brings him the power that he wants. Rey escapes with old man's help, thus why old man knows where Luke was.

This one I really can get behind. Good theory, and a very sound one. But J. J. should have included this in his film, as it would have made me sympathy with him much more. Now he is just a whiny brat..

 

[Brakke]

Really? We don't know enough about his turn to make that judgement yet. Most would argue Anakin's reasons for turning were pretty unconvincing.

That's why it's weak. This movie forgot to tell the most interesting stories it's built on.

 

[Frog-fu]

What is this in reference to?

It's a blanket insult meant to be vague to avoid a response. Just ignore it.

Bullshit.

When has anyone said, "Han is too good at flying. Ethan Hunt is suspiciously great at barely making jumps." or let's ignore all these damn superhero movies.

Luke, for fucks sake, is an expert X-wing pilot on his first fucking X-wing flight.

Read my posts again but this seems rather reactionary.

Han is a smugger. Lying and flying is what he does a for living. He is still a pretty shitty person in some regards and he is far from perfect at everything.

Ethan Hunt is a Gary Stu that works well in the material he is portrayed in. He a big dumb super spy that we like seeing in big dumb super spy action movies. That's where Stus work. Not in epic stories.

Luke is established early on as a pilot. It's his one real talent.

 

[Luigi87]

Phasma struck me as sequel bait. Mildly established now, probably used as a secondary antagonist in the second film thanks to motivations set in the first.

I'm a little crabby with the marketing there because I was excited to see her play a role other than a causal convenient extra.

Didn't they toss her in the trash compactor at the Starkiller Base... meaning wouldn't she have blown up with the planet?

 

[brandonh83]

Star Wars is essentially my second favourite franchise of anything (The Legend of Zelda being number one).

Here's someone that knows exactly what's up.

 

[diaspora]

Phasma struck me as sequel bait. Mildly established now, probably used as a secondary antagonist in the second film thanks to motivations set in the first.

I'm a little crabby with the marketing there because I was excited to see her play a role other than a causal convenient extra.

I wasn't annoyed with Phasma's screentime, I was annoyed that she was played as a chump for the whole movie.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Phasma struck me as sequel bait. Mildly established now, probably used as a secondary antagonist in the second film thanks to motivations set in the first.

I'm a little crabby with the marketing there because I was excited to see her play a role other than a causal convenient extra.

Still don't understand why she wasn't the one with the baton fighting Finn.

 

[BronsonLee]

Another neat thing about this flick is how it smokes out the casual racists and sexists, as well as the forever alone crowd.

Why does this black guy have a LIGHTSABER?!

This is the most scrutinized film in the history of cinema.
Nothing ever had this size of a fanbase, this dedicated, this starved.

This fanbase literally invents theories and plot points out of thin goddamn air

This was always going to happen

 

[ProudCanuck]

People saying Rey as Mary Sue? Does that make Luke Skywalker as Gary Stu? Considering he single handedly destroyed the Death Star and nearly killed Vader ?

I feel people forgot what happened in a new hope

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Han fucked off from Leia because looking at her reminded him of his son, Luke fucked off from Han and Leia because he fucked up their son. R2 fucked off from everyone cos fuck it.

So Leia is the only one with a sense of responsibility. The other two ran away while she kept the Rebel Alliance/Resistance going...

 

[WadiumArcadium]

That's why it's weak. This movie forgot to tell the most interesting stories it's built on.

And you don't think that'll be explained further in the future? We don't need the entire explanation now.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Right. Luke flying around on a speeder and shooting animals somehow prepares him for flying an X-Wing to blow up a military installation. But Rey's too perfect.

Also, Rey only succeeds after several failed attempts before she can mind-trick the stormtrooper, and she's on the run for *most* of her fight with Ren.

Do be fair, it does seem Luke has quite a bit of flying experience. Particularly when Biggs vouches for him with the rebel flight leader before taking off.

Luke's abilities were latent much like Rey's but she exhibits far too much ability for not having been trained. It's not like Luke witnessed Obi Wan doing the Jedi Mind Trick, and then was able to pull it off himself. We didn't see him use that move until Return of the Jedi. Rey seems to have abilities that are far too well developed at this stage of the story.

Now, all of that said, I'm willing to bet that there is more to the story that will be revealed yet. My theory is that there were survivors of Luke's Jedi Academy, and they has their minds wiped and were stashed throughout the galaxy to keep them safe, or something along those lines. Rey may have been one of those students, and her training is starting to come back out now that the Force is awakening, or something along those lines.

Either way, we can argue about Rey's abilities until the next movie, but I feel they went to great lengths to indicate she has some other things going on that we don't know about yet.

 

[brandonh83]

Didn't they toss her in the trash compactor at the Starkiller Base... meaning wouldn't she have blown up with the planet?

I took it as a joke. They probably just locked her up or something.

Still don't understand why she wasn't the one with the baton fighting Finn.

Yes agreed, that would have been awesome.

 

[Toa TAK]

People saying Rey as Mary Sue? Does that make Luke Skywalker as Gary Stu? Considering he single handedly destroyed the Death Star and nearly killed Vader ?

He does get his ass beat constantly, though.

 

[ProudCanuck]

He does get his ass beat constantly, though.

So does she throughout

 

[diaspora]

People saying Rey as Mary Sue? Does that make Luke Skywalker as Gary Stu? Considering he single handedly destroyed the Death Star and nearly killed Vader ?

Luke could go either way. He has the benefit of having established piloting experience in the film prior to joining the x-wing crew.

 

[jett]

Phasma struck me as sequel bait. Mildly established now, probably used as a secondary antagonist in the second film thanks to motivations set in the first.

I'm a little crabby with the marketing there because I was excited to see her play a role other than a causal convenient extra.

I think Phasma is just an example of Abrams straight up trolling. Why is Gwendoline Christie even doing the PR tour? Max Von Sydow has more lines and screetime than her. Hell, Abrams even said she was his favorite new character in the movie. Muthafucka was just swerving us.

 

[Boke1879]

Ok, didn't pick up on that. But that still seemes weak compared to what it took to turn Anakin. Ben from what we have seen doesn't have any troubled childhood.

I do believe they'll expand on things in the next movie but just thinking on it. It's clear Kylo is unstable. I would assume that's why Leia sent him away to train with Luke. Maybe Kylo hated his family for that?

He clearly has HUGE resentment for Han. Maybe Han was in and out of the picture. Then it only takes Snoke to play on those insecurities. Meanwhile he's still untrained at least not full in the darkside and he's still struggling the light side in him.

I personally think he'll be one of the more interesting villains that we see develop and I think they did a much better job showing his struggle much better than anything we saw of Anakin in the prequels. The acting goes a long way lol.

 

[ProudCanuck]

Luke could go either way. He has the benefit of having established piloting experience in the film prior to joining the x-wing crew.

So does she ? She mentions she has piloting experience based on running towards the fighter ship before she goes to the MF

 

[Toa TAK]

So does she throughout

I guess, but Luke didn't kick Vader's ass in the first film.

Personally I think he fits the bill, too, but I can see reasons for the other side.

 

[brandonh83]

I think Phasma is just an example of Abrams straight up trolling. Why is Gwendoline Christie even doing the PR tour? Max Von Sydow has more lines and screetime than her. Hell, Abrams even said she was her favorite new character in the movie. Muthafucka was just swerving us.

If we get 8 and 9 without Phasma getting her due, I agree. For now I just don't know yet. It's also possible a lot was cut.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Obi-Wan on defense 99% of that fight while Anakin just fighting wildly and aggressive.

Makes sense. Sith are driven by anger and are more on the offense and Jedi are more passive and defend themselves.

 

[Frog-fu]

People saying Rey as Mary Sue? Does that make Luke Skywalker as Gary Stu? Considering he single handedly destroyed the Death Star and nearly killed Vader ?

I feel people forgot what happened in a new hope

This argument has already been adressed many times. Even on the last page.

See? Now we're talking -- and I appreciate the picking apart and substantive discussion. Much better than just throwing accusations over the fence. Leave that nonsense on Twitter, we can go longform!

Respectively:

- They do refer to Luke's piloting ability. He talks about some craft he piloted, shooting at "womp rats," and how like the Death Star mission it would be. Another rebel pilot calls Luke "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim" -- which a significant portion of the entire galaxy. One point I made when saying Rey suffered from Mary Sueness was that it was a side effect of her backstory being totally redacted for now. Here's an example where a little exposition papered up the cracks in Luke's case. You may not buy it, but at least ANH showed they were aware of the need for Luke to be good at this stuff before just waltzing in, and tried.

- Luke making the Death Star shot is such a huge moment in the film. The tension around him even attempting to do that belies what a huge ballsy move it was. He did it with the guidance of Obi-Wan, speaking to him and giving advice during the crucial moment. And it was just a moment of having impeccable perception/awareness. Leading up to that moment, Luke had explanations of what the force is, what it feels like, had done a little training with Obi-Wan, and again, practically had him as a co-pilot. It's supposed to make you nervous that he would even try, because you know he's shaky. Personally, I think it was pretty believable, as far as "people mastering magical forces" stories go.

- Luke having a minor moment of success during training with a Jedi master doesn't seem unbelievable to me.

- Grappling hook across a gap... That was kinda uncharacteristically Tarzanish for a farm boy, I guess. But it's not something that requires a lot of specific training to do, or knowledge of the force. If you had the grappling hook on ya, and it was try that or die, maybe you would even give it a shot. All you really need is to have it fastened on you and the good fortune to have hooked it onto the right thing.

Now let's look at Luke's near-death experiences in which other people had to save his green ass.
- He gets knocked out by sandpeople and has to be saved by Obi-Wan
- He gets shoved to the ground by some barfly and has to be saved by an Obi-Wan again
- Almost gets taken out by some garbage chute creature with tentacles
- Would've gotten rekt by Vader if Obi-Wan hadn't distracted him with the duel
- Would've gotten shot down by Vader if Han Solo hadn't gotten the bogeys off his tail ("You're all clear kid!")

And that's just off the top of my head. This Luke guy sure has some nice friends, because he really, really ought to be dead.

Rey suffers not a single embarrassing moment in this movie. Personally, I see a huge difference.

And listen, I'm also saying it's okay, and that I enjoyed it. But the Mary Sue thing? That is what it is.

 

[Count Dookkake]

What is this in reference to?

Mary Sue complaints are informed by sexism and perhaps a touch of misunderstanding of the term.

Complaints about Finn and Rey's budding relationship are informed by racism and/or forever alone status.

It's a blanket insult meant to be vague to avoid a response. Just ignore it.

Get fucked.

 

[diaspora]

So does she ? She mentions she has piloting experience based on running towards the fighter ship before she goes to the MF

"How did you do that?"

"I don't know"

If you were to remember ANH, Luke was vouched for by others as being a strong Tatooine pilot that wanted to join the imperial academy. Had Rey simply been written to say that she's had to fly before- whether due to scavengers or whatever nobody would take issue. Nobody minds that she successfully KOs Finn since she has to compete with other scavengers.

 

[Dead]

I think Phasma is just an example of Abrams straight up trolling. Why is Gwendoline Christie even doing the PR tour? Max Von Sydow has more lines and screetime than her. Hell, Abrams even said she was his favorite new character in the movie. Muthafucka was just swerving us.

I'd be feeling pretty pissed if I was one of the guys spending money on all day Phasma mercy before the movie opened

Phasma was shit tier. Dengarr >> Phasma

 

[uncelestial]

People saying Rey as Mary Sue? Does that make Luke Skywalker as Gary Stu? Considering he single handedly destroyed the Death Star and nearly killed Vader ?

I feel people forgot what happened in a new hope

You're late. I ain't forgotten nothin'!

 

[Monocle]

Everyone agrees that Snoke and Darth Hair are awful tho right?

Snoke didn't work for me. Kylo Ren is one of the best things about TFA, an awesome subversion of the natural expectation that he'd be a cookie cutter Vader 2.0. Kylo is more like Vader in reverse. (Well, if you consider the series in chronological order.) He makes an impressive entrance as this intimidating masked Sith, only to be humanized and brought low over the course of the film. He's like a bratty Anakin done right, with motives that make sense. His attitude fits his background and works thematically.

Kylo's face reveal is supposed to be underwhelming. It plays into the idea that he's a rather inadequate Vader fanboy, just a strong but undisciplined bully with incomplete training. Kylo was humiliated in TFA. It's a safe bet that he'll return in Ep. 8 more powerful and dead set on vengeance against Rey and Finn. This is a compelling villain in the making. Imperfect and somewhat sympathetic, with well established motivations.

 

[Ristlager]

Really? We don't know enough about his turn to make that judgement yet. Most would argue Anakin's reasons for turning were pretty unconvincing.

I find his resonings in the movies good enough, the writing and acting left a bit to be desired. But seeing how arogant and "useless" the jedi order was, how Palpatine had manipulated him since he was 8, and him not coping with the death of his close ones, there was enough to make it logical.

 

[ProudCanuck]

I guess, but Luke didn't kick Vader's ass in the first film.

Personally I think he fits the bill, too, but I can see reasons for the other side.

And again. Kylo isn't even Vader in this movie . He is at the same level as Luke between episode 3 and 4. He hasn't even finished his training, the only thing that keeps his power up is his anger

 

[Luigi87]

I took it as a joke. They probably just locked her up or something.

That's possible... You never know with Han <_<

 

[Messypandas]

So Leia is the only one with a sense of responsibility. The other two ran away while she kept the Rebel Alliance/Resistance going...

Probably the most undervalued statement in the film. Han and Luke were cowards, meanwhile Leia is on the frontlines again.

Get fucked.

Take it down a notch.

 

[jett]

Luke could go either way. He has the benefit of having established piloting experience in the film prior to joining the x-wing crew.

He didn't single-handedly do anything either. Han Solo saved him right before Vader was about to murk him in ANH. Vader psychologically and physically dismembered him in ESB. Vader had to save his bitch-ass in Jedi too.

 

[Frog-fu]

Mary Sue complaints are informed by sexism and perhaps a touch of misunderstanding of the term.

Complaints about Finn and Rey's budding relationship are informed by racism and/or forever alone status.

Get fucked.

No. Not from me at least, and I haven't seen anyone else in here make any suspect comments.

I am rooting for Finnrey. Undeniably, racists will hate and that's partly why I'm rooting for it.

Ayyy. Let it all out.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Mary Sue complaints are informed by sexism and perhaps a touch of misunderstanding of the term.

Complaints about Finn and Rey's budding relationship are informed by racism and/or forever alone status.



Get fucked.

I was ready to respond but I need you act more like a adult first.

 

[brandonh83]

That's possible... You never know with Han <_<

I don't see them as straight up killers. In combat they'll fuck over their enemies but Phasma was detained by them at that point and I don't see those characters throwing her into a trash compactor to be slowly crushed alive.