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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Trigonometrize.
Member
The prequels are full of shit that feel like are squeezed into the canon of the universe awkwardly and boarder line contradict-ally when they should've been there to reinforce. Anakin being the chosen one is a good example. He's powerful as fuck in the OT, but he's apart of a smaller story between him and his son and there's nothing to suggest he's some space wizard jesus who's supreme power is the key to saving the universe. He literally just picked the emperor up and threw him over a railing. Anybody could do that. His part in the story was about his redemption, not his power.
In terms of lightning hands, this was something that was clearly hinted to be the Emperor's thing. It was at least one of his higher display of power the could fuck Luke up in an instant. Luke just bested his father but the lightning brought him to his knees immediately. Yoda went out of his way to warn Luke of it. So when Dooku shows up with it in AOTC, my argument for dismissing it is that is falls into the "squeezed into the canon of the universe awkwardly and boarder line contradict-ally" column rather than something that feels right. It may be canon, but it's hackneyed, and that's not something I want to just ignore.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
FlashbladeGAF said:
You mentioned the Original Trilogy, so I was just showing a scene that showed Luke visibly angry.
TFA has elements of the OT, Lightsaber in the snow(ESB), Taking down the shields before destroying a death star by flying into it (ROTJ), only most of the main elements are inverted.
Luke wanting to leave his Desert planet, while Rey wants to stay...
...a force user wanting to be a jedi versus a force user wanting to become a sith, ...etc..
If we are going to assume that was anger at the end of TFA and not confidence, then both characters won against their Darkside equals by taping into their anger.
While Luke's victory ended up giving him an understanding of himself and the Force (seeing himself in Vader in the Dagobah cave/ Both having robotic hands) at the end of his journey to become a Jedi, Rey's anger and victory over Kylo could lead to her being even more unsure of herself and the new journey she has started on to become a Jedi, if at all (not wanting the lightsaber[assumption]).
heliosRAzi
Banned
Boy do I have a movie for you!
Anakin is the best character evar!
I hope you know I'm joking
LegendofLex
Member
This seems really unlikely, given the symbolism that surrounds the ending:
- Rey is left on the opposite side of the chasm from Kylo Ren; notably, she's on the right side
- Starkiller Base explodes to reveal a still-formed sun inside. i.e. the light within outshines the darkness that threatens to smother it
- C-3PO had bitched about not being recognizable because of his red arm, but in the end he has his old arm restored (mirrors Rey becoming a more formed person, contrast against Kylo being maimed)
All of that is obscenely heavy-handed symbolism.
I think what's more likely is that we see Kylo force Rey into situations she's even less prepared for, and her handling it with less grace (possibly because now she's more cognizant of what it's like to use the force, rather than letting it use her).
No he doesn't.
Trigonometrize.
Member
It would not only be uninteresting, it would be nonsense. Rey is clearly shaping up to be powerful as fuck. She already beat Kylo in a lightsaber duel and in mind games to an extent. The Emperor wanted Luke before him and Vader had even met, so put that into perspective. Snoke is procrastinating on tempting her tbh.
LegendofLex
Member
Watch the very last scene he appears in.
If that's not his old arm, it certainly isn't the red one he'd had earlier.
heliosRAzi
Banned
He definitely does not have the red arm at the end, when he waves as Rey leaves in the Falcon.
The Librarian
Banned
Rey is definitely over confident. At the very least, very sure of herself. I can see this biting her in the ass in VIII.
It already did in the frieghter
This is why I'm not worried about Finn's character going forward. Many seem concerned about him being tossed to the wayside in the next movie. But as you said. He's public enemy #1 alongside Rey and Luke. Kylo has a legit beef with Finn and I have no doubt Phasma survived. She herself now has a personal vendetta against him. Not to mention his face is known among everyone in the FO.
Trigonometrize.
Member
At this point in the story, how so? She was confused at her ability to pilot the Falcon, hid her ability to close the door on the monster at the right time from Finn, ran away from Kylo for half the lightsaber fight, and then this scene: doesn't exactly look like the face of being very sure of herself to me.
It boggles my mind.
First well executed female Jedi in the trilogy? Succumbs to the Dark Side of the Force in the next movie because "Lol, women and emotions, amiright? Huh, huh?!"
Rey was certainly tempted by the Dark Side during her confrontation with Kylo, at least that's the read I got on it, but that's par for the course for the Force Sensitive heroes in Star Wars. Luke used anger to best Vader in Jedi, then rejected the killing blow. Rey used anger towards the end of her fight (it was after she focused her mind and started fighting back from the cliff, and wounded Kylo), but, much like Luke, she rejected the killing blow. She could have done it before the earth opened up between them, when she did the overhead downward swing then kick that knocked Kylo to the ground. But she didn't.
I just don't see a Dark Side trajectory for her arc. I see someone who, much like Anakin, is incredibly gifted in the Force (and if Anakin is her grandfather, it makes sense as well). I see her journey paralleling Anakin's and Luke's in that she is older and untrained, with a lot of emotional baggage to sort through. Way more than Luke ("Wah, mean old Uncle Owen won't let me go to Tosche station to pick up some power converters!" vs. "My family abandoned me on Jakku under the 'care' of some scumbag named Unkar Plott who forces me to scavenge for goods, then clean and scrub them, then swindles me out of my gross moldy dehydrated sponge bread loaf.") Rey has some shit to deal with that makes her very interesting compared to Anakin and Luke. Anakin chose to leave Shmi and become a Jedi. The tragedy for him is that by the time he comes back to her, she is dying. Rey's sad, lonely life is much more tragic. Anakin at least had Obi-Wan, who viewed him as a brother, even when the Jedi Councils were being twat-waffles to him. Luke had Owen and Beru, who, while strict, clearly loved him. Rey had...Rey. And the hope that her family would come back is what gave her the strength to put up with Unkar's shit. It's just really freaking sad.
I'm interested to see how she handles that past once she's with Luke. Doesn't mean she'll go Dark Side, only that it adds a lot more tension to any scenes in which she is tempted by the Dark Side, because they will truly be tests of her character. Tests that I think she will overcome.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I don't really see the overconfidence either. Even in Veelk's example, I don't think it's there. She's sure of herself, but not overconfident. It seemed more like an innocent mistake.
LegendofLex
Member
It's verbally conveyed in a single scene.
Han: "Here, take this."
Rey: "I think I can handle myself."
Han: "I know you do, that's why I'm giving it to you."
Han: "You know how to use it?"
Rey: "Sure. You pull the trigger."
Han: "You've got a lot to learn."
After defeating Kylo and then getting training from Luke. I could see her being a bit overconfident if her and Kylo meet again.
The Librarian
Banned
She is very sure of her ability to take care of herself.
Oh, yeah, I wasn't arguing that she was overconfident per se, but just pointing out that she has made mistakes that bite her in the ass. I don't know if she was particularly confident about pressing any particular button, so I agree it's not overconfidence per se, but she is sure of herself and she is capable of making mistakes and has done so. Librarian even pointed out that it wasn't necessarily overconfidence, but self-assuredness.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
The way she's holding the Saber towards Luke in the end is definitely a sign of giving it to him. It's a question of whether she'll want to down the route of being trained. She definitely seems sure of herself at the end of it, when Leia tells her 'The force be with you' and she smiles.
Literally nobody said that. So what if she goes dark side? You wouldn't think that's interesting? It has nothing to do with her gender. If it was Finn in her position, I'd want him to go dark side as well.
That she is. But like the scene when Han hands her the gun and says. That could have gotten her killed against the troopers. It's subtle but like you said. It could come back to bite her in the ass in some way in Episode 8.
Trigonometrize.
Member
That's a good counter-example that I didn't think of.
I can definitely see it potentially manifesting into over-confidence later I just didn't see it in TFA.
Liquidsnake
Banned
Im supposed to be saving for a wedding, but I want the Kylo Ren Hot Toys figure so bad. What do I do?
Inferno313
Banned
Put it on the registry, duh!
Tell your wife you went back to the one thing you were good at....
buying Star Wars figures
heliosRAzi
Banned
Of course.
To me, overconfidence is basically overstating your abilities with certain things. I think her abilities lives up to what she boasted (and I don't think she boasts at all).
LegendofLex
Member
If you look at the subtext of what's going on there, she's asserting that she can handle herself and then Han is literally (figuratively) arming her so she can do that; the implication is that she can't handle herself, she just thinks she can. But she needs to tap into tools - tools she didn't yet have - to do so. It's a foreshadowing of what will eventually happen with the lightsaber.
She's not a perfect mechanic; she messed up the fuses on the freighter.
She's not a perfect pilot; she fumbled the takeoff of the Falcon and they took numerous hits during the skirmish.
She's not a perfect shot; she misses all kinds of shots with the blaster.
She's not a perfect Jedi; she fumbles every Force ability she tries at least once until the Force pull at the very end, and doesn't gain the upper hand in the fight against Kylo until he reminds her that the Force exists, at which point she starts to rely on it in a way she hadn't been before.
She doesn't boast, but she constantly puts herself/is put in situations where these abilities are essential, and it doesn't always have fantastic results.
She's definitely going to be tempted and like others have said. She showcases anger pretty obviously in 2 scenes. I also still stand by that she would have killed Kylo Ren if the planet didn't split them up. She really had not reason NOT to. I wouldn't have even blamed her if she did. This man. Killed Han, Incapacitated your friend, Hunted you down, kidnapped you etc.. Why wouldn't she have killed him if given the chance?
FlashbladeGAF
Member
The symbolism is there, but a character's inner struggles don't have to run parallel to that.
I'm not saying Rey will travel down the Darkside.
Again I think she was more confident than pissed off. Breezy said Luke didn't show visible anger, but I argue that Luke's anger was clearer than Rey's during their fights against their Dark side counterparts.
Also TFA borrows elements from the Original Trilogy and inverts them.
In the case of our heroes expressing anger (if we are going to assume it was anger in the case of Rey), the shared element would be both heroes obtain victory thru anger over their dark side equals...
...the inversion would be:
Luke's anger and victory led to clarity (him accepting himself and becoming a Jedi), while Rey's anger and victory led to her taking the path to find herself which by the end scares her (her expression and wanting to give the lightsaber in a "I don't want this burden", instead of "I'm returning what belongs to you".
The Librarian
Banned
Rey is too sure of her ability to take care of herself. She also suffers from abandonment issues, has a tendency to get indignant when interacting with others, and is incredibly self-righteous.
That's just off the top of my head.
Saw this. Lots of recycling. Han Solo's death was definetly the most memorable moment, altough Kylo Ren wasn't really convincing bad guy. Maybe (i hope) because he wasn't done with his training. Entertaining movie whatsoever, little less recycling/fan service and it could have been better. But i kinda want to see it again.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I don't think that's overconfidence. And in all of those, she is really good at them despite initial fumbling.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Kylo's definitely not finished his training. Snoke even says to Hux to bring Kylo to him to complete his training.
Then again, he's not supposed to be Vader 2.0
CloudyTuba
Member
I pretty much just assumed she would remain faceless without even thinking about it. I hope she stays that way.
If she doesn't, I'd prefer if they save it until the third movie of the trilogy and only for one final scene. Let's say just for example that the First Order is wrecked and the troops are on the run, our heroes encounter a worn Phasma who has lost her helmet, face sweaty and with hints of blood. Final fight ready set go.
That sort of thing.
While youre not wrong and she would likely be punished, I'd be pretty okay with it if the plot just skimmed over this part altogether and has her return to her post in the next movie as if it never happened except that she now has a personal vendetta against the heroes.
I said it can be subtle. I think the seeds are there. Ultimately it's up to the writers with what they do with her character, but I do think there are seeds in place if they want to do that. I mean why shouldn't she be sure of her ability. She takes to the force quite quickly, Beats Ren, Flies the Falcon etc..
I think this is where Luke comes into the fold though. I think Rey will be a great learner, but Luke may sense something in her and tell her "don't let this shit get to your head" Or "Assume you'll win every encounter" or something along those lines.
But I'd more agree with her being sure of herself. Anakin was overconfident. Obi told Anakin "lets take him together" Anakin rushes in at Dooku and is immediately tossed to the side.
Assuming Kylo kills Snoke, I wonder if he'll retain the Supreme Leader title or declare himself a new emperor.
Considering Boyega has said that Episode VIII is darker, if we really want to put the heroes in a screwed over situation for Episode IX, I think that would be a good set up. Have the FO somehow come out on top in the war against the NR/Resistance, Kylo declares it the reborn Empire, Luke dies (in some sort of Obi-Wan-ish way that's a short term defeat but long term victory), and Rey/Finn/Poe are left to pick up the pieces.
Considering Boyega has said that Episode VIII is darker, if we really want to put the heroes in a screwed over situation for Episode IX, I think that would be a good set up. Have the FO somehow come out on top in the war against the NR/Resistance, Kylo declares it the reborn Empire, Luke dies (in some sort of Obi-Wan-ish way that's a short term defeat but long term victory), and Rey/Finn/Poe are left to pick up the pieces.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah. Alot of people are forgetting that to be a Light Side Jedi, you have to remain calm and be stoic. Don't let pride nor anger take a hold of yourself. Any sign of emotion pulls you closer to the dark side-That's why Jedi are trained from kids, because they have it drilled into them that emotion is a temptation to the dark side. Any emotion. From happiness to sadness to being prideful to being confident, to being angry...
Like, being a Jedi is fucked. You have to be a cold, stoic, uncaring machine. Which is why I want to see them explore a mix of the Dark and Light side, and Rey has already shown calm in some instances and emotion in others.
That most likely won't happen until 9 anyway, if it happens.
QuantumZebra
Member
Indeed. About the only flaw (if it can be considered one) is that Rey doesn't want to accept that her parents aren't coming back.
Rey not only gets to the be badass Master Jedi of the new trilogy, but also the cool pilot of the Falcon with buddy Chewie at her side.
Lifejumper
Member
I dont think they will kill of luke in VIII already. Would be too obvious.
you reminded me how disappointed I was by SW interpretation of balance, that's not how I'd do it, not like this.
Someone being able to balance on the verge of dark-light side all the time and use both is in balance and can bring balance to the word, would be my interpretation and that's even harder than the light side, because it complex and includes playing with the Force on both sides, being perfectly in balance with oneself and universe, well maybe not perfectly but close to it.
Inferno313
Banned
I doubt Lucasfilm would go this far, but I think it would arguably more interesting and shocking, and really re-assert Kylo as a huge threat, if he ends up killing one of the new main characters in VIII. Like, losing Finn or Poe would be a lot more shocking and effective at this point than losing Luke or Leia.
LegendofLex
Member
What?
One of my favorite things about the way Yoda was handled in the prequels is that you can see a tremendous outpouring of sorrow and compassion from him for Anakin in Episode II, as he senses his pain from afar.
In Episode III, when Anakin comes to him for advice, he correctly recognizes the source of Anakin's anguish: his feelings of attachment to Padme and his desire to seek power to keep her with him forever. It isn't the answer Anakin wants to hear, but it's the correct one, since Anakin's obsession with saving Padme and becoming powerful enough to make things go his way really does become his undoing.
None of that is possible without having a deep understanding of and being deeply in touch with emotions.
In fact, we've never really seen a case where the Jedi were actually demonstrably wrong about how they approached fear, anger, hate, and suffering. We've only seen cases where they fail to reach those who are in danger of slipping to the dark side.
That's just another reason to hate PT, garbage teachings that just not correlate with reality. And another reason to prefer kotor jedi. Back to the basics.
I think you really run the risk of people hating Kylo in the wrong way if he kills another lead from the OT. His confrontation with Han was enough to set the precedent, I think, and his character should evolve in different ways.